Lappers 15 minutes to stay on the lead lap

500guy
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Edited Date/Time 8/26/2014 1:20pm
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
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wow123
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8/23/2014 9:44pm
was bad at utah with the short laptimes, watching it was "huh lappers already?"
GuyB
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8/23/2014 9:48pm
But one of the traditions here that fans seem to love is that a privateer can show up in a pickup truck and compete with guys at the highest level.

There are also 40-rider gates. Are you suggesting that's another tradition that might be outdated?
mmcmx
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8/24/2014 2:43am
GuyB wrote:
But one of the traditions here that fans seem to love is that a privateer can show up in a pickup truck and compete with guys...
But one of the traditions here that fans seem to love is that a privateer can show up in a pickup truck and compete with guys at the highest level.

There are also 40-rider gates. Are you suggesting that's another tradition that might be outdated?
I think yes.
8/24/2014 3:02am Edited Date/Time 8/24/2014 3:05am
GuyB wrote:
But one of the traditions here that fans seem to love is that a privateer can show up in a pickup truck and compete with guys...
But one of the traditions here that fans seem to love is that a privateer can show up in a pickup truck and compete with guys at the highest level.

There are also 40-rider gates. Are you suggesting that's another tradition that might be outdated?
mmcmx wrote:
I think yes.
By the look of this year's series definitely,actually it maybe seems worse each year the title could've gone by virtue of Roczens near crash there,sure everyone has to deal with them but they're so unpredictable

The Shop

8/24/2014 4:47am
i also said this rock.. 15 min mark 25th thru last pull off. if they dont like this idea. pay freakin points back to 40th!!
its stupid to have guys out there for no pts that could effect titles and health etc..
im all for the privateer but look how many are cruising at this point anyways.


mx sports------- pay pts to the full gate and pull off lappers by lap times that are too slow if you are not racing,you get pulled.
-------- keep pts the same and cut the field at 15 minutes to 25 riders.
8/24/2014 4:57am
Does this forum software have the functionality to allow members to vote? We should vote and send the results to The Powers That Be, whoever they are.

philG
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8/24/2014 5:09am
In Mxgp in Germany, 3.5 seconds covered the top 25 in qualifying.. In Utah that amount covered the top 4.. 25th was more than 15 seconds a lap off.. Dread to think what the slowest qualifier was
was. It's a weak field, and getting weaker year on year, due to falling rider numbers and the knock in effect that has. The kid that won the 150 Honda cup in loket was only 16 seconds off Jeremy van hoorebeek, yet that time would get you in a national.
8/24/2014 6:25am
What is interesting is the 250 class is way more stacked than the 450 now. It was the opposite in the past. I like the idea of paying points to 40th. Give everyone something to race for.
TeamGreen
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8/24/2014 6:29am
What is interesting is the 250 class is way more stacked than the 450 now. It was the opposite in the past. I like the idea...
What is interesting is the 250 class is way more stacked than the 450 now. It was the opposite in the past. I like the idea of paying points to 40th. Give everyone something to race for.
Yup
8/24/2014 6:43am
Change the blue flag to a black one.
GuyB
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8/24/2014 6:43am
Does this forum software have the functionality to allow members to vote? We should vote and send the results to The Powers That Be, whoever they...
Does this forum software have the functionality to allow members to vote? We should vote and send the results to The Powers That Be, whoever they are.

We need to raise the collective IQ before that sounds like a good idea. Wink
Squid-mom
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8/24/2014 7:08am
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting worse only because of the economy. The top guys have so much and the privateers have so little. Years ago there were alot more riders getting help than there is now. Many of the back markers have none of the 'works' stuff on their bikes, have to work other jobs, etc etc. Another reason I dislike the schedule zig-zagging across the country, it is going to continue to get worse if something isn't changed to make the privateers stand a chance.
Overdrive
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8/24/2014 7:25am
You have 250 class riders that should be in the 450 class because no one moves them up. Those "novice" pro's shouldn't even have a chance to get into the 450 class because it should be so stacked. Instead you have the opposite because of 250 class riders who should be moved up or move up on their own.

Its out of whack and until you start moving up faster 250 guys you will have slower people qualifying in the 450.

Increase the incentive for guys to move up. Don't penalize guys.

Sorry but if they qualified for the 450 class they should be able to finish the complete race, they paid their dues and made it.
brocster
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8/24/2014 7:34am
IMO i don't think pulling them off is a good idea but giving them something to race for is. i.e. points. do away with the permanent numbering system, which I don't think has worked in the way that it was envisioned and award 2 digit national numbers based on year end points. ala the old days. i.e the guy in 29th can see the guy in 28th and has something to work for (short term goal) vs. the guy in 29th needing to get to 20th, who he can't even see (long term goal) to get a single point. Keep in mind the big picture, these are the fastest top 40 riders we have to fill the gate and if there are 40 spots they should be able to race the entire time just like the rest if there is something to race for within the race...

I get the whole "get faster" thing and I know first hand that - that is what every privateer is attempting but we shoot ourselves in the foot by having them zig zag across the US trying to train on the road, ride a little practice etc. etc. In other words one of the only places a privateer has a chance to get faster is at the race, during the race and that is a slow process....

blast away!
DonM
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8/24/2014 7:51am
Overdrive wrote:
You have 250 class riders that should be in the 450 class because no one moves them up. Those "novice" pro's shouldn't even have a chance...
You have 250 class riders that should be in the 450 class because no one moves them up. Those "novice" pro's shouldn't even have a chance to get into the 450 class because it should be so stacked. Instead you have the opposite because of 250 class riders who should be moved up or move up on their own.

Its out of whack and until you start moving up faster 250 guys you will have slower people qualifying in the 450.

Increase the incentive for guys to move up. Don't penalize guys.

Sorry but if they qualified for the 450 class they should be able to finish the complete race, they paid their dues and made it.
The 250 class is not a beginners class for pros, we can't fault these guys for taking what's available to them so they can make a living racing motorcycles.
Use the GP's as an example, forcing riders to move up to the 450's at 23 has made the 450 class deeper and their 250 weaker, but only to a point and that point is available rides, it's why they have less than 25 racers per round. The result is capable riders being forced out of the premiere races and to a 2nd tier national series making little to no money. If that was done in the US where would those riders go? We don't have a lesser national series for them to go to.
I saw somewhere on here where someone commented that the qualifying times for the top 25 in GP's was much closer together than even our 4th to 5th guys. I do feel that the top four would easily be in the top 5 in the GP's but our 5th-10th guys would never know because there wouldn't be a ride available to them because of the 23yr old rule they have in the 250 class.

I'm not sure what the answer is or even if there is one, but by using the example of the GP's forcing riders up certainly isn't one.
RandyS
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8/24/2014 8:02am
AMA needs to run more like NASCAR. Restrictor plates on the guys that are going too fast. It would slow the top riders down which would be safer for them and would make for a better race. With the electronics on bikes it would be easy to adjust the power. Maybe everyone could have a pass button like Indycar too.
philG
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8/24/2014 8:09am
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the big class.. Mxgp class it going to be 30 riders next year, and the spread at most races will be less than the top 5 in ama... I guess when you bring back the injured and 'just resting' guys, that will stick another 5 or 6 guys in at the top end,which will make it a bit better, but at unadilla the guy in 5th was 8 seconds a lap off in one of the races... That's scary.
Overdrive
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8/24/2014 8:27am
philG wrote:
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the...
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the big class.. Mxgp class it going to be 30 riders next year, and the spread at most races will be less than the top 5 in ama... I guess when you bring back the injured and 'just resting' guys, that will stick another 5 or 6 guys in at the top end,which will make it a bit better, but at unadilla the guy in 5th was 8 seconds a lap off in one of the races... That's scary.
PhilG I would agree with you.

Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class.

For those who think the 250 class isn't the beginner class for pro's, need to tell me where the new Pros coming out of Loretta Lynns go? The new pros go into 250 class, because its the beginner class for the vast majority of pro's.

Very rarely do they come out of Loretta Lynn's and try to make it in the 450 class and if they do its because the 250 class is just to stacked with people who should have moved up.

They cut their teeth and then there should be enough incentive for them to move on to the 450's.

But this debate will go on forever with no solution like purse money, 2 strokes and...................
SpotMeBro
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8/24/2014 8:27am
107% Rule.
philG
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8/24/2014 8:47am
Squid-mom wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting...
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting worse only because of the economy. The top guys have so much and the privateers have so little. Years ago there were alot more riders getting help than there is now. Many of the back markers have none of the 'works' stuff on their bikes, have to work other jobs, etc etc. Another reason I dislike the schedule zig-zagging across the country, it is going to continue to get worse if something isn't changed to make the privateers stand a chance.
But there have always been factory bikes, and non factory bikes... Guys running outside the top 15 can still get access to pretty much everything, as it's off the shelf stuff for Ama.. In gp's you have proper factory stuff, but ama, the bikes don't differ that much, same as anything, if you have the$$ , you can have the kit.
DonM
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8/24/2014 8:50am
philG wrote:
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the...
The thing is, they aren't fast enough.. And while you have the perpetual draft dodgers like baggett and davalos,there isn't enough of a movement into the big class.. Mxgp class it going to be 30 riders next year, and the spread at most races will be less than the top 5 in ama... I guess when you bring back the injured and 'just resting' guys, that will stick another 5 or 6 guys in at the top end,which will make it a bit better, but at unadilla the guy in 5th was 8 seconds a lap off in one of the races... That's scary.
Overdrive wrote:
PhilG I would agree with you. Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class. For those...
PhilG I would agree with you.

Musquin, Wilson, Seely, Pourcel, Osbourne are just a few more that should not be in the 250 class.

For those who think the 250 class isn't the beginner class for pro's, need to tell me where the new Pros coming out of Loretta Lynns go? The new pros go into 250 class, because its the beginner class for the vast majority of pro's.

Very rarely do they come out of Loretta Lynn's and try to make it in the 450 class and if they do its because the 250 class is just to stacked with people who should have moved up.

They cut their teeth and then there should be enough incentive for them to move on to the 450's.

But this debate will go on forever with no solution like purse money, 2 strokes and...................
So you want force riders to be privateers? The only incentive to move to the 450's is a good ride that pays better than their current one and they are far and few in-between.
SpotMeBro
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8/24/2014 8:58am Edited Date/Time 8/24/2014 8:59am
Make the 250 class a box stock class. No Mods at all..
Only bars, grips, gearing, jetting for Carbed and Nothing for EFI, and tires......
For suspension, only OEM parts, springs etc.

450 class......how fast can you afford to go.

JT$ said, If you're racing the 250 class, it's a hobby..
zippy895
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8/24/2014 9:00am
500guy wrote:
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes...
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
so you saying,if you get lapped in that time frame,said lapper gets half his entry fee and expenses back?
Flip109
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8/24/2014 9:04am
I like the 107% rule
500guy
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8/24/2014 9:06am
500guy wrote:
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes...
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
zippy895 wrote:
so you saying,if you get lapped in that time frame,said lapper gets half his entry fee and expenses back?
Said lapper gets faster or He isn't going to make it, Racing is not a Charity.
DonM
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8/24/2014 9:09am
SpotMeBro wrote:
Make the 250 class a box stock class. No Mods at all.. Only bars, grips, gearing, jetting for Carbed and Nothing for EFI, and tires...... For...
Make the 250 class a box stock class. No Mods at all..
Only bars, grips, gearing, jetting for Carbed and Nothing for EFI, and tires......
For suspension, only OEM parts, springs etc.

450 class......how fast can you afford to go.

JT$ said, If you're racing the 250 class, it's a hobby..
He was speaking of 250SX....In outdoors they pay the same.
zippy895
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8/24/2014 9:10am
500guy wrote:
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes...
The lappers are getting worse all the time, I wonder how bad it might be to start flagging them off the track completely after 15 minutes anyone outside 30th not on the lead lap gets flagged off.

Anyone who makes the Motos are bad ass rider no doubt but there are 3-4 different levels out there these day's.

I hate to see some guy getting beat to death out there affecting the results of the leaders.
zippy895 wrote:
so you saying,if you get lapped in that time frame,said lapper gets half his entry fee and expenses back?
500guy wrote:
Said lapper gets faster or He isn't going to make it, Racing is not a Charity.
they did "get faster" than any other local/regional racers who try to qualify for a pro race.
SpotMeBro
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8/24/2014 9:22am
SpotMeBro wrote:
Make the 250 class a box stock class. No Mods at all.. Only bars, grips, gearing, jetting for Carbed and Nothing for EFI, and tires...... For...
Make the 250 class a box stock class. No Mods at all..
Only bars, grips, gearing, jetting for Carbed and Nothing for EFI, and tires......
For suspension, only OEM parts, springs etc.

450 class......how fast can you afford to go.

JT$ said, If you're racing the 250 class, it's a hobby..
DonM wrote:
He was speaking of 250SX....In outdoors they pay the same.
Which is nothing.

Most of these lappers arent even racing. Most are out there riding off line, not jumping the jumps etc, just staying out of the way of the fast dudes.

Im not talking about a lapper like Peick or RV or Reed who crashed, Im talking about guys that really shouldnt be out there.

A 107% rule would be great. With a 2 minute lap time, if you are more than 2:08.5, you're out.
Or maybe make it 110% tops.

Lots of these guys are 10-20 seconds a lap off. Think about that.


wow123
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8/24/2014 9:27am Edited Date/Time 8/24/2014 9:31am
Squid-mom wrote:
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting...
I wouldn't say it is a weak field because 99.9% of you couldn't run with that 'weak field'. That said, I think the problem is getting worse only because of the economy. The top guys have so much and the privateers have so little. Years ago there were alot more riders getting help than there is now. Many of the back markers have none of the 'works' stuff on their bikes, have to work other jobs, etc etc. Another reason I dislike the schedule zig-zagging across the country, it is going to continue to get worse if something isn't changed to make the privateers stand a chance.
did anyone say: |"ve got em covered|?

some of your other stuff has merit

lapper are and always should be apart of the sport

you often dont know how slow you're going till someone flys past you when you think you;re gonig flat out.
zippy895
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8/24/2014 9:27am
SpotMeBro wrote:
Which is nothing. Most of these lappers arent even racing. Most are out there riding off line, not jumping the jumps etc, just staying out of...
Which is nothing.

Most of these lappers arent even racing. Most are out there riding off line, not jumping the jumps etc, just staying out of the way of the fast dudes.

Im not talking about a lapper like Peick or RV or Reed who crashed, Im talking about guys that really shouldnt be out there.

A 107% rule would be great. With a 2 minute lap time, if you are more than 2:08.5, you're out.
Or maybe make it 110% tops.

Lots of these guys are 10-20 seconds a lap off. Think about that.


if you were a privateer,would you even bother signing up for a pro event if they told you,once you are lapped your done?these guys would save the money and dominate local races and always realize the next step up to pro is not happening,unless you are a freak of nature right from the local level.

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