Sounds like Reed is hinting at a Union.

mmmmx
Posts
1
Joined
1/20/2015
Location
WI US
1/20/2015 12:57pm
GuyB wrote:
So the top guys are going to put in the time and effort so privateers can make more? That's some modern day Robin Hood stuff there...
So the top guys are going to put in the time and effort so privateers can make more?

That's some modern day Robin Hood stuff there. Wink
Roger Federer and some other top tennis players did. Nice to see that everyone is not greedy.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/01/players-welcome-aussie-open-priz…
MR. X
Posts
6913
Joined
6/24/2010
Location
North Tonawanda, NY US
1/20/2015 1:18pm
I believe that it is impossible to form a rider's union. Normally, a union would be concerned with what is fair for all riders. Factory teams/riders...
I believe that it is impossible to form a rider's union. Normally, a union would be concerned with what is fair for all riders. Factory teams/riders have rule advantages that give factory bikes an upper hand on its competition. One simple change that a rider's unions would request is a limit on the tire compounds that can be used on race day by all race teams. Would a factory rider agree to this term? EFI mapping limitations/rules? Who wants the headache of running a union when your career is over by the time you're 30.
I also don't understand how a riders union would work . The examples you gave only scratch the surface of the things that would need to be addressed . I wonder how union dues would work for a guy that only makes one main event per season , is he supposed to pay to race AND pay union dues ?
Xeno
Posts
3728
Joined
12/30/2010
Location
San Clemente, CA US
1/20/2015 2:16pm
Again, is Reed proposing rider's union or a team owner's union?
That's a good question, since Reed currently has both roles.

As far-fetched as a sustainable rider's union sounds, a team owner's union seems even farther-fetched (not to mention ambiguous).

Would Chad Reed, DeCoster (doesn't own the team, but represents the owner), and Mike Genova agree on many topics?
JB 19
Posts
4331
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH US
1/20/2015 2:26pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 3:56pm
The collective bargaining rules are really just a threat. If all of the factory riders choose to not race what is Feld going to do, punish them by not letting them race?

......but, i don't think it will ever happen. The riders would need the backing of the teams and an ok to not carry out their obligations for their team and other sponsors.

What about privateers? In stick and ball sports the minimum pay is like 300,000$. How do you tell a privateer to stick to a plan when they have no leverage to start with and could possibly be banned for life? Sure Feld wants Roczen, Dungey, and Tomac out there. Ronnie Stewart? No biggie, throw him out.

The Shop

Clutchy
Posts
2830
Joined
3/24/2009
Location
redding, CA US
1/20/2015 2:36pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2015 5:56am
Again, is Reed proposing rider's union or a team owner's union?
Never mind... Nothing is going to change anytime soon, nor should it probably. It is what it is. No one can do better then What feld does with SX and same for MX.. Traveling strippers and club owners is what it is and will remain. So I'll stfu now and go back to tipping the strippers...
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
1/20/2015 2:37pm
It's easier to avoid a black flag by not going out of your way in front of the whole world to knock another guy down.
jamma10 wrote:
Precisely.

Unfortunately everyone keeps conveniently ignoring this fact,
Like they ignore Bowers doing the same thing at A1 and getting a different ruling?

Funny
The Rock
Posts
8758
Joined
3/21/2007
Location
HAIKU, HI US
1/20/2015 3:25pm
Groundhog day.

Were Osbourne's hands on the bars when Bowers hit him or was he tooling off to the side of the track? Not discussing punishment fairness at all only taking issue with your (correct me if I am wrong please) comparing Reed/Canard as apples as apples to Bowers/Osbourne.

You're welcome to do it but they aren't fair comparisons.
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
1/20/2015 3:38pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 3:44pm
The Rock wrote:
Groundhog day. Were Osbourne's hands on the bars when Bowers hit him or was he tooling off to the side of the track? Not discussing punishment...
Groundhog day.

Were Osbourne's hands on the bars when Bowers hit him or was he tooling off to the side of the track? Not discussing punishment fairness at all only taking issue with your (correct me if I am wrong please) comparing Reed/Canard as apples as apples to Bowers/Osbourne.

You're welcome to do it but they aren't fair comparisons.
Yep. Groundhog day, and what you jerkies can't understand or don't get is at the base of it it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, they've made an irreversible decision whilst having a recent and long history of making the wrong ruling and reversing it later.

Both cases, there was initial contact and a retaliation. Both riders retaliated against went down. One got injured. You're arguments are on intent or the situation of the other rider on the track, Did Bowers not mean to hit Osborne? Chad had no way of knowing Trey's hand was off the bars, it was his right hand, and hitting him as lightly as he did, I guarantee he wouldn't have assumed he'd go down.

No one is arguing Chad did the right thing, or that Trey didn't. They both fucked up. The system fucked up worse.
Question
Posts
3177
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
FR
1/20/2015 3:39pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 3:39pm
Why would a Union must cost million dollars ?
Except, maybe a P.R. specialist, what do you need ?
If without an employee, it cost what ? $100 a year per pro rider to write the Union status ? (no corp. lawyers on the payroll in factory teams backed up by huge corporations?)
And if with an employee, can't it be sponsored by like a DCshoescoUSA rider union ? Based on how it works & what it makes, it has the potential to be mentioned on broadcast pretty regularly, be showcased on their role at least a few times a year, etc. Like Asterisk mobile.

Question
Posts
3177
Joined
6/26/2014
Location
FR
1/20/2015 3:45pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 3:46pm
By the way: people continusouly arguing on Reed and Canard.
1. Both are champ'.
2. Small racing incident. Unlucky for both.
3. Another incident, unlucky for Canard, which became unlucky for Reed.

People can keep telling "retaliation", "bad move", "dirty" and all the bad words but PLEASE GO BACK TO WATCH THE VIDEO. Trey should not have had 1 hand on the handlebar at that time, as there was a good probabability Reed would at least come to show him some attitude and a nice block pass / brake check. In this end it is just an incident that looked dirty but it was not. Nothing to debate for hours about or to insult any of these riders.
struth
Posts
1668
Joined
2/10/2014
Location
AL US
1/20/2015 3:48pm
2010 they year rd won the sx title and the year RV smashed he legs over a jump that Cr said was dangerous and someone would get hurt.
Think reed wanted a rider rep to go over the track each race night and make sure the,workplace was safe.
Just going off memory.
Crush
Posts
21077
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney AU
1/20/2015 3:55pm
struth wrote:
2010 they year rd won the sx title and the year RV smashed he legs over a jump that Cr said was dangerous and someone would...
2010 they year rd won the sx title and the year RV smashed he legs over a jump that Cr said was dangerous and someone would get hurt.
Think reed wanted a rider rep to go over the track each race night and make sure the,workplace was safe.
Just going off memory.
Yep, pointed out the triple RV broke himself on in practice and was pretty vocal about a riders rep or union then until outdoors.
Ron_Brohl
Posts
20
Joined
1/11/2012
Location
Sterling Heights, MI US
1/20/2015 4:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 4:08pm
Rdubs19 wrote:
How is the additional cost of union dues going to help privateers? Unions, by definition, do not create wealth or value. A rider's union is going...
How is the additional cost of union dues going to help privateers? Unions, by definition, do not create wealth or value. A rider's union is going to provide disincentives to the Bobby Hewitts and Joe Gibbs who are putting their own money on the line, and eventually the in house teams will tire of negotiating with union lawyers in an area the factories probably already lose money. And you can bet that the cost of a ticket will shoot up as well. You guys talk like it's going to be rider's at the negotiating table and it just isn't, it will be lawyers who are there to put as much money in their own pockets and the union's pockets as they can, PERIOD. Surely a union will help factory riders (who don't need help), but we are talking primarily about helping privateers with payouts, and unions are not the answer for that particular problem. Privateer payouts aren't low because there is not a union. They are low because Feld sets the pay structure and enough people show up to.clear the market they have created. That isn't comfortable for everyone, but it is a free market at work and if the privateers cannot maintain financial viability in that market it isn't because they have been wronged in some way. I want the privateers to do well, I want.it for them badly, but a union is not the answer, at least not the best answer.
Finally someone understands
reded
Posts
3682
Joined
3/26/2011
Location
KS US
1/20/2015 4:10pm
Again, is Reed proposing rider's union or a team owner's union?
Clutchy wrote:
Never mind... Nothing is going to change anytime soon, nor should it probably. It is what it is. No one can do better then What feld...
Never mind... Nothing is going to change anytime soon, nor should it probably. It is what it is. No one can do better then What feld does with SX and same for MX.. Traveling strippers and club owners is what it is and will remain. So I'll stfu now and go back to tipping the strippers...
I wonder what it would take for MXSports to pry the series away from Feld or if they would even want it? IMO whoever runs the series needs to be more in tune with MX than Monster Trucks.
KTMShane699
Posts
1307
Joined
12/6/2013
Location
Colchester, CT US
1/20/2015 4:27pm
Question wrote:
Why would a Union must cost million dollars ? Except, maybe a P.R. specialist, what do you need ? If without an employee, it cost what...
Why would a Union must cost million dollars ?
Except, maybe a P.R. specialist, what do you need ?
If without an employee, it cost what ? $100 a year per pro rider to write the Union status ? (no corp. lawyers on the payroll in factory teams backed up by huge corporations?)
And if with an employee, can't it be sponsored by like a DCshoescoUSA rider union ? Based on how it works & what it makes, it has the potential to be mentioned on broadcast pretty regularly, be showcased on their role at least a few times a year, etc. Like Asterisk mobile.

So you're saying a private corporation should fund a union for the riders? And you don't think that invites corruption? There already is an entity other than the riders representing them. That's the AMA. See how that doesn't really work? The only way the riders will have their best interest at heart is if it's the riders or their own paid representatives (and that's questionable) doing the representing.

A million dollar union is probably unrealistic. But to think negotiating contracts and such comes for a cheap cost isn't right either. At least not a good contract.

There are endless variables to a union. Who's a member? Any pro? What about the guy who gets a pro license to race his local national? Does he pay the same dues as a factory rider? How do you negotiate for all? Take into consideration the laws of each state represented?

Keep in mind that they'd be negotiating with the promoters who have far deeper pockets than the riders. They could tie up a negotiation in red tape and financially bankrupt a union.

This is an age old problem with motocross. People complain about payout, conditions and rules. But they all pay their entry fees. And they all continue to fill the starting gates every week.

Where's the incentive for the promotors/sanctioning body to offer any concession? They're at risk of losing nothing. The show will go on...

Shane
ACBraap
Posts
1166
Joined
2/10/2012
Location
Seattlish, WA US
Fantasy
1/20/2015 4:28pm
A bunch of you are getting your panties in a wad over the word union. Association would be a better word, as unions usually cover employees. A rider or team association could have a voice in rule changes, to prevent changes in lites eligibility from being pushed through that nobody even noticed, to determine whether the RCR2SX is a worthwhile path to pursue, review tracks from a rider safety perspective, or make help make sure rules are applied in a consistent manner, with a due process means of appeal.

Getting them to agree on sharing $ would likely never happen, and the only way would be if they thought they were somehow growing the sport in a way where everyone would make even more.

Seeing as how the riders are all members of the AMA, and the AMA is supposed to represent riders, what is it that the AMA adds to the series?
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
1/20/2015 4:45pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 5:12pm
It's easier to avoid a black flag by not going out of your way in front of the whole world to knock another guy down.
jamma10 wrote:
Precisely.

Unfortunately everyone keeps conveniently ignoring this fact,
Crush wrote:
Like they ignore Bowers doing the same thing at A1 and getting a different ruling?

Funny
That Bowers incident was blown waaaaaaaay out of proportion. It was pretty much a textbook, aggressive pass for position in the race.

You could argue that Hansen deserved the same punishment as Chad, but Hansen got away with his little punt on McElrath because he was cunning about it. Both those cases were open to interpretation, whereas Reeds was so blatantly obvious it was indisputable at the time. He probably didn't intend to send Trey tumbling over the tuff block but he still has to take responsibility for that happening.

The problem is with this grey area in SX where certain incidents tend to go unpunished, but there are still written rules that riders are supposed to adhere to and they should be aware that there could be repercussions. Supposedly John Gallagher has been a race official for 30 odd years, he's been race director of the Supercross series for around ten of those, so you would expect someone of his experience to make an educated decision based on what he saw happen right in front of him. The fact the AMA official also backed him up suggests he wasnt the only official that felt it warranted a black flag.

It's a little bit like Rugby Union; the game largely hinges on the the players ability to play right at edge of legality, often exploiting the rules to their advantage. Infringements often go unpunished, but occasionally a player will get penalised for exactly the same thing that others have been getting way with all game. Like Chad, players tend to get caught and penalised when the infringment is blatant.
1/20/2015 5:24pm
Years ago in formula one, the drivers were told what to do and to just shut up and race, regardless of track conditions, safety, money, etc... They formed the Grand Prix Drivers Association (GPDA). It is voluntary to join, but most drivers are members, and in a billion dollar sport, only costs a few grand a year to be a member. The drivers meet at every race and discuss conditions, rules, safety, etc.. whatever they want. There always needs to be a balance between both sides in any sport, profession, job, etc. Even the American Medical Association (AMA) is just a huge union for doctors and medical professionals.
Its a great idea for Supercross. Riders can discuss ways to make conditions as safe as possible, perhaps have input into rule changes, provide input into salaries, contracts, conditions etc. At the moment, riders are at the mercy of promoters and federations and "in the name of entertainment", they are getting banged up, crippled and left without a say in any matters and a lot of time left penniless if anything goes wrong.
Hgibbs566
Posts
436
Joined
12/23/2014
Location
US
1/20/2015 6:05pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 6:10pm
Former UFC fighters have filed an antitrust lawsuit against the UFC claiming a monopoly and abuse of power etc under the Sherman Act. It's my understanding they expect to settle it before the discovery phase of the lawsuit because ZUFFA won't want people to know how they operate their business, how much they really make etc.

IMO, if riders really wanted a riders association, they would do something similar to what these UFC fighters are doing because I can't see FELD wanting to go thriyugh that discovery phase either.

Google UFC antitrust lawsuit if you care to know more.
1/20/2015 6:17pm
Will this be Chads new butt patch???

Hgibbs566
Posts
436
Joined
12/23/2014
Location
US
1/20/2015 6:19pm
Will this be Chads new butt patch???[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2015/01/20/77506/s1200_image.jpg[/img]
Will this be Chads new butt patch???

I'd run:

MX_Andrew83
Posts
748
Joined
10/6/2010
Location
Morehead city, NC US
1/20/2015 7:05pm
If they form a union, the next crop of privateers will move right in and we'll be watching those guys race.
toroP
Posts
4462
Joined
4/6/2009
Location
Cincinnati, OH US
1/20/2015 7:06pm
toroP wrote:
If Canard didn't fall, would/should Reed have been DQed? Look at the nature of the contact.


BD233 wrote:
Hypothetical situation.....who knows? Canard could have been hurt from the previous crash, he had one hand off the bars, what if his wrist was broken?? Would...
Hypothetical situation.....who knows? Canard could have been hurt from the previous crash, he had one hand off the bars, what if his wrist was broken?? Would it have been the right call then?.... who knows, you could make up scenarios all day.....The way it happened it was the correct call.
So if you can't deal with hypotheticals, you can't have a rule book.

You avoid this hypothetical because it doesn't support your opinion.

The point is that Reed's move, a lame choice in my opinion, wasn't a vicious collision. There are many, more violent, intentional collisions that are are never penalized.
MR CABLE GUY
Posts
1
Joined
1/20/2015
Location
TIPPTOOTOO, AL US
1/20/2015 7:32pm
ChrisB10 wrote:
Chad's had some tweets lately that have been hinting at something. Last night they were talking about it on the pulpmx show and Matthes mentioned it...
Chad's had some tweets lately that have been hinting at something. Last night they were talking about it on the pulpmx show and Matthes mentioned it could be a rider union. Matthes talks to Chad a lot and JT is one of his good friends. I think they don't want to openly say it's def going to happen but them just casually mentioning it or (letting it slip) really makes me think they are seriously trying to start one. It makes sense when you think about what happened and Chad 's "next chapter is doing something noone else has been able to do". The guy has the respect from the other riders and he sure as hell wouldn't be shy when delegating with Feld. Obviously this wouldn't happen overnight, but I think we may be wittnessing the start of a union finally.
wildbill
Posts
4382
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Christmas Valley, OR US
1/20/2015 8:13pm
Years ago in formula one, the drivers were told what to do and to just shut up and race, regardless of track conditions, safety, money, etc...
Years ago in formula one, the drivers were told what to do and to just shut up and race, regardless of track conditions, safety, money, etc... They formed the Grand Prix Drivers Association (GPDA). It is voluntary to join, but most drivers are members, and in a billion dollar sport, only costs a few grand a year to be a member. The drivers meet at every race and discuss conditions, rules, safety, etc.. whatever they want. There always needs to be a balance between both sides in any sport, profession, job, etc. Even the American Medical Association (AMA) is just a huge union for doctors and medical professionals.
Its a great idea for Supercross. Riders can discuss ways to make conditions as safe as possible, perhaps have input into rule changes, provide input into salaries, contracts, conditions etc. At the moment, riders are at the mercy of promoters and federations and "in the name of entertainment", they are getting banged up, crippled and left without a say in any matters and a lot of time left penniless if anything goes wrong.
Good post^^^
Katoomey
Posts
1714
Joined
1/18/2013
Location
WY US
1/20/2015 8:51pm
ChrisB10 wrote:
Seriously? Are we really going to play this game? Don't tell me you're niave enough to think Feld is struggling to pay the light bill.But anyways...
Seriously? Are we really going to play this game? Don't tell me you're niave enough to think Feld is struggling to pay the light bill.But anyways here it is
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2013/05/20/Media/Supe…
GuyB wrote:
Play what game? I didn't know the number, and what you posted is talking about a future deal (in a 2013 story), isn't indicative of what...
Play what game? I didn't know the number, and what you posted is talking about a future deal (in a 2013 story), isn't indicative of what the current deal is.
ChrisB10 wrote:
The game you play by taking subtle shots at me indicating I have no knowledge of the financial structure of the FS1 deal so consequently I...
The game you play by taking subtle shots at me indicating I have no knowledge of the financial structure of the FS1 deal so consequently I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm just being paranoid though Wink If you read the story it said the current deal was a million per 12 live races so logically a 17 live race agreement would only drive up that figure.
what good are those numbers if you don't have any of the other numbers? like how much THEY SPEND!

they are going to payout well over $2 million in purse money. That much I know.
#991
Posts
1685
Joined
8/7/2013
Location
Melbourne AU
1/20/2015 10:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2015 3:49pm
...
JB 19
Posts
4331
Joined
3/8/2009
Location
Marion, OH US
1/20/2015 11:04pm
#991 wrote:
...
You should go back to watching cartoons.
Piston Slap
Posts
1971
Joined
7/2/2013
Location
Stillwater, OK US
1/20/2015 11:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2015 11:10pm
#991 wrote:
...
Yes, asked expalined and answered why it couldn't happen.

Lack of available venues for one great reason.

Besides, it's already been done years ago. it's a long crappy story too

That's why the FIM is in volved in American Supercross now.

RC and Reed didnt' get rich by throwing away money on crap ideas.
#991
Posts
1685
Joined
8/7/2013
Location
Melbourne AU
1/20/2015 11:10pm Edited Date/Time 4/4/2015 3:49pm
#991 wrote:
...
Yes, asked expalined and answered why it couldn't happen. Lack of available venues for one great reason. Besides, it's already been done years ago. it's a...
Yes, asked expalined and answered why it couldn't happen.

Lack of available venues for one great reason.

Besides, it's already been done years ago. it's a long crappy story too

That's why the FIM is in volved in American Supercross now.

RC and Reed didnt' get rich by throwing away money on crap ideas.
...

Post a reply to: Sounds like Reed is hinting at a Union.

The Latest