The IV issue

gsxrcr28
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8/2/2014 12:43pm
MxKing809 wrote:
Pure speculation is him going into his RV and being out of sight, then making an accusation with no other information to base your assumption off...
Pure speculation is him going into his RV and being out of sight, then making an accusation with no other information to base your assumption off of. I would say that the nurse was a smoking gun, you just can't prove JS7 was holding it. Other than something like the picture below, I don't know what else would be needed....




But even then.... I'm sure that would be circumstantial because we don't have a DNA sample from the person in the photo, know what is in the bag, know if the stopper is opened allowing flow, etc...
gsxrcr28 wrote:
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation...
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation.

The strange thing is how you and 555 keep posting in every thread to accuse him. We got if the first 6 times, you think he is guilty.
MxKing809 wrote:
I've largely avoided the thread because it's already been hashed out... But to simply deny the situation as stated by the people involved is ignorant.
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with many riders for a long time.
MxKing809
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8/2/2014 12:47pm Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 12:52pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation...
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation.

The strange thing is how you and 555 keep posting in every thread to accuse him. We got if the first 6 times, you think he is guilty.
MxKing809 wrote:
I've largely avoided the thread because it's already been hashed out... But to simply deny the situation as stated by the people involved is ignorant.
gsxrcr28 wrote:
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with...
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with many riders for a long time.
Yup, it definitely has, I completely agree. Unfortunately JS7 got caught IMO, more so than anyone else up to this point. Hopefully it sheds light on the issue at hand, and either prompts a rule change to clarify that it must be approved by AMA provided officials, or regulate them in some way so riders don't feel the need to slump into the shadows to do it.
bigborefan
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8/2/2014 1:31pm
James has a bright future. I can see him on the cover of this magazine in the future.







8/2/2014 1:43pm
Sorry Vital. I didn't want this to be a "James Thing" but I guess I should have known better. Back inside the motorhomes, everyone.

The Shop

bigborefan
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8/2/2014 1:47pm
Sorry Vital. I didn't want this to be a "James Thing" but I guess I should have known better. Back inside the motorhomes, everyone.
It's always a James thing.

He's the man you know? That's why everyone is so concerned, no JSE, no more motocross or supercross, both sports will cease to exist.
8/2/2014 3:43pm
Yeah, "we" will have to find a new villain when he retires. What will people bitch about on here without the 7? And the 22? OK, and Alessi.
8/2/2014 4:30pm Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 4:31pm
Zracer wrote:
Isnt that the pro ped argument? Ya I think natural physiology should play its part. This isnt a videogame. They cant have works bikes. Why should...
Isnt that the pro ped argument? Ya I think natural physiology should play its part. This isnt a videogame. They cant have works bikes. Why should they allow works riders?
IVs put nothing in your system that would not get their naturally via eating, drinking and resting. They just help you do it more quickly. Then there is the safety argument. Riders who are more fatigued...especially if near heat stroke condition make more mistakes...and sometimes take out other riders, etc. What about track workers? There is a track worker from Washougal fighting for his life now after getting T-boned by a rider. IVs are NOTHING at all like PEDs such as AAS (which increase muscular hypertrophy) and EPO (increases O2 carrying ability of your blood). They do not increase your peak capacity to do work and out put power (PEDs do). Properly administered IVs just get you back to your optimal rested state MUCH faster. Doing an IV before a race, however, is of no benefit, and can actually be harmful. There is simply no time due to TV schedules between motors for riders to recover. The digestive system simply does not work that quick....

Finally...there is the issue of enforceability. The current rule CAN NOT BE ENFORCED. That means it WILL BE BROKEN.
8/2/2014 4:34pm Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 4:44pm
gsxrcr28 wrote:
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation...
It would not surprise me if all the riders get IV's and Stewart certainly may have, I still am not going to accuse him with speculation.

The strange thing is how you and 555 keep posting in every thread to accuse him. We got if the first 6 times, you think he is guilty.
MxKing809 wrote:
I've largely avoided the thread because it's already been hashed out... But to simply deny the situation as stated by the people involved is ignorant.
gsxrcr28 wrote:
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with...
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with many riders for a long time.
Bingo.

There are stories of riders training at RCs ranch giving each other IVs to help recover. If you think the knowledge of what to do, and how to do it, is not widely spread throughout the pro racing community you are naive. Does every rider do it between every moto. Certainly not. But if there is a very hot weekend...and it is 100 degrees and 80% humidity...you can guarantee that the every guy on a top team will be prepared to do what he has to do to safely compete come moto 2.

The hypocrisy of some people is comical. We go on and on about how MX is the 'hardest sport in the world'...blah blah blah. OK..lets say it is. I definitely think it is when you talk about high heat. So it is one of the toughest physical challenges there is...and yet we then lie to ourselves and believe that these guys can put out that kind of effort...run a 35 minute moto at the limit in that sort of heat...wearing full gear and a helmet...no way for heat to get out. Then magically recover to do the same in 45 minutes for the TV broadcast? Sorry...it is not happening without some modern medical help.
8/2/2014 4:41pm
Finally...there is the issue of enforceability. The current rule CAN NOT BE ENFORCED. That means it WILL BE BROKEN.

Yeahbro: that was the point of my bringing this up. It is about enforceability. I tried to float a relatively simple idea that the riders will hate but would actually be a pretty strong and simple way of enforcing.

I thought it might lead to an interesting discussion - love or hate my idea - of how we might enforce this rule because I totally agree with you. The other option is to go back to ignoring it and pretend people aren't breaking this rule when we know they are. To me, that should be a non-starter for all. Either we enforce this rule or eliminate it - IMO.
Regis
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8/2/2014 4:56pm Edited Date/Time 8/2/2014 5:19pm
MxKing809 wrote:
I've largely avoided the thread because it's already been hashed out... But to simply deny the situation as stated by the people involved is ignorant.
gsxrcr28 wrote:
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with...
That's why I haven't denied it, I have said it was possible. Listening to the podcast Matthes and JT says it has been going on with many riders for a long time.
Bingo. There are stories of riders training at RCs ranch giving each other IVs to help recover. If you think the knowledge of what to do...
Bingo.

There are stories of riders training at RCs ranch giving each other IVs to help recover. If you think the knowledge of what to do, and how to do it, is not widely spread throughout the pro racing community you are naive. Does every rider do it between every moto. Certainly not. But if there is a very hot weekend...and it is 100 degrees and 80% humidity...you can guarantee that the every guy on a top team will be prepared to do what he has to do to safely compete come moto 2.

The hypocrisy of some people is comical. We go on and on about how MX is the 'hardest sport in the world'...blah blah blah. OK..lets say it is. I definitely think it is when you talk about high heat. So it is one of the toughest physical challenges there is...and yet we then lie to ourselves and believe that these guys can put out that kind of effort...run a 35 minute moto at the limit in that sort of heat...wearing full gear and a helmet...no way for heat to get out. Then magically recover to do the same in 45 minutes for the TV broadcast? Sorry...it is not happening without some modern medical help.
lots and lots and lots and lots of riders do exactly what you just mentioned. They train all week without IV's and line up both motos without them. They push their bodies to the breaking point and then line up and do it again. Nobody is lying to themselves when you say it can be done and actual do it at a very high level. That is why they train and ride and push themselves during the week.

ITS CHEATING IF YOU DO IT BETWEEN MOTOS. No way around it. It's CLEARLY an advantage and that is why it is in the rules you can't do it and has been in the rules for a very long time. That is why you hear of these guys getting them during the week while practicing.

You are delusional if you think the majority of riders are able to get an IV in between motos.

In one post you say doing an IV has no benefit, but in the very next post you say that riders aren't able to "magically recover" in between motos without modern medical help.... So which one is it?

I do agree on the part of enforcing. You can't enforce it unless you monitor the rider(s) that just isn't going to happen. That is why it is all speculation and has been for years on who gets them done.
MX455
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8/2/2014 5:25pm
So what you are saying is that you are more interested in seeing is who has the best natural physiology to recover from heat and dehydration...
So what you are saying is that you are more interested in seeing is who has the best natural physiology to recover from heat and dehydration as opposed to seeing who the best rider is. Recovery from dehydration is not something you can train for. Some people naturally do it better. Sorry, but idea they should never be allowed to use IVs because it helps them recover is absurd. That is precisely why they SHOULD be allowed to take them. It brings the riders back to their optimal condition for competition sooner.
Yes i am, it should go to the better person that is doing it the natural way. You can't train for talent either but as RC showed everyone you can prepare better than anyone and dehydration is apart of that preparation. If they can hold someone off the gate because they hit their head too hard they should hold someone of the get if the are too dehydrated as well. By your argument PED's should be allowed. As side from the up and coming kids, it isn't fair for the privateers either who barely get by as is.
mx5471
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8/2/2014 10:26pm
The basic fact that everyone is missing here, is that cheating is embedded in this sport. It starts the day a kid throws his leg over a pw50, and never stops. If you have raced, you have seen it. . It may be a little different here than in some others, as it is not a team sport. It's all about you. Why anyone would think that the pro's don't take every advantage is beyond me. I don't doubt that they are all breaking the rules to keep that paycheck coming. There are no surprises about this. It's a way of life in this sport.
8/2/2014 11:48pm
bvm111 wrote:
This is even a bigger non issue than the PED mumbo jumbo. The solution should be that asterisk administers 1 500ml saline IV to every rider...
This is even a bigger non issue than the PED mumbo jumbo.

The solution should be that asterisk administers 1 500ml saline IV to every rider after the first moto.... I don't know what the harm would be other than ensuring the riders don't dehydrate.
Bingo.

They been using IVs for years. Now everyone wants to get bent about it? Jeez.
8/2/2014 11:50pm
So what you are saying is that you are more interested in seeing is who has the best natural physiology to recover from heat and dehydration...
So what you are saying is that you are more interested in seeing is who has the best natural physiology to recover from heat and dehydration as opposed to seeing who the best rider is. Recovery from dehydration is not something you can train for. Some people naturally do it better. Sorry, but idea they should never be allowed to use IVs because it helps them recover is absurd. That is precisely why they SHOULD be allowed to take them. It brings the riders back to their optimal condition for competition sooner.
MX455 wrote:
Yes i am, it should go to the better person that is doing it the natural way. You can't train for talent either but as RC...
Yes i am, it should go to the better person that is doing it the natural way. You can't train for talent either but as RC showed everyone you can prepare better than anyone and dehydration is apart of that preparation. If they can hold someone off the gate because they hit their head too hard they should hold someone of the get if the are too dehydrated as well. By your argument PED's should be allowed. As side from the up and coming kids, it isn't fair for the privateers either who barely get by as is.
Your post is so full of irony.

Using RC as your example only hurts your case.
8/2/2014 11:56pm
Sorry Vital. I didn't want this to be a "James Thing" but I guess I should have known better. Back inside the motorhomes, everyone.
Nobody cares until Bubba does it.

All those times P and Lenny have played the race card....maybe they were right. Cause the way the masses handle issues like these sure do make the case for them.
8/2/2014 11:59pm
mx5471 wrote:
The basic fact that everyone is missing here, is that cheating is embedded in this sport. It starts the day a kid throws his leg over...
The basic fact that everyone is missing here, is that cheating is embedded in this sport. It starts the day a kid throws his leg over a pw50, and never stops. If you have raced, you have seen it. . It may be a little different here than in some others, as it is not a team sport. It's all about you. Why anyone would think that the pro's don't take every advantage is beyond me. I don't doubt that they are all breaking the rules to keep that paycheck coming. There are no surprises about this. It's a way of life in this sport.
Your post will get ignored. Far too accurate for a topic of this nature.
MX455
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8/3/2014 4:27am
mx5471 wrote:
The basic fact that everyone is missing here, is that cheating is embedded in this sport. It starts the day a kid throws his leg over...
The basic fact that everyone is missing here, is that cheating is embedded in this sport. It starts the day a kid throws his leg over a pw50, and never stops. If you have raced, you have seen it. . It may be a little different here than in some others, as it is not a team sport. It's all about you. Why anyone would think that the pro's don't take every advantage is beyond me. I don't doubt that they are all breaking the rules to keep that paycheck coming. There are no surprises about this. It's a way of life in this sport.
Right so lets not do anything at all. People cheat at everything in life but that doesn't make it right. Maybe if people were actually punished when caught it wouldn't be such an issue. The problem with this situation is there is no solid proof.
MX455
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8/3/2014 4:50am
Your post is so full of irony.

Using RC as your example only hurts your case.
The sad part is RC is this only one would get my point across but while everyone is speculating he most likely did the same. Money will always rule in this sport but that doesn't mean we should make everything legal so that it makes it ok.
8/3/2014 6:07am
Nobody cares until Bubba does it. All those times P and Lenny have played the race card....maybe they were right. Cause the way the masses handle...
Nobody cares until Bubba does it.

All those times P and Lenny have played the race card....maybe they were right. Cause the way the masses handle issues like these sure do make the case for them.
Do you have any situations that we can compare this to?

When has any other rider tested positive for a PED? When has an employee of another rider made a suspicious comment about IVs?

James is the most popular rider on the planet, PEDs are a blazing hot topic in every sport, and these two incidents came in rapid succession -- do you really expect this to be a non issue? Or is race the only reason we are still talking about it?
bents
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8/3/2014 8:41am
If, and I say, if, IV's are beneficial between motos, then it should continue to be illegal until everyone has the same access or opportunity to have one administered. Until such time, they should remain as they are because the playing field becomes even more unfair then it already is.
Outsider
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8/3/2014 9:06am


8/3/2014 11:06am Edited Date/Time 8/3/2014 11:07am
Nobody cares until Bubba does it. All those times P and Lenny have played the race card....maybe they were right. Cause the way the masses handle...
Nobody cares until Bubba does it.

All those times P and Lenny have played the race card....maybe they were right. Cause the way the masses handle issues like these sure do make the case for them.
TripleFive wrote:
Do you have any situations that we can compare this to? When has any other rider tested positive for a PED? When has an employee of...
Do you have any situations that we can compare this to?

When has any other rider tested positive for a PED? When has an employee of another rider made a suspicious comment about IVs?

James is the most popular rider on the planet, PEDs are a blazing hot topic in every sport, and these two incidents came in rapid succession -- do you really expect this to be a non issue? Or is race the only reason we are still talking about it?
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall.

When was a suspicious comment made about iv's? Here's a clue: It wasn't, his nurse made a comment about administering iv's to James.

You see what you want to see and when that doesn't work, you fill in the blanks with your own made up scenarios.
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 11:29am
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall. When was...
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall.

When was a suspicious comment made about iv's? Here's a clue: It wasn't, his nurse made a comment about administering iv's to James.

You see what you want to see and when that doesn't work, you fill in the blanks with your own made up scenarios.
If I recall the WADA Press Release said "amphetamine". Yosh Suzuki and JSEs release said something about a substance that James had a script for. I don't recall any official release saying ti was Adderall? Am I wrong?
bigborefan
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8/3/2014 11:32am
Yoshimura Suzuki’s James Stewart has been “provisionally suspended” by the Fédération Internationale de Motocyclisme (FIM) after failing a drug test issued by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA).

The test was administered at round 15 of the Monster Energy Supercross Championship in Seattle, Wash. on April 12. The FIM states that Stewart’s urine sample had an “adverse analytical finding of amphetamine.”

The FIM released the following statement on Friday: “The decision to provisionally suspend Mr Stewart was taken following the receipt of a report from the WADA accredited laboratory in Cologne indicating an Adverse Analytical Finding of Amphetamine in a urine sample collected from him at an in-competition test carried out by the FIM at the round of the Monster Energy AMA Supercross, an FIM World Championship held at the Century Link Field, Seattle, Washington, on 12 April 2014.”

Stewart’s team announced that the substance in question is medication that was prescribed to Stewart by his physician to treat a “long-term condition.”

“Stewart, with the full support of Yoshimura Suzuki Racing, is willingly communicating with WADA and taking all appropriate steps to resolve this matter and plans to be at the starting gate at the Tennessee National in Blountville, TN on June 28th, 2014.”

Stewart has the right to request and attend the analysis of his B Sample. The FIM continues by saying: “A provisional suspension imposed by the FIM does not in any way prejudge the question as to whether an anti-doping rule violation under Article 2 of the FIM Anti-Doping Code has actually been committed.”

The two-time Monster Energy Supercross champion scored five victories during the 2014 season but DNFs in the final three races relegated Stewart to a fourth-place finish in the series standings.
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g0rd057
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8/3/2014 11:39am
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall. When was...
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall.

When was a suspicious comment made about iv's? Here's a clue: It wasn't, his nurse made a comment about administering iv's to James.

You see what you want to see and when that doesn't work, you fill in the blanks with your own made up scenarios.
Nurse claiming to administer IV to James should not be taken as factual evidence, but James' camp claiming his failed ped test was due to adderall you take that as a fact?
8/3/2014 11:47am
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall. When was...
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall.

When was a suspicious comment made about iv's? Here's a clue: It wasn't, his nurse made a comment about administering iv's to James.

You see what you want to see and when that doesn't work, you fill in the blanks with your own made up scenarios.
I didn't proclaim Adderall as a PED, the Chairman of WADA's Banned Substances Committee did.

If you can find a source that says that Adderall is not a PED could you please show me?

Is it just a coincidence that the day Stewart's IV nurse is prevented from entering the pits James fails to start the second moto because he was dizzy?
8/3/2014 12:03pm
bigborefan wrote:
If I recall the WADA Press Release said "amphetamine". Yosh Suzuki and JSEs release said something about a substance that James had a script for. I...
If I recall the WADA Press Release said "amphetamine". Yosh Suzuki and JSEs release said something about a substance that James had a script for. I don't recall any official release saying ti was Adderall? Am I wrong?
Yes, my apologies. The banned substance was an amphetamine.
8/3/2014 12:05pm
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall. When was...
When did James test positive for a ped? Here's a clue: He didn't, he tested positive for a banned substance and it was adderall.

When was a suspicious comment made about iv's? Here's a clue: It wasn't, his nurse made a comment about administering iv's to James.

You see what you want to see and when that doesn't work, you fill in the blanks with your own made up scenarios.
g0rd057 wrote:
Nurse claiming to administer IV to James should not be taken as factual evidence, but James' camp claiming his failed ped test was due to adderall...
Nurse claiming to administer IV to James should not be taken as factual evidence, but James' camp claiming his failed ped test was due to adderall you take that as a fact?
Where did I say that James' nurse "...claiming to administer IV to James should not be taken as factual evidence"?
8/3/2014 12:12pm
TripleFive wrote:
I didn't proclaim Adderall as a PED, the Chairman of WADA's Banned Substances Committee [url=http://seattletimes.com/html/seahawks/2019776708_adderall28.html]did[/url]. If you can find a source that says that Adderall is...
I didn't proclaim Adderall as a PED, the Chairman of WADA's Banned Substances Committee did.

If you can find a source that says that Adderall is not a PED could you please show me?

Is it just a coincidence that the day Stewart's IV nurse is prevented from entering the pits James fails to start the second moto because he was dizzy?
OK, let's frame the question differently. The issue at stake here is whether or not James was taking, what is assumed to be adderall, as a ped? There's no clear evidence that that's the case and used as a therapeutic drug for a condition, it would not be effective as a ped. You've assumed guilt before having all the facts before you just as you've assumed that Stewart was using iv's in between motos and that's why he dropped out of the second moto at Milleville.

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