Must-See Letter Between the AMA and FIM

Rooster
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12/19/2014 10:08am
reded wrote:
Hard to make that determination without having access to all of the evidence.
The length of time it took seems to be directly related to Stewart taking until September to submit his doctors report with his TUE.

As for the punishment being too strict, it's completely in line with what penalties have been handed down in Road Racing.

Look at what Anthony West got in Moto2 for a decongestant or even what Angel Rodríguez received after testing positive for recreational drugs in a domestic Spanish race. Both penalties were greater than what Stewart has received.

Noriyuki Haga lost a shot at a title over an ingredient in diet pills he took in the off season.

Anthony Gobert is now running around stealing purses in Australia after failing multiple drug tests under both the FIM and AMA.

So boo freaking hoo. If your career is worth millions a year and your ability to earn is tied to a rulebook, then it would be best if you took the time to read and understand that rule book. Ignorance is not a defense.

The penalties that had been handed out before were all severe, so that's an even greater incentive ensure everything is in proper order if you're taking a substance on the banned list. It's not like this was some hidden ingredient in an over the counter medication. This was a known amphetamine that's on everybody's banned list.
500guy
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12/19/2014 10:14am
oshow wrote:
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their...
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their supercross series and his pentelty is _\__ points or $$$ and done. Let's get down to business
X2
Robgvx
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12/19/2014 10:21am
In fairness, while you're accusing ignorance of others, acknowledge that it's not uncommon for WADA to see its (or its recommended/pressured) penalties undone by the CAS...
In fairness, while you're accusing ignorance of others, acknowledge that it's not uncommon for WADA to see its (or its recommended/pressured) penalties undone by the CAS for being too harsh or not sufficiently supported.

So let's dispense with the notion that this is an entity that gets it right every time. Or isn't more wrapped up in its power than its virtue. They'll enjoy some deference with CAS for sure, though (not sure if the FIM will, it's their penalty even if WADA sent signals they'd better levy it or go through the hoops they wen through with Gobert again).

There also are quasi due process issues at stake when essentially someone's career is put to end and will be over by the time the legal proceedings run their course. I'd say especially so here where it lingered really without any obvious excuse, the FIM laxity with confidentiality rules, and the laziness of imposition of the provisional without following the Code's suggested ideal that accused athletes should be given an initial hearing before a provisional suspension is levied and noticed (after they are notified first). I'm sure tStew's camp will throw the sink in there as it's essentially a death penalty case for his career.

He was going to get dinged, and since he knew he was taking it he was going to get something more than just losing event results. I could have seen him losing the whole SX season unless there were some real aggravating circumstances that netted him the full two years first time out. This is a lot. I have to think brought the 2015 summer into it for him not parking the bike last summer when the provisional first came down.
Astute observation In your last paragraph Michael. Stewart showing the middle finger to the FIM in continuing to race when provisionally suspended can't have done much to encourage FIM leniency.

RY4N37
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12/19/2014 10:29am
reded wrote:
Hard to make that determination without having access to all of the evidence.
Rooster wrote:
The length of time it took seems to be directly related to Stewart taking until September to submit his doctors report with his TUE. As for...
The length of time it took seems to be directly related to Stewart taking until September to submit his doctors report with his TUE.

As for the punishment being too strict, it's completely in line with what penalties have been handed down in Road Racing.

Look at what Anthony West got in Moto2 for a decongestant or even what Angel Rodríguez received after testing positive for recreational drugs in a domestic Spanish race. Both penalties were greater than what Stewart has received.

Noriyuki Haga lost a shot at a title over an ingredient in diet pills he took in the off season.

Anthony Gobert is now running around stealing purses in Australia after failing multiple drug tests under both the FIM and AMA.

So boo freaking hoo. If your career is worth millions a year and your ability to earn is tied to a rulebook, then it would be best if you took the time to read and understand that rule book. Ignorance is not a defense.

The penalties that had been handed out before were all severe, so that's an even greater incentive ensure everything is in proper order if you're taking a substance on the banned list. It's not like this was some hidden ingredient in an over the counter medication. This was a known amphetamine that's on everybody's banned list.
Absolutely agree 100%. If your livelihood depends on following a rule book then you should make more of an effort to follow it.

And your point about this not being a one off penalty is also true, people think that this has been a witch hunt after Stewart when really that is not the case at all. He has recieved a similar penalty to several other athletes all over the world. Who he is shouldn't make any difference and it clearly hasn't. Which is good

The Shop

RY4N37
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12/19/2014 10:33am
oshow wrote:
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their...
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their supercross series and his pentelty is _\__ points or $$$ and done. Let's get down to business
Swiftly followed by WADA taking them to CAS. They can't do anything
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 10:38am
Robgvx wrote:
Astute observation In your last paragraph Michael. Stewart showing the middle finger to the FIM in continuing to race when provisionally suspended can't have done much...
Astute observation In your last paragraph Michael. Stewart showing the middle finger to the FIM in continuing to race when provisionally suspended can't have done much to encourage FIM leniency.

When you take that into consideration and see that not only has he violated the doping rules, he then broke his provisional suspension from the FIM. What is essentially an 8 month ban doesn't seem so harsh after all
Julian
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12/19/2014 10:44am
Many of our MX people have opinion the punishment is too severe because of this or that detail.

What I am thinking is that the world-wide governing body MUST be very cut-and-dried with how it sets and upholds its standards and the standards must be set in stone:

for example:

x drug is on the banned list.

x drug was found in athlete A's body.

Result = athlete A gets the standard punishment - PERIOD !

If the world governing body starts listening to all the arguments of all the athletes and starts "adjusting" its standards (downward) in an effort to "accommodate" the details of any athlete who has a gripe, in five years the whole system will be a mess and then an "all new governing body" will just have to be started all over again to try again to get the job done right. Look what a mess the biking sport has gone through with Lance Armstrong etc - I remember when I used to admire those bike riders and now when I think of the sport I just think of drugs.

Time to wake up people - We DO NOT want this to happen to our sport.
Motoxdoc
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12/19/2014 10:45am
So James is banned from racing for 16 months for taking a drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 10:51am
Motoxdoc wrote:
So James is banned from racing for 16 months for taking a drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
No. He's banned for not telling anyone he was taking the drug until after he tested positive for it. There's a difference
Julian
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12/19/2014 10:54am
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea.

That is the type of standard I would expect from the entrance test for a school or something.

We are talking about professional sports here where it is a big business who wins.

We can not have this "well he is allowed to take a banned drug" mentality.

I think if a professional athlete "needs" a drug that is on the banned drug list, then he should just stop competing in a professional sport.

Profession sport (especially our wonderful sport of MX) should have NO ROOM at all for anything like a drug or a banned drug.
BD233
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12/19/2014 10:56am
Julian wrote:
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea. That is the type of standard I would expect from the...
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea.

That is the type of standard I would expect from the entrance test for a school or something.

We are talking about professional sports here where it is a big business who wins.

We can not have this "well he is allowed to take a banned drug" mentality.

I think if a professional athlete "needs" a drug that is on the banned drug list, then he should just stop competing in a professional sport.

Profession sport (especially our wonderful sport of MX) should have NO ROOM at all for anything like a drug or a banned drug.
WTF do you guys drink in Poland?? LMAO...WOW...
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 11:09am
Julian wrote:
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea. That is the type of standard I would expect from the...
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea.

That is the type of standard I would expect from the entrance test for a school or something.

We are talking about professional sports here where it is a big business who wins.

We can not have this "well he is allowed to take a banned drug" mentality.

I think if a professional athlete "needs" a drug that is on the banned drug list, then he should just stop competing in a professional sport.

Profession sport (especially our wonderful sport of MX) should have NO ROOM at all for anything like a drug or a banned drug.
The problem with that is that some riders do have a genuine issue that they do require some medication for. For example if a rider has asthma (which I believe Cairoli does) he should be able to use an inhaler (I think an inhaler can contain some banned substances) if he files all the proper paperwork
Hut
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12/19/2014 11:09am
oshow wrote:
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their...
Feld has no balls whatsoever if they don't come out and drop the FIM and issue a Press release saying James in able to race their supercross series and his pentelty is _\__ points or $$$ and done. Let's get down to business
I like your attitude.



Julian
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12/19/2014 11:52am
A professional athlete who has the heart to win, like a Hannah, Johnson or a JS7 WILL find a way to win WITHOUT DRUGS.

some years ago JS7 was having some problems finishing races and I guess he went to a doctor (who earns part of his income from his sponsor, the pharmaceutical industry) - and the doctor told JS7 that the solution is............. (you guessed it) to buy a product from the doctor's sponsor - (the pharmaceutical industry)

JS7 is just like 90% of Americans today, completely under the spell of the pharma industry

The pharma industry wants us to believe we are not responsible for ourselves, we are just victims and we can't help ourselves,,,,

The pharma industry WANTS us to believe this so we will buy their products.

many of you may not know what I am writing about, but some of you do.

In this case, I sure wish JS7 had not sought a solution from his doctor, then we would all be enjoying thinking about old works bikes etc instead of some boring drugs.
Tokyo_Tiddler
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12/19/2014 12:02pm
Julian wrote:
A professional athlete who has the heart to win, like a Hannah, Johnson or a JS7 WILL find a way to win WITHOUT DRUGS. some years...
A professional athlete who has the heart to win, like a Hannah, Johnson or a JS7 WILL find a way to win WITHOUT DRUGS.

some years ago JS7 was having some problems finishing races and I guess he went to a doctor (who earns part of his income from his sponsor, the pharmaceutical industry) - and the doctor told JS7 that the solution is............. (you guessed it) to buy a product from the doctor's sponsor - (the pharmaceutical industry)

JS7 is just like 90% of Americans today, completely under the spell of the pharma industry

The pharma industry wants us to believe we are not responsible for ourselves, we are just victims and we can't help ourselves,,,,

The pharma industry WANTS us to believe this so we will buy their products.

many of you may not know what I am writing about, but some of you do.

In this case, I sure wish JS7 had not sought a solution from his doctor, then we would all be enjoying thinking about old works bikes etc instead of some boring drugs.
Your first sentence was great.. then it went all to shit after that with your "Constant Gardener"-type conspiracy theory.

mike
Julian
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12/19/2014 12:10pm
Julian wrote:
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea. That is the type of standard I would expect from the...
Personally, I don't even like this "he is allowed to take a banned drug" idea.

That is the type of standard I would expect from the entrance test for a school or something.

We are talking about professional sports here where it is a big business who wins.

We can not have this "well he is allowed to take a banned drug" mentality.

I think if a professional athlete "needs" a drug that is on the banned drug list, then he should just stop competing in a professional sport.

Profession sport (especially our wonderful sport of MX) should have NO ROOM at all for anything like a drug or a banned drug.
RY4N37 wrote:
The problem with that is that some riders do have a genuine issue that they do require some medication for. For example if a rider has...
The problem with that is that some riders do have a genuine issue that they do require some medication for. For example if a rider has asthma (which I believe Cairoli does) he should be able to use an inhaler (I think an inhaler can contain some banned substances) if he files all the proper paperwork
I expected many comments in this direction RY4N37 and I know many people today do believe they NEED the pharma industry to solve problems --- I won't try to play a missionary here try to tell everybody (like Cairoli with his inhaler) that he really does not need this, if this inhaler does indeed contain drugs........

My point is just that problems can be solved without the pharma industry.

There are natural solutions all over the world that are not marketed through the pharma industry.

Let me give you a little example, I experienced myself just a couple weeks ago, I finally got tired of having water clog my ear every time I went swimming.... I remembered my mom took me to a doctor when I was a boy and the doc squirted water into my ear, cleaned out the wax and I was good to go..... So I went to a doctor with the same thing in mind.... he looked inside and said I should go to the drug store and buy a specific brand of ear drops, use it a few days then he would squirt out my ear.

I asked the doc if I could just go buy some other brand of ear drops and he said no, I must buy the brand he suggested.

The pharmacy I visited on the way home did not have that specific brand and I was determined I had to follow the doc's advice so I was going to try again the next day to find the product.

I got home, jumped on the internet and in two minutes I was reading the solution was as simple as using olive oil.

I tried it and after a few days, problem gone, $0.00 spent
Kawaboy14
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12/19/2014 12:27pm
exactly!
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 12:29pm
Maybe he had no idea that he was breaking the rules. But he only had no idea through negligence on either his part or his teams part. He was aware of the rules the same as everyone else
Motoxdoc
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12/19/2014 1:06pm
Motoxdoc wrote:
So James is banned from racing for 16 months for taking a drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
RY4N37 wrote:
No. He's banned for not telling anyone he was taking the drug until after he tested positive for it. There's a difference
Soooo James is banned from racing for 16 months for not telling anyone he was taking the drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
Whistling It sounds just as wrong no matter how you word it.
12/19/2014 1:17pm
I am very surprised and disappointed that the AMA is taking the position it is taking. It shows its true character in my opinion to embrace drug testing but then "throw the governing agency under the bus" when a rule violation occurs and the so called "fans" don't like the result. I believe the AMA should be backing up the FIM not going against it. What a weird message to send. If the AMA is against drug testing, they should do away with it in their series. Don't even get me started on the " he eventually got a TUE so he shouldn't be penalized" excuse. That's the lamest thing ever.
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 1:17pm
Motoxdoc wrote:
Soooo James is banned from racing for 16 months for not telling anyone he was taking the drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to...
Soooo James is banned from racing for 16 months for not telling anyone he was taking the drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
Whistling It sounds just as wrong no matter how you word it.
It really doesn't. He failed a drugs test, and when he failed the drugs test he didn't have anything in place that said he was allowed to take it. The fact that WADA has approved a TUE that says he can take it when he returns to racing is completely irrelevant. At the time he failed the drugs test he wasn't allowed to take it. It's massive negligence on his part, and that was something that the FIM said in their statement. Add to that the fact that he then went against the FIM and raced the outdoors when he was provisionally suspended, what is essentially an 8 month ban doesn't seem so excessive.

Also, WADA the FIM and the lawyers that handled the case all had information on the case that we haven't got. Until that information is made public knowledge we can't say whether or not the ban was excessive
12/19/2014 1:31pm
Motoxdoc wrote:
So James is banned from racing for 16 months for taking a drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
RY4N37 wrote:
No. He's banned for not telling anyone he was taking the drug until after he tested positive for it. There's a difference
Motoxdoc wrote:
Soooo James is banned from racing for 16 months for not telling anyone he was taking the drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to...
Soooo James is banned from racing for 16 months for not telling anyone he was taking the drug that......he's allowed to take if he returns to racing thereafter?Huh
Whistling It sounds just as wrong no matter how you word it.
Some of you must not understand what a "rule" means. It's similar to "law". You can't break them. If you do, there is a consequence. It's not supposed to matter "who you are". These things are serious. These top paid riders have legal counsel, team managers, trainers and agents to help make decisions. These professionals know the rules including the TUE process. I would bet that no agent, lawyer or team manager would advise a rider to forgo getting a TUE; there is too much at stake. You can't play like you didn't know. This is the real world.

gsxrcr28
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12/19/2014 1:42pm
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
hvaughn88
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12/19/2014 1:43pm
The only way I could see it being advised would be if a precedent was set that "forgetting" to submit for a TUE resulted a lenient penalty since it's "only a paperwork error." I bet we would see a lot more people "forgetting" a TUE if they thought they might not pass a test. In my opinion, that's why the penalty has to be the same, regardless of intent. Basically, it would be easier to claim ignorance as opposed to intentions of cheating. The length of the penalty can be scrutinized until you're blue in the face, but it really won't get you anywhere.
hvaughn88
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12/19/2014 1:47pm Edited Date/Time 12/19/2014 1:49pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
The issue I have with that though, is if people were so against the penalty length (which was apparent from their earlier rulings), why weren't they fighting it before a rider got busted?

It's eerily similar to the 4 stroke argument (sorry, ya I went there haha). They were the greatest thing and everyone wanted them at first, and now they are basically a curse word and commonly referenced as "killing the sport"
Fraser
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12/19/2014 1:49pm
hvaughn88 wrote:
The only way I could see it being advised would be if a precedent was set that "forgetting" to submit for a TUE resulted a lenient...
The only way I could see it being advised would be if a precedent was set that "forgetting" to submit for a TUE resulted a lenient penalty since it's "only a paperwork error." I bet we would see a lot more people "forgetting" a TUE if they thought they might not pass a test. In my opinion, that's why the penalty has to be the same, regardless of intent. Basically, it would be easier to claim ignorance as opposed to intentions of cheating. The length of the penalty can be scrutinized until you're blue in the face, but it really won't get you anywhere.
Well said, you've consistently spoken a lot of sense throughout this debacle
Fraser
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12/19/2014 1:51pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
Or james fault, penalty exactly in line with previous WaDA drug test fails
Hut
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12/19/2014 1:51pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
hvaughn88 wrote:
The issue I have with that though, is if people were so against the penalty length (which was apparent from their earlier rulings), why weren't they...
The issue I have with that though, is if people were so against the penalty length (which was apparent from their earlier rulings), why weren't they fighting it before a rider got busted?

It's eerily similar to the 4 stroke argument (sorry, ya I went there haha). They were the greatest thing and everyone wanted them at first, and now they are basically a curse word and commonly referenced as "killing the sport"
Which people?
RY4N37
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12/19/2014 1:52pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
But we don't have all the information that the decision was based on. Until we do we can't say whether the ban was too long or not. What we do know is that he violated doping rules and then broke his provisional suspension by racing the nationals. Those aren't minor offences
hvaughn88
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12/19/2014 1:54pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
Wow, this argument is still going on Laughing

The funny thing is almost everyone is in agreement. James fault, penalty way too long.
hvaughn88 wrote:
The issue I have with that though, is if people were so against the penalty length (which was apparent from their earlier rulings), why weren't they...
The issue I have with that though, is if people were so against the penalty length (which was apparent from their earlier rulings), why weren't they fighting it before a rider got busted?

It's eerily similar to the 4 stroke argument (sorry, ya I went there haha). They were the greatest thing and everyone wanted them at first, and now they are basically a curse word and commonly referenced as "killing the sport"
Hut wrote:
Which people?
For drug testing or 4 strokes? Either way, I'm making an assumption (obviously not smart, but I'll risk it) based on everything I've read and seen over the last several years. If you're asking I specify certain people, then you got me, I can't.

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