KDub..."450's have to go".

Skippie
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886
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Location
USA
3/24/2015 10:18pm
burn1986 wrote:
Windham has some good points, but he has absolutely no power to change anything. Its good he's vocal I guess, but it means nothing.
cslacker wrote:
I get Windham saying it. What surprises me is Fro. He works for an oem with no 125.
I don't think Emig works for Kawi anymore. McGrath took that over I believe.
#991
Posts
1685
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/24/2015 10:22pm Edited Date/Time 3/24/2015 10:24pm
burn1986 wrote:
Windham has some good points, but he has absolutely no power to change anything. Its good he's vocal I guess, but it means nothing.
cslacker wrote:
I get Windham saying it. What surprises me is Fro. He works for an oem with no 125.
Skippie wrote:
I don't think Emig works for Kawi anymore. McGrath took that over I believe.
Typical Honda rider, most end up Green with envy. "The grass is Greener on the other side"
3/24/2015 11:02pm
cslacker wrote:
I get Windham saying it. What surprises me is Fro. He works for an oem with no 125.
Skippie wrote:
I don't think Emig works for Kawi anymore. McGrath took that over I believe.
#991 wrote:
Typical Honda rider, most end up Green with envy. "The grass is Greener on the other side"
If you're not on a wing, you don't have a prayer.

Or something.
KennyT
Posts
4399
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Location
Vista, CA, USA
Fantasy
3/25/2015 12:10am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 12:13am
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
Well there are a lot of things adults can do to live life on the edge. Our talk was about children being killed and are they really aware of the consequences of their actions at such a young age. He being a retired surgeon showed concern that kids that age have bodies that cannot withstand blunt force trauma to the skull area which he said is much softer that a fully developed adult. Plus the ability of a child to know when to back it down in terms of knowing what is too great of a risk.


I live in So Cal and witness lane splitting first hand every day. Have also seen my share of covered bodies and mangled sports bikes over the years. Being in San Diego and the heavy military presence some of the craziest riders are our servicemen. But they were always adults, never witnessed a 7-12 yr old lane splitting on the freeways.
But it is actually a very good comparision to some of the amateur parents who put their kids lives at stake by letting them do 60' triples while their bodies are still not fully developed to take the pounding they do when they crash. Might by just as safe sending them down I -5 during rush hour on a sport bike

The Shop

#991
Posts
1685
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/25/2015 12:17am
KennyT wrote:
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as...
I have been doing a remodel for a customer down in La Jolla. He is maybe mid 70's now but spent most of his life as a top notch surgeon. One of those guys that still travels the world to give speaking engagements.

Anyway we were talking today and I brought up the issue of young kids dying on a pretty regular basis in what is my favorite hobby. He rattled on for hours and honestly most of it went over my head but I did take in a couple of things from our discussion.

First of all he had no idea children were out racing like they do. I pulled up a couple of videos on my ipad and he was amazed at these small kids flying through the air on their bikes and he was not surprised there are fatalities. He told me due to a child's body, and mainly his brain/skull area, That there is no way it can take the trauma that a fully mature adult body could withstand. He threw out the age of 23 for skull maturity, I have no idea. He also told me what I have thought all along, and that is one day there will be a parent that will bring this into the courts when they lose a child and once that happens it's going to be over. I asked him what he meant by that and he said the liabilty cost will be so high and the fear of multi million dollar judgements will have the tracks shut down.

It will be interesting to see if any changes will be made in the sport if this trend continues. I'm not concerned with the pros, they know the risk. it's the kids that I hate hearing about and I'm not too sure they understand the consequences
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
KennyT wrote:
Well there are a lot of things adults can do to live life on the edge. Our talk was about children being killed and are they...
Well there are a lot of things adults can do to live life on the edge. Our talk was about children being killed and are they really aware of the consequences of their actions at such a young age. He being a retired surgeon showed concern that kids that age have bodies that cannot withstand blunt force trauma to the skull area which he said is much softer that a fully developed adult. Plus the ability of a child to know when to back it down in terms of knowing what is too great of a risk.


I live in So Cal and witness lane splitting first hand every day. Have also seen my share of covered bodies and mangled sports bikes over the years. Being in San Diego and the heavy military presence some of the craziest riders are our servicemen. But they were always adults, never witnessed a 7-12 yr old lane splitting on the freeways.
But it is actually a very good comparision to some of the amateur parents who put their kids lives at stake by letting them do 60' triples while their bodies are still not fully developed to take the pounding they do when they crash. Might by just as safe sending them down I -5 during rush hour on a sport bike
I'd argue it would be safer Tongue
KennyT
Posts
4399
Joined
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Location
Vista, CA, USA
Fantasy
3/25/2015 12:21am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 12:23am
SLO1667 wrote:
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic...
you should have asked him his opinion on 150HP/200mph street bikes or 900HP Porches that anyone can buy and drive on the streets or the topic of lane splitting or football.
KennyT wrote:
Well there are a lot of things adults can do to live life on the edge. Our talk was about children being killed and are they...
Well there are a lot of things adults can do to live life on the edge. Our talk was about children being killed and are they really aware of the consequences of their actions at such a young age. He being a retired surgeon showed concern that kids that age have bodies that cannot withstand blunt force trauma to the skull area which he said is much softer that a fully developed adult. Plus the ability of a child to know when to back it down in terms of knowing what is too great of a risk.


I live in So Cal and witness lane splitting first hand every day. Have also seen my share of covered bodies and mangled sports bikes over the years. Being in San Diego and the heavy military presence some of the craziest riders are our servicemen. But they were always adults, never witnessed a 7-12 yr old lane splitting on the freeways.
But it is actually a very good comparision to some of the amateur parents who put their kids lives at stake by letting them do 60' triples while their bodies are still not fully developed to take the pounding they do when they crash. Might by just as safe sending them down I -5 during rush hour on a sport bike
#991 wrote:
I'd argue it would be safer Tongue
Haha....I think you would be right! Any kid that can handle a modern MX track would have no problem lane splitting. I am sure they possess better riding skills than the guys I see doing it
Crush
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Location
Sydney, AU
3/25/2015 12:37am
Just finished listening to it... Gotta say I was pretty impressed with some of the points and the fact that they all raised so many issues... Hopefully it's a precursor to a lot more conversation.
Jimfunn
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437
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Location
GB
3/25/2015 3:45am
I haven't read all of this but the tracks in America that I see on videos seem so fast and full of huge jumps. Over here we have much slower, tighter tracks with smaller jumps generally. Over here, most people will put in the same laps times (give or take a second or 2) whether they are on a 125/250/450 as a rider can only go so fast & track controls the speed rather than a wide open 4th gear straight track with wide, open turns.
mehow2g
Posts
251
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Location
AU
3/25/2015 4:28am
Removing or fixing Supercross ridiculousness will fix it.
bama205
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1519
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Location
Williamson County, TN, USA
3/25/2015 5:55am
But do we want pro tracks that have smaller obstacles? Do we want LaRocco's Leap to go away? I'd hate to see that. I don't want...
But do we want pro tracks that have smaller obstacles? Do we want LaRocco's Leap to go away? I'd hate to see that. I don't want to go to a pro national and watch the best riders in the world racing on a track that I could clear everything on. Young racers have to learn the big stuff prior to turning pro. Maybe obstacles like sharp edge landings from doubles could go away. I don't know. A happy median is there somewhere.
See bubba hitting it on a 125, now that was more fun to watch than pretty much everyone hitting it nowadays
bama205
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Location
Williamson County, TN, USA
3/25/2015 6:00am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 6:04am
bvm111 wrote:
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit...
listened to the Pulp show today at work.... really good listen and great dialogue from some of the industry insiders that know and give a shit about the sport for over 2 hours.

If you make statements like "its motocross" or "they will make bigger longer table tops" means you didn't listen and are un willing to contribute to the discussion.

when I am 4th gear tapped down a rough straight on my 2006 KX250 and some fat ass motors by me on a 450 there is something wrong
Lmao. I know exactly how you feel. I remember riding at mill creek in 250b on my 125. I was actually riding good that day (rare) and on rails.

So fun shifting all the time, but I remember coming around the inside of this small uphill triple, and seat bouncing the shit out of it to barely clip the top. I was making the turn like this ( it was the only way

This bigger guy squares up the inside. Makes a turn, like this
Jaybird67k
Posts
566
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Location
Vidor, TX, USA
3/25/2015 6:20am
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
#991 wrote:
:huh: A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas. The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no...
Huh A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas.

The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no matter how long the tracks are. It's the whole point of the sport.

The Idea Isn't to eliminate the danger. The Idea is to mitigate the danger as much as possible. That really shouldn't be so hard to comprehend Dry

You want to take on gravity with jumps that launch you 30+ feet into the air. Gravity will have It's fair share of wins.
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land.
The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times just like faster ET times in Drag Racing and Nascar and any or most racing even skiing.
The whole point of racing is to be faster than everyone else.....lol.

Jason
hvaughn88
Posts
8361
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Location
Conway, AR, USA
3/25/2015 6:24am
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
do this for me, next time you see Mr. Windham, politely stroll up to him and let him know he better get his curling game strong for the next winter Olympics. And a job opportunity, get real dude.
Jaybird67k
Posts
566
Joined
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Location
Vidor, TX, USA
3/25/2015 6:42am
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
hvaughn88 wrote:
do this for me, next time you see Mr. Windham, politely stroll up to him and let him know he better get his curling game strong...
do this for me, next time you see Mr. Windham, politely stroll up to him and let him know he better get his curling game strong for the next winter Olympics. And a job opportunity, get real dude.
Hmmmm........So you agree that all danger can be eliminated from the sport and you don't agree with my statement?
"You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt."
Why would you want to eliminate danger from the sport is the question.
I have had plenty of friends die and critically injured in this sport we love but it will not stop unless we stop riding completely and then people will still die other ways. I agree there are things that can mitigate injuries and danger but like I said competitors will circumvent to be faster even so I accept the risk and move forward.

I'm assuming you also don't think Kevin, which I really like as do most, is not trying to seize upon a monetary moment under the "safer for you" attitude?
I work in petrochemical and there are some millionaires out there that think they made us safer and our environment cleaner but they didn't they just drove prices up and slowed us down. If you don't do as much work you won't have as many injuries..........guess what? People are still dying at my facility and all the others.

Jason
hvaughn88
Posts
8361
Joined
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Location
Conway, AR, USA
3/25/2015 6:44am
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
hvaughn88 wrote:
do this for me, next time you see Mr. Windham, politely stroll up to him and let him know he better get his curling game strong...
do this for me, next time you see Mr. Windham, politely stroll up to him and let him know he better get his curling game strong for the next winter Olympics. And a job opportunity, get real dude.
Jaybird67k wrote:
Hmmmm........So you agree that all danger can be eliminated from the sport and you don't agree with my statement? [b]"You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous...
Hmmmm........So you agree that all danger can be eliminated from the sport and you don't agree with my statement?
"You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt."
Why would you want to eliminate danger from the sport is the question.
I have had plenty of friends die and critically injured in this sport we love but it will not stop unless we stop riding completely and then people will still die other ways. I agree there are things that can mitigate injuries and danger but like I said competitors will circumvent to be faster even so I accept the risk and move forward.

I'm assuming you also don't think Kevin, which I really like as do most, is not trying to seize upon a monetary moment under the "safer for you" attitude?
I work in petrochemical and there are some millionaires out there that think they made us safer and our environment cleaner but they didn't they just drove prices up and slowed us down. If you don't do as much work you won't have as many injuries..........guess what? People are still dying at my facility and all the others.

Jason
What in the hell are you talking about?? Where did I say that all danger can be eliminated? And no, I don't think Windham is "trying to seize upon a monetary moment under the 'safer for you' attitude."
Jaybird67k
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566
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Vidor, TX, USA
3/25/2015 6:54am
Easy there big fella !
Let me ask a simpler question.
Do you think 5 or 10 years down the road after all the safer stuff takes place that people will still get hurt or die racing and riding dirt bikes?

Jason
#991
Posts
1685
Joined
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/25/2015 6:55am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 6:57am
Jaybird67k wrote:
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we...
After Scott Kalitta died in drag racing they said they didn't have enough shut down area at some tracks and the Drag racing authorities said we will make it a 1000' instead of 1/4 mile since most large engine catastrophes happen in the last few feet of the strip. Jim Head, a well renown racer raised hell and said don't you see we will just push the engines harder and we will still have more explosions and crashes.
He was right because they are setting record times at shorter distances now and blowing up just as many engines and it's no safer.
Don't you guy's see?
You can't eliminate danger from a dangerous sport. Man will always circumvent a way to be more competitive and people will still die and get hurt.
Anyone who disagrees needs to take up a different sport such as ice curling.
Kevin Windham just sees a job opportunity........that's all.

Jason
#991 wrote:
:huh: A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas. The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no...
Huh A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas.

The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no matter how long the tracks are. It's the whole point of the sport.

The Idea Isn't to eliminate the danger. The Idea is to mitigate the danger as much as possible. That really shouldn't be so hard to comprehend Dry

You want to take on gravity with jumps that launch you 30+ feet into the air. Gravity will have It's fair share of wins.
Jaybird67k wrote:
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land. The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times...
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land.
The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times just like faster ET times in Drag Racing and Nascar and any or most racing even skiing.
The whole point of racing is to be faster than everyone else.....lol.

Jason
No. The point of MX racing is to cross the line first. The fastest doesn't always do that in MX/SX. Ie, Trey Canard.

Drag cars etc will run down the strip on their own. It's all about times and speed.
Jaybird67k
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566
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Location
Vidor, TX, USA
3/25/2015 7:00am
#991 wrote:
:huh: A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas. The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no...
Huh A brighter person would have lengthened the run off areas/shutdown areas.

The whole Idea of drag racing is to get faster. That's gonna happen no matter how long the tracks are. It's the whole point of the sport.

The Idea Isn't to eliminate the danger. The Idea is to mitigate the danger as much as possible. That really shouldn't be so hard to comprehend Dry

You want to take on gravity with jumps that launch you 30+ feet into the air. Gravity will have It's fair share of wins.
Jaybird67k wrote:
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land. The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times...
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land.
The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times just like faster ET times in Drag Racing and Nascar and any or most racing even skiing.
The whole point of racing is to be faster than everyone else.....lol.

Jason
#991 wrote:
No. The point of MX racing is to cross the line first. The fastest doesn't always do that in MX/SX. Ie, Trey Canard. Drag cars etc...
No. The point of MX racing is to cross the line first. The fastest doesn't always do that in MX/SX. Ie, Trey Canard.

Drag cars etc will run down the strip on their own. It's all about times and speed.
The fastest always wins in SX or MX. If you take the laps and add the times for the entire race the guy that wins has the fastest entire time duration.
Unless I'm missing something.

Jason
3/25/2015 7:08am
This is a specious argument. Anybody who's seen a mini race lately knows those kids are going plenty fast to hurt themselves just as bad. Those kids are doing huge triples and crazy stuff that could just as easily go wrong and result in the same thing as on the bigger bikes. The CCs of the bikes is not the problem, you could take away some of the power and there will still be guys doing the same thing, pushing the bikes to the limit and carrying amazing amounts of speed. A person can do the same thing on a bicycle - even with no motor.

The only way anything would ever change is a very broad, everyone involved, mass effort to change all of the tracks that are used in competition motocross. That would still not stop someone from building their own track with crazy obstacles, but it would help to reduce the tragic injuries during any kind of competition. Obviously, this would be a massive effort and not very likely. But expecting some kind of reduction in the power of the bikes to result in any lowering of the number of injuries is dreaming. No correlation at all.

Unless, they restrict everyone to pw50s.
#991
Posts
1685
Joined
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Location
Melbourne, AU
3/25/2015 7:09am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 7:16am
Jaybird67k wrote:
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land. The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times...
They couldn't lengthen some tracks because they didn't own the land.
The whole point of MX and SX is to go faster also. Faster lap times just like faster ET times in Drag Racing and Nascar and any or most racing even skiing.
The whole point of racing is to be faster than everyone else.....lol.

Jason
#991 wrote:
No. The point of MX racing is to cross the line first. The fastest doesn't always do that in MX/SX. Ie, Trey Canard. Drag cars etc...
No. The point of MX racing is to cross the line first. The fastest doesn't always do that in MX/SX. Ie, Trey Canard.

Drag cars etc will run down the strip on their own. It's all about times and speed.
Jaybird67k wrote:
The fastest always wins in SX or MX. If you take the laps and add the times for the entire race the guy that wins has...
The fastest always wins in SX or MX. If you take the laps and add the times for the entire race the guy that wins has the fastest entire time duration.
Unless I'm missing something.

Jason
Yeah, I suppose Laughing .Assuming I meant over the entire race duration and not one lap Tongue . He'd have the fastest Average speed over an entire race duration in that case. Doesn't mean he'd be the outright fastest rider in the race lol.

gt80rider
Posts
7149
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Location
Boulder, CO, USA
3/25/2015 7:20am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 7:27am
Jaybird67k wrote:
Easy there big fella ! Let me ask a simpler question. Do you think 5 or 10 years down the road after all the safer stuff...
Easy there big fella !
Let me ask a simpler question.
Do you think 5 or 10 years down the road after all the safer stuff takes place that people will still get hurt or die racing and riding dirt bikes?

Jason
Remember when F1 got serious about safety? Yup, right after Senna died. It took arguably the biggest name in F1 racing to die before they really started taking safety seriously. F1 changed the cars, they changed the tracks, and they changed the personal safety gear.

How many F1 drivers have died since Senna? Zero. Yes, a number have been very seriously injured, but not one F1 driver has died while racing F1 since Senna. And IMO, F1 racing is vastly more dangerous than motocross.

It is impossible to take all the danger out of any form of racing, but it is Clearly Possible to make it safer so that less people get seriously hurt, and that less people die.
Forty
Posts
3079
Joined
7/27/2009
Location
Saint Paul, MN, USA
3/25/2015 7:28am
We are always told at the riders meeting to evaluate ourselves and the track after practice and if we are not comfortable with the track, track conditions, or our "ability to maneuver" the track then get a refund and become a spectator for the day.

I have always respected this sport for the skill AND conditioning that is required to excel at it. IMO as the bikes become more forgiving it becomes easier to let that conditioning drop off. More forgiving equals higher speeds, more chances taken.

Less conditioning and the ability to get around the track faster, or at higher speeds, is going to get more people in bigger trouble.

I'm talking at the local level. I've been riding and racing since 1973 and my observation is that the crashes that happen now are more horrific than those even 20 years ago and absolutely in the 70s and 80s. In the 70s one just swapped out or looped out and learned a little something about physics.

Now if the average rider gets in over his head, the price is huge. The bikes are too good, is that possible?

Sorry, too much coffee today.
dirtdog36
Posts
426
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Location
Nashville, TN, USA
3/25/2015 8:31am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 8:33am
gt80rider wrote:
Remember when F1 got serious about safety? Yup, right after Senna died. It took arguably the biggest name in F1 racing to die before they really...
Remember when F1 got serious about safety? Yup, right after Senna died. It took arguably the biggest name in F1 racing to die before they really started taking safety seriously. F1 changed the cars, they changed the tracks, and they changed the personal safety gear.

How many F1 drivers have died since Senna? Zero. Yes, a number have been very seriously injured, but not one F1 driver has died while racing F1 since Senna. And IMO, F1 racing is vastly more dangerous than motocross.

It is impossible to take all the danger out of any form of racing, but it is Clearly Possible to make it safer so that less people get seriously hurt, and that less people die.
gt80rider,
I agree with you 100% and the scary part is most of the people that ride dirt bikes can't see this point of view.

They can't even follow the logic that F1 is still very dangerous, just NOT AS dangerous as it was.

They think that we are saying we can eliminate all risk. No one is saying that. That is impossible, but we can have a goal to reduce death and catastrophic injuries
Jaybird67k
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Vidor, TX, USA
3/25/2015 8:43am
Does anyone remember the last fatality we had at a Pro AMA SX event?
I remember a young man that went over a berm and I believe he landed directly on the concrete on his head but this has been years back. He went over it at a relatively slow rate of speed as I remember.

Jason
motomike137
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Fenton, MI, USA
3/25/2015 8:50am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 8:51am
gt80rider wrote:
Remember when F1 got serious about safety? Yup, right after Senna died. It took arguably the biggest name in F1 racing to die before they really...
Remember when F1 got serious about safety? Yup, right after Senna died. It took arguably the biggest name in F1 racing to die before they really started taking safety seriously. F1 changed the cars, they changed the tracks, and they changed the personal safety gear.

How many F1 drivers have died since Senna? Zero. Yes, a number have been very seriously injured, but not one F1 driver has died while racing F1 since Senna. And IMO, F1 racing is vastly more dangerous than motocross.

It is impossible to take all the danger out of any form of racing, but it is Clearly Possible to make it safer so that less people get seriously hurt, and that less people die.
dirtdog36 wrote:
gt80rider, I agree with you 100% and the scary part is most of the people that ride dirt bikes can't see this point of view. They...
gt80rider,
I agree with you 100% and the scary part is most of the people that ride dirt bikes can't see this point of view.

They can't even follow the logic that F1 is still very dangerous, just NOT AS dangerous as it was.

They think that we are saying we can eliminate all risk. No one is saying that. That is impossible, but we can have a goal to reduce death and catastrophic injuries
I agree with this sentiment to a degree. The difference for us though is that we are not strapped into a safety cage or cell. Nascar did the same as F1 after Dale Earnhardt Senior died in his racecar. Hans device, much safer car design, safer barriers, etc. Also everything they have done to up the safety game is very expensive. That being said it doesn't mean that we should sit on our hands either. We can incremetally start to make changes through the use of well thought out solutions that work for everybody. I don't like seeing death, or riders being paralyzed or seriously hurt anymore than anyone else in the moto community but I see a lot of finger snap/knee jerk reaction solutions being thrown around on this forum. I appreciate Kevin speaking out but don't totally agree with his viewpoint. Riders have been getting seriously injured and yes even killed for many, many years and Kevin himself contemplated leaving the sport after serious injury and mental anguish that happened on a 250 2 stroke if I am not mistaken. This is such a difficult subject because the very thing that makes many of us attracted to MX is the feeling of speed, the feeling of soaring through the air, blasting through whoops and rough as sections on the edge of control all the while competing with others just inches away in may cases.
newmann
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3/25/2015 8:50am
Jason Ciarletta.
cslacker
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Glendale, AZ, USA
3/25/2015 9:00am
Jaybird67k wrote:
Does anyone remember the last fatality we had at a Pro AMA SX event? I remember a young man that went over a berm and I...
Does anyone remember the last fatality we had at a Pro AMA SX event?
I remember a young man that went over a berm and I believe he landed directly on the concrete on his head but this has been years back. He went over it at a relatively slow rate of speed as I remember.

Jason
This might come across bad but I don't think deaths at the Pro level are the concern. It is the death of children that will get the government involved and that will be the end of our sport. Matthes's point of view was that it need to come from the top down (start at the OEM and Pro level) to make things safer. I think the timing of Windham's post just happened to coincide with the Trey/Weimer accident and has created a lot of confusion. Logging into vital and seeing the constant "pray for xxx family" posts is getting sickening with frequency. That is what I am most concerned about and I don't think I am the only one.
Micahdogg
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Location
USA
3/25/2015 9:32am
Something that i haven't heard many people talk about is how hard a 2 stroke can be to ride. Many will admit that four strokes are easy to go fast on, but the other side of that is 2 strokes are hard to go fast on. Not only is there a narrower band of power, but the "light-switch" power band takes some getting used to.

We've all seen the infamous "first ride" videos where someone tries to ride a 2 stroke and suddenly the bike shoots out from under them right away. I think that experience, that scary hit of power gives people a respect for the bike. This is something that you deal with in supermini, 125 and 250. That respect for the power is something that really gets lost with 4 strokes.

I wonder if that is a contributor to people getting injured at a higher rate?
reded
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Location
USA
3/25/2015 9:58am Edited Date/Time 3/25/2015 10:00am
Jaybird67k wrote:
Does anyone remember the last fatality we had at a Pro AMA SX event? I remember a young man that went over a berm and I...
Does anyone remember the last fatality we had at a Pro AMA SX event?
I remember a young man that went over a berm and I believe he landed directly on the concrete on his head but this has been years back. He went over it at a relatively slow rate of speed as I remember.

Jason
cslacker wrote:
This might come across bad but I don't think deaths at the Pro level are the concern. It is the death of children that will get...
This might come across bad but I don't think deaths at the Pro level are the concern. It is the death of children that will get the government involved and that will be the end of our sport. Matthes's point of view was that it need to come from the top down (start at the OEM and Pro level) to make things safer. I think the timing of Windham's post just happened to coincide with the Trey/Weimer accident and has created a lot of confusion. Logging into vital and seeing the constant "pray for xxx family" posts is getting sickening with frequency. That is what I am most concerned about and I don't think I am the only one.
You could see twice as many deaths at the amateur level and the entire industry will simply chalk it up to the rider being an amateur and got in over his head. The only time the sport will start becoming safer is when one of the top stars loses their life in a racing accident. Our society is one that idolizes the stars and places them on a pedestal. It takes a fall by one of the idols in order for the rest to realize their own mortality. The amateur rider who meets his fate on any Sunday is simply a casualty of the process to find the next idol. Because he wasnt good enough, he crashed. Because he wasnt tough enough, he died. Sad is the mentality that this sport is made of..

3/25/2015 10:04am
remember the 3 wheeler? who made that go away and why? do we want that to happen to our bikes?

Post a reply to: KDub..."450's have to go".

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