Titanium rear shock springs - few vendors

Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/1/2015 10:29pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2015 10:34pm
dogger315 wrote:
TT, In contrast to the anti Titanium comments, here is my pro Titanium opinion: I have raced Ti shock springs for many years and wouldn't even...
TT, In contrast to the anti Titanium comments, here is my pro Titanium opinion:

I have raced Ti shock springs for many years and wouldn't even think of running a steel spring anymore.
I guess I'm one of those racers that likes the "feel" as you pointed out in your post. To reinforce that, a while
back I ran into a situation where I was forced to switch from Ti back to steel. It didn't go well.

My normal Ti spring (RCS) was fouled by the back of the engine case on my CR500. Initially, I switched to
a steel spring because it had a smaller OD. That solved the clearance problem, but I didn't like the way the
rear suspension felt and after lots of testing, determined it was the characteristics of the steels spring causing
the problem. Now I really wanted to get a Ti spring back on the bike. I contacted RCS and they suggested
a smaller OD spring and a different perch and spring sleeve. I installed all of that, radiused the case a couple
of mm and I had my fix.

Here's a picture of the smaller OD spring on my Showa shock and the radiused case:



For comparison, here's a picture of the normal diameter Showa spring on a Showa shock. This shock is for a CR250
where the case is smaller and clearance is not an issue:



I've also noticed a lot of chatter about Ti spring rates being inconsistent. In my experience, that's more about improper
labeling than actual improper rates. Any spring rate can be calculated by knowing the modulus of elasticity of the material
(spring Titanium = 36,000 psi), coil diameter, spring length and number of coils. Any reputable spring manufacturer will be
more than happy to provide you with those numbers. Armed with that info, you can calculate (or verify), the rate and order
the correct spring for your application. Be advised, Ti springs are "livelier" than steel, so if you run a 5.4 kg/m for instance,
you'll want to specify a 5.3 kg/m Ti spring. Also, be prepared to do some testing to set your shock comp. and rebound up
for the new spring. In addition to the weight savings you already mentioned, due to fewer coils, Ti springs are less likely to
experience coil binding, and Titanium springs provide a more consistent and linear rate compared to steel - just the opposite
of what you have been reading. Another nice addition to your spring stack is a Torrington bearing mounted between the top of
the spring and the pre load retainer. When your spring compresses it actually binds a little due to rotational forces. This
bearing allows the spring to rotate and reduces friction between the spring and the retainer. These bearings are available
from Factory Connection, Pivot Works, etc.

Any time you ask for information on the internet, you're going to get a lot of "opinions". It's a good idea to research
something and get those opinions, but in the end, if you really want to try something new (within reason of course),
go for it. It's the only way to grow as a racer or a wrench.

My two cents.

dogger
.
dogger315
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3/2/2015 9:22am
TT, check the PM I sent you.

If the 5.3kg/m spring you have now is working for you then you can safely go .1 kg/m lighter or keep the same rate when
switching to Ti.

dogger
Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/27/2015 9:22pm
Hi Dogger,

With the Ti spring, do you find that you have to slow down the rebound dampening?

I finally got the RCS Ti spring. It looks high quality, but I was disappointed in the weight savings. I was hoping for about 1.5 pounds weight savings, but their spring is 1/2" shorter and slightly bigger inner diameter so you have to use 2 aluminum
spacers to make up the difference. With the spacer weight included, it was only 0.90 pounds lighter than the stock steel
spring it is replacing. Not that impressive.. the coils are much thicker than steel, even though there are less coils (6.5 vs 8 coils). Titanium is normally 54% the weight of steel and the aluminum (used for the spacers to make up for the shorter length) is even lighter than titanium, but this spring is 73% of the weight of the steel spring. The top thick spacer is not a complete 360 degree ring, it is about a 320 degree C-shape which doesn't seem very strong, but I suppose that if it works for JGR, it must be strong enough for me. This will be an interesting experiment. I think I will have to dent the muffler a little to get it to fit.

mike
dogger315
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3/28/2015 9:22am
Hi Dogger, With the Ti spring, do you find that you have to slow down the rebound dampening? I finally got the RCS Ti spring. It...
Hi Dogger,

With the Ti spring, do you find that you have to slow down the rebound dampening?

I finally got the RCS Ti spring. It looks high quality, but I was disappointed in the weight savings. I was hoping for about 1.5 pounds weight savings, but their spring is 1/2" shorter and slightly bigger inner diameter so you have to use 2 aluminum
spacers to make up the difference. With the spacer weight included, it was only 0.90 pounds lighter than the stock steel
spring it is replacing. Not that impressive.. the coils are much thicker than steel, even though there are less coils (6.5 vs 8 coils). Titanium is normally 54% the weight of steel and the aluminum (used for the spacers to make up for the shorter length) is even lighter than titanium, but this spring is 73% of the weight of the steel spring. The top thick spacer is not a complete 360 degree ring, it is about a 320 degree C-shape which doesn't seem very strong, but I suppose that if it works for JGR, it must be strong enough for me. This will be an interesting experiment. I think I will have to dent the muffler a little to get it to fit.

mike
Can you take some pictures?

Not sure why the extra diameter unless some changes have been made in design, what rate is your spring?

You shouldn't have to run extra spacers, just different ones. PC sells a spring cup for Ti springs and I use the old style short
spring retainer on the bottom (see the picture I posted earlier). You can make the new, long spring retainer he same by turning
it down on a lathe. RCS went with the longer retainer because some folks were running their springs with no, or very little pre-
load and they were unseating from the cup. As for the shorter (1/2"), length, makes no difference because you set the pre-load
down to the new spring length. On top I use a pair of anodized aluminum locks and a Torrington bearing. My set up is 1.5 lbs
lighter than the steel spring and retainers set up.

Yes, you will have to adjust the rebound and compression to compensate for the Ti spring.

dogger

The Shop

MaxPower
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3/28/2015 12:08pm
Finding a suspension unrideable because of a Titanium spring. There are some pretty incredible riders on this site
Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/28/2015 1:25pm
Hi Dogger,

Here is the Renton 5.3 kg Ti spring on the left next to a new 5.3 kg Honda spring. It looks high quality, but again, I was a bit disappointed in the weight savings.


You have the older generation shock which I believed used a longer/ heavier spring? I know the spring on my Honda CR250 2ST is a lot heavier than this newer generation 4ST spring. Honda did a lot to make the 2009-2012 generation bike a lot lighter. RCS sells only one size spring for both the Showa and Kayaba large body 50mm shock even though the dimensions for the stock Showa and Kayaba springs are a little different. They then use spacers to make this one size spring fit the Showa and Kayaba shock. This has been the case for the last 3-4 years at least, since I had been considring getting one. They told me that the top spacer is optional depending if I have enought thread to get the needed preload.

I already have the FC aluminum lock rings with the Torrington bearing.

I was wondering if there were any rough guidelines on which way to go with the rebound and compression settings compared to a steel spring...ie.. a little less compression, and a lot more rebound dampening type of thing.

mike
Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/28/2015 1:26pm
MaxPower wrote:
Finding a suspension unrideable because of a Titanium spring. There are some pretty incredible riders on this site
MaxPower,

could you elaborate?

mike
Mtek
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3/28/2015 1:51pm
1.5 lbs saved for my RMZ, but this is going A kit too...never put a Ti on the stock to weigh. Ti spring, same RCS with spacers. I backed off rebound, you will find it is more livelier.


Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/28/2015 2:50pm
Hi MTEK,

I noticed that you and I have the same plain black RCS logo on the spring whereas Dogger's spring has a different logpo with red. How do you like the Ti spring performance? When you say "back off on the rebound", dont you mean MORE rebound dampening to slow it down? How much, hiw many clicks did you cange the rebound setting?

thanks!
mike
Mtek
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3/28/2015 3:01pm
Hi MTEK, I noticed that you and I have the same plain black RCS logo on the spring whereas Dogger's spring has a different logpo with...
Hi MTEK,

I noticed that you and I have the same plain black RCS logo on the spring whereas Dogger's spring has a different logpo with red. How do you like the Ti spring performance? When you say "back off on the rebound", dont you mean MORE rebound dampening to slow it down? How much, hiw many clicks did you cange the rebound setting?

thanks!
mike
Black logo is what they sent me, it was from Renton as I live just south of them. I'm not sure about the diff color logo. Yes, back off rebound, which is increasing the dampening, apologies for my wording I cant give you a definitive difference between the Ti and the steel as the shock is diff than my stock one too. I installed it during the winter, started off that way as well. Hopefully others with more experience can help you here.
JBernard_401
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3/28/2015 8:04pm
what is going on with that top spacer setup like that? why not run the preload rings on top of the steel spacer then the spring?
dogger315
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3/29/2015 8:10am
Hi Dogger, Here is the Renton 5.3 kg Ti spring on the left next to a new 5.3 kg Honda spring. It looks high quality, but...
Hi Dogger,

Here is the Renton 5.3 kg Ti spring on the left next to a new 5.3 kg Honda spring. It looks high quality, but again, I was a bit disappointed in the weight savings.


You have the older generation shock which I believed used a longer/ heavier spring? I know the spring on my Honda CR250 2ST is a lot heavier than this newer generation 4ST spring. Honda did a lot to make the 2009-2012 generation bike a lot lighter. RCS sells only one size spring for both the Showa and Kayaba large body 50mm shock even though the dimensions for the stock Showa and Kayaba springs are a little different. They then use spacers to make this one size spring fit the Showa and Kayaba shock. This has been the case for the last 3-4 years at least, since I had been considring getting one. They told me that the top spacer is optional depending if I have enought thread to get the needed preload.

I already have the FC aluminum lock rings with the Torrington bearing.

I was wondering if there were any rough guidelines on which way to go with the rebound and compression settings compared to a steel spring...ie.. a little less compression, and a lot more rebound dampening type of thing.

mike
OK, so you are using a short body shock and the OE spring is different. That makes sense from a weight savings standpoint.
Also, the spacer is there if you have to crank down on the pre-load and could possibly run out of threads due to the shorter
spring length. That makes sense also. Looks like I'm getting schooled on the differences between the new and old shock
styles.

As far as the different "RCS" logos, I have springs with both styles. The spring in that one picture dates back a ways and
was a special spring RCS came up with to help with my case clearance issue.

When setting up for a Ti spring, i recommend you start with the baseline settings in your log book and go from there. Static
and dynamic sag should be the same. As for hi and low speed compression and rebound, that will be a trial and error
approach. You will have to test and tune until you get the action you want. The Ti spring will rebound faster and with a
little more force. It will also feel livelier - not as dull as a steel spring during compression. it's hard to describe all the
differences which is why I just say ride it and see. Just for a reference, here are my shock settings:

Low speed compression: 12
High speed compression: 2.5
Rebound: 14
Spring rate: 5.2
Pre-load: 9mm
Race sag: 102-105mm
Static sag: 30-40mm

dogger


Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/29/2015 10:38am
Thanks Dogger. That is helpful. Even the big suspension houses cant offer much in terms of recommendations. Not enogh people using them. If your shock was initially set up for a steel spring, it doesnt seem to be so far out of the ordinary. I wasnt sure of the sag recommendations might be different. The livlier spring action doesnt cause the rear to kick up or force the nose down over jumps, does it?

mike
Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/29/2015 10:41am
Mtek wrote:
1.5 lbs saved for my RMZ, but this is going A kit too...never put a Ti on the stock to weigh. Ti spring, same RCS with...
1.5 lbs saved for my RMZ, but this is going A kit too...never put a Ti on the stock to weigh. Ti spring, same RCS with spacers. I backed off rebound, you will find it is more livelier.


MTEK,

Is your upper spacer also C-shaped like mine? I would think there is a lot of pressure on that spacer landing from a big jump, causing the spacer to open up and slipe upwards. Doesnt sem lilke a smart design.

mike
dogger315
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3/29/2015 3:11pm
Thanks Dogger. That is helpful. Even the big suspension houses cant offer much in terms of recommendations. Not enogh people using them. If your shock was...
Thanks Dogger. That is helpful. Even the big suspension houses cant offer much in terms of recommendations. Not enogh people using them. If your shock was initially set up for a steel spring, it doesnt seem to be so far out of the ordinary. I wasnt sure of the sag recommendations might be different. The livlier spring action doesnt cause the rear to kick up or force the nose down over jumps, does it?

mike
There shouldn't be a big difference between the two types of springs from a set up standpoint. The difference in feel is subtle
and a few clicks on the various adjusters is all that's usually required to get the shock to behave the way you want.

When I say the shock feels "livelier", I'm not talking about lively enough to pitch the nose down, it's more along the lines of
a more planted rear tire feel. Once you get it dialed in, you'll know what I'm talking about and you're going to like the results.

Look forward to your ride reports.

dogger
Tokyo_Tiddler
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3/29/2015 4:06pm
Thanks again Dogger.. This really gives me a good idea where to start and what to be expecting. I will post my impressions along with some pictures of the bike. Not quite as cool as the ride(s) you put togther, but there are a lot of cool parts on the ride and some works parts from Japan and Europe. I came across some billet CNC fork lugs in Europe for the Kayaba forks, some carbon fiber and HRC motor mounts, and a lot of titanium. I was able to take 12 lbs off the CRF450 so that it now weighs the same as my CR250 2T. The Carbon fiber fuel tank, Think seat foam, backfire screen removal, and titanium exhaust took the most weight off the bike.

mike
Tokyo_Tiddler
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1/26/2018 4:56pm
I came across this old thread and realized I never provided real life feedback after riding with the Ti spring. After cranking in a little more rebound compression, I did not notice a huge difference with the steel spring. I also understand that the Ti springs that RCS has been making in more recent years is a little different than in the past to reduce breakage and provide a more consistent spring rate. I am happy with it.
1
wilmar13
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2/5/2018 2:44pm
I spent some time looking into the idea of ti spring for shock as I know they are big in mtn bike and it is huge weight savings, at least once you are far along the path of diminishing returns....

It looks like the functional spring rate of ti changes big time with temperature (even relatively small range, like 0-100degree C) and steel does not until you get into temps the spring will never see in use. It explains why they work on mtn bike where they stay close to ambient (which is also where they are tested and tuned), but not so great on Moto where they sit close to exhaust and engine.

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