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Wouldn't a DFI 2T engine be more cost efficient and environmentally friendly to build as well?
4T V's 2T engine for MX. The torque of the 4T is what wins out. Look at the torque an electric Motor makes. 20 laps around an SX track with full battery power. That was possible yesterday.
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In the sport of MX, a 4T was an innovation. Sure, it's an adaptation of other uses, but it's an innovation in the sport itself.
Questioning the intelligence of VitalMX posters is something I do on a daily basis, regardless of topic
BTW. I don't give a Rats flying fuck if you respond to my posts or not mate. I don't value your opinion even half as much as you do yourself.
14 KTM450SXF
14 KX450F
15 FE350S
I race "Old-Guy" MX and I ride in Baja & off-road quite a bit. I ride the bikes that I prefer. The TC250 comes close; but, I'm a helluva lot faster, on the track, on a 450. The 350 is the perfect off-road bike, for me.
I'm Not the One Screaming "2 Strokes!". I'm simply reflecting on what I'm seeing and hearing within' the industry versus what I'm reading in here.
I believe that point is made throughout the thread.
Even Yamaha had the RD/RZ line of 2T streeters with Catalytic Converters...back in the '80s.
Gilera (sp?) in Spain have DFI on their scooters
KTM aren't the only Interested party either. There is 2T R&D actually happening right now. I'm excited to see what's around the next few corners. With Electric motors and DFI 2T engines
Well maybe homologation requirements need to be tweaked to better reflect the sales aspects of the market. Therefore if the sales of two strokes are low manufacturers won't be required to supply as many as if they were? I actually wonder if the 400 unit requirement isn't becoming unrealistic for any manufacturer considering the size of the MX bike market in general.
But I don't think it matters how many two strokes are being sold as far as seeing them compete in AMA Pro racing because the displacement rules and fuel restrictions as they are currently written would still overwhelmingly favor the four strokes.
quit worrying about what other people prefer
I'm looking for a cheap 125 to help improve my technique a bit, and I couldn't care less about what someone lined up next to me is riding.
The 2-stroke crowd on vital are evidence of the throng of consumers willing and able to spend their money on the next development in 2 stroke technology, KTM is also strong evidence of the demand. If the Japanese manufacturers provide a product that the market demands they will sell. Likely the largest market segment in the MX community with $ (vet riders) would be all over a new 2 stroke.
The other point that has been made is no sales=no R&D budget. By this same logic, would sales with no R&D spend not fund an R&D budget for the next new thing? Yamaha has spent zero R&D on their 2 strokes for how long?
I believe the bigger issue for the Japanese is the size of the MX market overall. It's all about ROI on your R&D investment. For every $1 spent in R&D in the MX segment, it may yield $2. In the side by side market segment, it may yield $12. If this is true, the real issue is the shrinking of our sport, its not about 2 vs 4 stroke. Not to derail this topic but having tragedies at national amateur events now on a regular basis and not taking steps to make this sport safer to me is criminal and will play a major role in its demise.
Been riding 250F's for years and this year I made the switch to a 250 2stroke. It was much more fun, flickable and it got my adrenaline pumping overtime.
It's too bad the OEMs won't make any new 2strokes. I don't think average joe wants one anymore either. He's blown away by going fast with a bike which is both torquey and revs to the moon (read: he runs out of talent before the bike does). As much as I'd like a brand new KX250 I don't see it happening. Ever.
I'm still gonna enjoy my SX250 and make her scream whenever I can.
Pit Row
I agree with you on all of your points here.
Are they truly "fulfilling the need" (or the want)?
Or are they doing just enough so they can claim they still support the 2-stroke market (or make some more profit on a long-ago paid for item)?
And "better sales" is a bit ambiguous - how much better? One unit worldwide? Some quantification would help tighten the discussion - put a number on it that is supported by facts regarding the sales level (and corresponding dollar amount) that is required/needed to financially justify/permit a manuf to develop the product.
You do include the escape clause "albeit -slowly", but there's the rub for me - just because Yamaha decided to put that god-awful 2008 KTM-looking sidepanel design on the 2015 YZ isn't enough of an incentive to make me part ways with my 06 YZ125 and 07 YZ250 (because the first mod I'd do is buy the old sidepanels and airbox!).
This is a many faceted discussion but I think it's a combination of forces that include economics, manufacturers that aren't generating any interest in their products because of a lack development and improvement in the last decade (especially when it sits next to the latest shiny, sparkly valve and cam release... with air forks... and traction control... and a reversed engine... etc, etc) and a programmed/conditioned market (riders that have never ridden a two stroke in their entire riding career).
I don't see much of an incentive to buy a new bike (unless I've completely worn out my old one) just to replace it with what is essentially an exact replacement, not an upgrade. New? Yes. Improved? Not so much.
Who would buy a new, huge, low-def CRT TV every year or two, not because it quit working but just to replace it with the same thing in the hopes that in doing so the TV manuf would come out with something better for them?
It seems silly to admonish the buyer for not behaving in that manner.
People are still buying 2Ts but it seems reasonable to believe that sales would be better (how much?) if they were improved regularly.
A new KTM 250SX is still not arguably a better out-of-the-crate bike than a 2006 YZ250 - so where's the incentive? And that's after almost a decade of development... which might mean that the 2Ts are going to be difficult to improve upon or that even after almost 10 years they haven't been shown a lot of innovation, just refining.
So, do you reward a manufacturer for simply continuing to make the same bike for 10 years by buying one when you don't need it or does the manufacturer take the risk of kicking out the jams, spending some cash on R&D and delivering the latest sliced bread to the table... and hope to be rewarded with massive sales? And if buyers continue to buy the same recycled product does that send the message that they're content with it and don''t need improvements to continue their loyalty? This might make the manufs think "why fix it if it ain't broke" and perpetuate the discontented cycle with the buyer.
It's the proverbial chicken or the egg argument... which is where I think an argument could be made to support your last sentence if it were reversed - "Better development would incentivize better sales".
Do I think there's a market for cutting edge 2-stroke?
Sure.
Am I going to lose any sleep over not seeing one every time a new model year rolls around?
Nope.
So in the meantime I'll be riding all my scoots (2 and 4 stroke) when I can.
Just some thoughts, not a pissing contest.
The post that you responded to was an extension of your thoughts. Well, was Intended to be. I was agreeing with you.
BTW, I have mild Asperger's Syndrome. Myself agreeing with your logic is actually a compliment
I also have thick skin
It's hard to think of a market scenario where a manufacturer demands that consumers purchase a current product that isn't being updated before they begin to put development dollars into a new product. Generally the manufacturer makes changes that they feel will make their product more attractive to increase sales.
Anyway. Getting back on topic. I'm happy to try whatever they decide to make and I'm happy with what's currently available ATM. "Varity is the spice of life". As long as it moves in a forward motion under It's own power. Life's Good.
Part of the problem is the mfg's telling the dealers they can only have so much of a certain inventory, and telling them they have to take a certain amount of another. Look at jetski's. A dealer in Florida is going to sell way more than a dealer in northern alaska. I bet if you you looked at a sales graph, you would find regions where the 2 strokes sell considerably better than 4 strokes, and vise versa
Post a reply to: (*)Vital 2 Stroke Community ain't helping the cause...