What is an appropriate penalty?

tprice07
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12/13/2014 7:55am
Fraser wrote:
I have a bit of an update which may or may not be true, but at least its a real update! And its the first real...
I have a bit of an update which may or may not be true, but at least its a real update! And its the first real news I've heard.

Apparently this is being handled by some outside lawyers that the FIM have brought in. The delay is between the FIM's lawyers and JS's legal team. Even the FIM are baffled by how long its all taking.

You have to think, seeing as James never argued the failed result, wouldn't he have been better off just accepting a penalty?
Rather than appealing and going through an expensive drawn out legal saga. He might have got a 6 month ban and been racing again by now. I guess that depends on what ban he thought he was facing...
My vital speculation for the day would be that James' initial penalty was issued to him. Likely, it was a 2 year suspension or something that James felt was unreasonable. Given that, James has a bit of money, FIM and or WADA can't spend all its money on one issue.

A lot of legal battles are won by simply draining the opponent's legal bank account. My guess, that is what is happening now. I'm guessing at the end of the appeal process(es) James' attorneys filed a lawsuit/counter suit of some sort against WADA. They will file continuances, stays whatever until the WADA/FIM just give up. At which point, James will essentially spell out his own penalty..which will be....all points lost from the date of the failed test until the end of the SX season. Nationals will be unaffected..and possibly a 6 month suspension...from the time of the failed drug test. With that James will be on the line for A1 with double the dosage.

As a side note, this is entirely speculation and has absolutely no source other than my creative mind.
jonjon714
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12/13/2014 7:57am
Give him an Arthur Tweedie "NO STARS" and send him on his way.
OW38B
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12/13/2014 8:21am
Feld, FIM, AMA and WADA all apologize to JBS for this whole fiasco.

And they issue a big check to him for "lost wages" and "damage to reputation."

Situation is nothing but a big circus complete with many clowns.



dhp_mma94
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12/13/2014 8:35am
haloti ngata from the baltimore ravens got suspended for 4 games for using adderall , i'd say just suspend james for 4 or 5 races then , there problem solved & pay a fine

The Shop

TeamGreen
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12/13/2014 8:44am
Olson wrote:
Washington Capitals ice hockey player Nicklas Bäckström got caught with Zyrtec D in his blood after the quarter finals in this years Olympics. Zyrtec D contains...
Washington Capitals ice hockey player Nicklas Bäckström got caught with Zyrtec D in his blood after the quarter finals in this years Olympics. Zyrtec D contains pseudoefedrin which is on the no-go-list of WADA above 150 microgram/milliliter. He got an emediate ban. The process continued after the Olympics, Nicklas went back to NHL and started playing with his team and later WADA came up with nothing. Same thing happend in the Olympics in 2010 and the player was free to continue the tournament.
This is a medicine prescribed by a doctor and the recommended dose is one pill a day but illegal on matchday to stay under WADAS max.

What I'm getting at is the outcome of the penalties from WADA can differ from case to case and it usually takes a lot of time (since they handle a lot of cases). BUT medicine even if you have a TUE or not and it's prescribed by a doctor usually don't end up with much more than a slap on the wrist.

2 years ban is used for EPO, steroids and PEDs. Medicine is none of them. If James ends up with a 2 year ban WADA will be forced to change the system and they will have to fight appeals from a lot of competitors in other sports.
Nice!

But, he didn't apply for a TUE until after the fact (that's the story we've been told); so, based on the intent of the rule(s) & the violation...

I'd fine his ass $50K and put that money towards the Asterisk Rig & an Injured Riders fund. His next infraction would cost him a Minimmum of 1 year. If you think James wouldn't feel the impact of $50K? Well, you're confusing SX with F1.

And, let's be very clear: I like James & I'm hoping he shreds.


Good Luck!
BAMX
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12/13/2014 9:01am
Olson wrote:
Washington Capitals ice hockey player Nicklas Bäckström got caught with Zyrtec D in his blood after the quarter finals in this years Olympics. Zyrtec D contains...
Washington Capitals ice hockey player Nicklas Bäckström got caught with Zyrtec D in his blood after the quarter finals in this years Olympics. Zyrtec D contains pseudoefedrin which is on the no-go-list of WADA above 150 microgram/milliliter. He got an emediate ban. The process continued after the Olympics, Nicklas went back to NHL and started playing with his team and later WADA came up with nothing. Same thing happend in the Olympics in 2010 and the player was free to continue the tournament.
This is a medicine prescribed by a doctor and the recommended dose is one pill a day but illegal on matchday to stay under WADAS max.

What I'm getting at is the outcome of the penalties from WADA can differ from case to case and it usually takes a lot of time (since they handle a lot of cases). BUT medicine even if you have a TUE or not and it's prescribed by a doctor usually don't end up with much more than a slap on the wrist.

2 years ban is used for EPO, steroids and PEDs. Medicine is none of them. If James ends up with a 2 year ban WADA will be forced to change the system and they will have to fight appeals from a lot of competitors in other sports.
TeamGreen wrote:
Nice! But, he didn't apply for a TUE until after the fact (that's the story we've been told); so, based on the intent of the rule(s)...
Nice!

But, he didn't apply for a TUE until after the fact (that's the story we've been told); so, based on the intent of the rule(s) & the violation...

I'd fine his ass $50K and put that money towards the Asterisk Rig & an Injured Riders fund. His next infraction would cost him a Minimmum of 1 year. If you think James wouldn't feel the impact of $50K? Well, you're confusing SX with F1.

And, let's be very clear: I like James & I'm hoping he shreds.


Good Luck!
This sounds reasonable but they will never donate the money to a good cause...IMO I would add a time served as he already missed Monster cup and any pay that he would have had there.
bvm111
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12/13/2014 11:33am
time served....lets go racing... done!

this whole doping thing is dopey and a waste of time energy and resources.

GuyB
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12/13/2014 11:38am Edited Date/Time 12/13/2014 11:38am
Appropriate penalty? That he has to read the posts in here for a month. Two if you're cruel. Wink
APLMAN99
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12/13/2014 7:42pm
Fraser wrote:
I have a bit of an update which may or may not be true, but at least its a real update! And its the first real...
I have a bit of an update which may or may not be true, but at least its a real update! And its the first real news I've heard.

Apparently this is being handled by some outside lawyers that the FIM have brought in. The delay is between the FIM's lawyers and JS's legal team. Even the FIM are baffled by how long its all taking.

You have to think, seeing as James never argued the failed result, wouldn't he have been better off just accepting a penalty?
Rather than appealing and going through an expensive drawn out legal saga. He might have got a 6 month ban and been racing again by now. I guess that depends on what ban he thought he was facing...
tprice07 wrote:
My vital speculation for the day would be that James' initial penalty was issued to him. Likely, it was a 2 year suspension or something that...
My vital speculation for the day would be that James' initial penalty was issued to him. Likely, it was a 2 year suspension or something that James felt was unreasonable. Given that, James has a bit of money, FIM and or WADA can't spend all its money on one issue.

A lot of legal battles are won by simply draining the opponent's legal bank account. My guess, that is what is happening now. I'm guessing at the end of the appeal process(es) James' attorneys filed a lawsuit/counter suit of some sort against WADA. They will file continuances, stays whatever until the WADA/FIM just give up. At which point, James will essentially spell out his own penalty..which will be....all points lost from the date of the failed test until the end of the SX season. Nationals will be unaffected..and possibly a 6 month suspension...from the time of the failed drug test. With that James will be on the line for A1 with double the dosage.

As a side note, this is entirely speculation and has absolutely no source other than my creative mind.
I think you've got the deep pockets reversed in your scenario.
markit
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12/14/2014 3:26am
Death by stoning should do!!
FreshTopEnd
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12/14/2014 9:17am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2014 9:20am
As noted by someone, accepting a penalty or contesting it turns on the severity of the penalty one is asked to accept (I don't really agree with the churning fees to bury an opponent theory, though; it's more likely the lawyers between the two camps have other matters they are distracted on).

If they told him they were going to impose a two year penalty, then of course he is going to contest it; that's death penalty for Stew's career given that it already is in its twilight.

That said, no one here knows what's going on in those negotiations (which is what this is, apparently, because as far as I know the FIM has never issued a final penalty that Stew would appeal to the CAS - which one thinks they would have done quickly if they felt on solid ground for the penalty they want to levy).

In reality, no one here knows enough about the underlying circumstances to be answering the OP's question about what's appropriate. It's a natural question given how curious folks are to know how it will be resolved; but there is no meaningful answer to it until people know all of the circumstances that would be taken into account when the results manager determines what penalty to levy. All it invites is an endless circle of incomplete hypotheticals that will tell you more about the poster's attitude toward Stew than it will have anything to do with what actually happened.

WADA recommends penalties ranging from only loss of the event results to long term suspensions depending on the circumstances. So, simply testing positive - the only fact people know here (other than that the WADA and USADA now have legitimized Stew's therapeutic use of Adderal at least going forward) - doesn't tell anyone here a thing about what penalty would be appropriate. All the facts that go into assessing what penalty is appropriate are being hashed out in the adversary proceeding, not here among the "experts" on a message board this stage.

It will be a relief to hear real facts and real news; hopefully soon. What will be interesting is whether the facts actually change anyone's mind given how vested people are in their opinions about Stew.
Fraser
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12/14/2014 10:24am Edited Date/Time 12/14/2014 11:17am
Forget what I said about the delay being lawyers to lawyers. The delay would seem to be just the FIMs lawyers taking a long time to decide on a penalty. Why they put the decision out to lawyers, I have no idea? Maybe they were worried about the fallout from any decision? I guess the lawyers aren't too worried about dates, seasons and A1, they'd just be concerned with legalities.
That seems to fit with what Guy B said the other day about the Stewart camp not knowing what the hold up was.
Tarz483
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12/14/2014 12:47pm
Time Served .
DownSouth
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12/14/2014 1:24pm
4 races.
ando
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12/14/2014 10:02pm
As noted by someone, accepting a penalty or contesting it turns on the severity of the penalty one is asked to accept (I don't really agree...
As noted by someone, accepting a penalty or contesting it turns on the severity of the penalty one is asked to accept (I don't really agree with the churning fees to bury an opponent theory, though; it's more likely the lawyers between the two camps have other matters they are distracted on).

If they told him they were going to impose a two year penalty, then of course he is going to contest it; that's death penalty for Stew's career given that it already is in its twilight.

That said, no one here knows what's going on in those negotiations (which is what this is, apparently, because as far as I know the FIM has never issued a final penalty that Stew would appeal to the CAS - which one thinks they would have done quickly if they felt on solid ground for the penalty they want to levy).

In reality, no one here knows enough about the underlying circumstances to be answering the OP's question about what's appropriate. It's a natural question given how curious folks are to know how it will be resolved; but there is no meaningful answer to it until people know all of the circumstances that would be taken into account when the results manager determines what penalty to levy. All it invites is an endless circle of incomplete hypotheticals that will tell you more about the poster's attitude toward Stew than it will have anything to do with what actually happened.

WADA recommends penalties ranging from only loss of the event results to long term suspensions depending on the circumstances. So, simply testing positive - the only fact people know here (other than that the WADA and USADA now have legitimized Stew's therapeutic use of Adderal at least going forward) - doesn't tell anyone here a thing about what penalty would be appropriate. All the facts that go into assessing what penalty is appropriate are being hashed out in the adversary proceeding, not here among the "experts" on a message board this stage.

It will be a relief to hear real facts and real news; hopefully soon. What will be interesting is whether the facts actually change anyone's mind given how vested people are in their opinions about Stew.
Nonetheless, WADA and the FIM will have a decent catalogue of past cases on which to base their penalty, many of which are known publicy so their is some basis for a discussion on what his penalty will be. And this is a benchracing/discussion forum.

WADA clearly is removed enough from the individual sports to not be moved by emotional arguments about how a particular penalty will affect an athlete.

I think the FIM are in the most delicate situation - this is a test case (for SX/MX) so I think it would be dangerous for them to be lenient if they want to maintain the credibility of their testing program. On the other hand a two year suspension is probably over the top. BTW, I think any penalty has to involve suspension for a few reasons. First, a suspension really hits the riders where it hurts; fines don't do that. Second, it would be pretty hard to establish consistent penalties for future cases based on monetary suspension - how much do you fine a privateer?

Despite your assertion, I don't have a polarised view of James Stewart; what I do have is a polarised view on drugs in sport. I'm finding it pretty hard to comprehend why a rider in James' position didn't have the TUE filed and squared away a long time ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but they've been conducting testing in SX for several years now, so ignorance of the requirements doesn't wash with me.
SwapperMX
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12/14/2014 10:21pm
GuyB wrote:
Appropriate penalty? That he has to read the posts in here for a month. Two if you're cruel. Wink
What about posting here under an alias and see how long it takes before anyone works out who he is ??
Hut
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12/14/2014 10:29pm
Appropriate penalty? Joker lane for 3 races. Dry
Crush
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12/14/2014 10:56pm
DownSouth wrote:
4 races.
What time served has he done?
ando
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12/14/2014 11:09pm
DownSouth wrote:
4 races.
Crush wrote:
What time served has he done?
MXdN, although that might be difficult for Stewart to argue if he wasn't selected. Not sure if the ME Cup was FIM sanctioned? In any case, two races served at most, maybe none.
Crush
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12/14/2014 11:16pm
He didn't miss the MXDN because of that, he missed cause he wasn't selected, because he wasn't racing the nationals, because he was "dehydrated" and "still recovering"...

Monster cup he might have been able to argue, assuming he wasn't allowed to race... Assumptions tho, and if they're gonna hand out a 1 race penalty, they might as well ask him for 20 bucks and tell everyone else drugs are ok.
scott_nz
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12/14/2014 11:30pm
if you go on the Ant West case, which is similar, the FIM might be between a rock and a hard place, being JS's lawyers, and WADA's ones, WADA has deep pockets to keep this going,

still has taken far to long tho,

background to the Ant West story,

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/11/23/ant_west_loses_in_doping_app…

Crush
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12/14/2014 11:38pm
scott_nz wrote:
if you go on the Ant West case, which is similar, the FIM might be between a rock and a hard place, being JS's lawyers, and...
if you go on the Ant West case, which is similar, the FIM might be between a rock and a hard place, being JS's lawyers, and WADA's ones, WADA has deep pockets to keep this going,

still has taken far to long tho,

background to the Ant West story,

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/11/23/ant_west_loses_in_doping_app…

Hadn't read that, cheers...

Energy drink–Mesomorph? Energy drink my ass. That's a pre-workout, i've had it, I'm not a gym junkie and I looked at the contents and knew that shit wasn't gonna be ok by anything... And again, how fucking dopey to take that without looking at the ingredients...
ando
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12/14/2014 11:39pm
Crush wrote:
He didn't miss the MXDN because of that, he missed cause he wasn't selected, because he wasn't racing the nationals, because he was "dehydrated" and "still...
He didn't miss the MXDN because of that, he missed cause he wasn't selected, because he wasn't racing the nationals, because he was "dehydrated" and "still recovering"...

Monster cup he might have been able to argue, assuming he wasn't allowed to race... Assumptions tho, and if they're gonna hand out a 1 race penalty, they might as well ask him for 20 bucks and tell everyone else drugs are ok.
I agree, just pointing out the only two possible FIM races he could claim as time served.

Also agree about the penalty. I think anything less than about a 4 race suspension is too lenient. I would guess somewhere in the range of six months or so seems likely based on other cases.
TDeath21
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12/14/2014 11:41pm Edited Date/Time 12/14/2014 11:41pm
I think it should be a 2-4 race suspension.
ando
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12/14/2014 11:41pm
scott_nz wrote:
if you go on the Ant West case, which is similar, the FIM might be between a rock and a hard place, being JS's lawyers, and...
if you go on the Ant West case, which is similar, the FIM might be between a rock and a hard place, being JS's lawyers, and WADA's ones, WADA has deep pockets to keep this going,

still has taken far to long tho,

background to the Ant West story,

http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/11/23/ant_west_loses_in_doping_app…

That's not a good sign for Stewart, if that's a precedent.
scott_nz
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12/15/2014 12:29am
Crush wrote:
Hadn't read that, cheers... Energy drink–Mesomorph? Energy drink my ass. That's a pre-workout, i've had it, I'm not a gym junkie and I looked at the...
Hadn't read that, cheers...

Energy drink–Mesomorph? Energy drink my ass. That's a pre-workout, i've had it, I'm not a gym junkie and I looked at the contents and knew that shit wasn't gonna be ok by anything... And again, how fucking dopey to take that without looking at the ingredients...
Ok, thought it would be something like that,

Josh Coppins also got done for a failed drug test in 2002, and lost points for one round, but did not get a ban in the end,

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=2048659

Crush
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12/15/2014 1:25am
Not for nothing too, that mesomorph, holy fuckballs, it's amazing.

Focus and strength, speed, all through the roof. At a time when I was squatting 160 I could do plus 10 on that just from that, even if I was tired.
GuyB
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12/15/2014 6:39am
SwapperMX wrote:
What about posting here under an alias and see how long it takes before anyone works out who he is ??
That already happened. Only I think I was the only one who figured out who it was.

It was sort of funny to watch him tell people what was going on during a Supercross season, and seeing people tell him to shut up, and that he didn't know what he was talking about.
12/15/2014 7:20am
you should have chose a she, that would have really fu**ed with people
Hut
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12/15/2014 8:51am
SwapperMX wrote:
What about posting here under an alias and see how long it takes before anyone works out who he is ??
GuyB wrote:
That already happened. Only I think I was the only one who figured out who it was. It was sort of funny to watch him tell...
That already happened. Only I think I was the only one who figured out who it was.

It was sort of funny to watch him tell people what was going on during a Supercross season, and seeing people tell him to shut up, and that he didn't know what he was talking about.
Woohoo Woohoo Woohoo

When did that happen?

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