Dead engine start with a 450

mx836
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mx836
Edited Date/Time 6/24/2014 7:12pm
I'm a moto guy who does a harescramble maybe once a year with my Dad who only races harescrambles now that he is creeping up on 60. Do any of you harescramble guys that ride 450s do dead engine starts with your bike in gear? If so, do you have any tips or tricks on how to get your bike to start while in gear? I turned my clutch adjuster out so there was barely any slack in the cable and pulled the lever all the way to the bars. I knew this might not work, but figured it was worth a shot. It worked a few times while doing practice runs.

Naturally, I kicked and kicked while everyone left me behind at the drop of the flag. The worst part is that AA and A class take off together so I'm always stuck behind the A class guys in the woods while the front couple AA riders get away before I even have a chance to see them. I know a Rekluse may help, but I don't run an oversize tank or hand guards since it's not really my thing, so I'm not interested in going that route($$).
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RonSkj
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RonSkj 6/23/2014 4:55pm
6/23/2014 4:55pm
And the guys with the buttons..... Cheaters!
hartebreak
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hartebreak 6/23/2014 4:56pm
6/23/2014 4:56pm
If they don't make you get off the bike and straddle the rear fender, here is what I used to do. While running your bike before shutdown, have it in gear (2nd for me). Pull clutch in and then kill the bike with the clutch still in. Keep holding clutch and rock bike back and forth to make sure the clutch plates are nice and free. Keep the clutch in and don't release it until you start the bike and are off and going. Worked for me.
motomike137
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motomike137 6/23/2014 5:22pm
6/23/2014 5:22pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 5:26pm
hartebreak wrote:
If they don't make you get off the bike and straddle the rear fender, here is what I used to do. While running your bike before...
If they don't make you get off the bike and straddle the rear fender, here is what I used to do. While running your bike before shutdown, have it in gear (2nd for me). Pull clutch in and then kill the bike with the clutch still in. Keep holding clutch and rock bike back and forth to make sure the clutch plates are nice and free. Keep the clutch in and don't release it until you start the bike and are off and going. Worked for me.
Used to do this with my CR500 back in the day at the Wednesday night club at the now defunct Iron Mustangs track in Brighton MI. Worked awesome and I pulled many hole shots. The funnest part was when the Swinkster would sail by me about a half lap in with his 125 at full song and leave me feeling like i just dropped anchor...lol.
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dcg141 6/23/2014 5:26pm
6/23/2014 5:26pm Edited Date/Time 6/23/2014 5:26pm
Now you know why 2 strokes and KTM's are so popular in off -road racing. Dead starting a 450 is not much fun. In fact racing a 450 MX bike in a Hare Scramble is not that much fun. But if you must its most likely going to be quicker to start in neutral than in gear. If you can get the bike to fire off consistently in neutral on the first kick then for sure its quicker. The key is remain calm on the line and remember you have 2 hours so getting the holeshot is not the same as a MX holeshot.

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mxpappy711
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mxpappy711 6/23/2014 5:26pm
6/23/2014 5:26pm
If your technique is working when practiced it will probably work when you race next time.You just had a bad streak maybe. A Rekluse might help by allowing more slipage not sure (you would like it for other reasons tho). Good job chasing the AA class, those guys are badass. A class too as you know I am sure.
mx836
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mx836 6/23/2014 5:33pm
6/23/2014 5:33pm
I actually got 3rd in AA yesterday and I feel I could have gotten second if I would have started up front and had a clear trail. IMO, the start does matter when you are going pretty hard for the full 2 hours. I don't feel the series is stacked around here, but there are a few pretty quick guys that only do harescrambles. The course was short so there were a ton of lappers making it hard to gain time. If I was really serious, I'd be more concerned about wasting time stopping for gas. Just figured I'd see if anyone has some pointers. I'll give what hartebreak said a try next time I race one.
mx836
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mx836 6/23/2014 5:39pm
6/23/2014 5:39pm
I've also been told that putting it in gear and snubbing out the engine instead of using the kill switch helps. Anybody ever try or have luck with that?

dcg141, you are correct. Pretty much everyone runs a 250 2 stroke around here. I'm a pretty big guy so I get along with the 450 ok in the woods.
Brapp
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Brapp 6/23/2014 7:19pm
6/23/2014 7:19pm
I have the button- and Rekluse- on my KTM 450
mx836
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mx836 6/23/2014 9:51pm
6/23/2014 9:51pm
Brapp wrote:
I have the button- and Rekluse- on my KTM 450
Let me guess, you also race harescrambles? Laughing
Xeno
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Xeno 6/23/2014 10:07pm
6/23/2014 10:07pm
If you are racing a fuel-injected bike, you need to make sure the fuel pump remains pressurized until you start the race.

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Frogman 6/23/2014 10:08pm
6/23/2014 10:08pm
Never understood the point of a dead engine start.
mx836
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mx836 6/23/2014 10:09pm
6/23/2014 10:09pm
How do you go about that? It's usually about a minute before that they make you shut your bike off. I would think it should still be good to go. I was questioning that to myself also.
Xeno
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Xeno 6/23/2014 10:12pm
6/23/2014 10:12pm
When you practice the dead-engine starts, kill the engine and wait like five minutes. Kick it in neutral and see if it fires on one kick.
markit
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markit 6/24/2014 5:04am
6/24/2014 5:04am
i havent raced a 450 sence 03 but as above hold the clutch in and clear the c plates keep it in for all your practice starts till your row leaves(the whole time even inbetween) when your class comes up make sure your on TDC, I had the button and used it along with the kick. The button will actually cost you time on the start above the B level,IMO I usually just did the practice starts from the 3ed row in front of me because it can get tireing holding the clutch in for a long time.
KMC440
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KMC440 6/24/2014 6:01am
6/24/2014 6:01am
My dilapidated pig does just fine starting in gear, seems to me you need to put the big boy pants on next time. Laughing

Where was it? Don't say Valders either that course is a blast and I'd be pissed if I missed it.
Congrats on the good finish!
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 6/24/2014 7:04am
6/24/2014 7:04am
Start in neutral and then kick the shifter with your heel once you get it started.
Anthony Siracuse 6/24/2014 7:09am
6/24/2014 7:09am Edited Date/Time 6/24/2014 7:10am
I have an article in dirt rider with destry Abbott but since I'm on my phone I can't embed photos. I'll send you the article if you send me your number.

But in my local gp I got the holes hot on a dead engine start but I was on a 125.
DDub8
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DDub8 6/24/2014 7:18am
6/24/2014 7:18am
I'm still on a carbureted bike (2008 CRF450) with a Rekluse so my process might not work for you. The key is to practice, figure out what works consistently, and go with it.

I make sure the engine is warm and up to operating temperature. Put it in 2nd gear, rev it up and kill it with my kill switch holding the clutch in the whole time. Rock it back and forth to make sure everything is loose. Get it to TDC and get the kickstarter at the highest point. When the flag drops, I kick it as hard as I can but don't let the clutch out until I know it's started. I have a kickstand on my bike and will use it to get leverage so use starting blocks if they'll allow it. This works about 80% of the time. The other 20%... I'm hoping for a grass track section before the woods where I can pass some people.

Of course, if I know it's a track where getting a good start can potentially win a race for me, I take my old RM250. It starts 100% of the time and I'm almost guaranteed to be in the top 3.

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Brapp
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Brapp 6/24/2014 7:23am
6/24/2014 7:23am
Brapp wrote:
I have the button- and Rekluse- on my KTM 450
mx836 wrote:
Let me guess, you also race harescrambles? Laughing
You are correct sir!
Brapp
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Brapp 6/24/2014 7:26am
6/24/2014 7:26am
Frogman wrote:
Never understood the point of a dead engine start.
I am with you. In our HS series, we are dead engine start as well as that stupid run to your bike then go. Hate it!
IWreckALot
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IWreckALot 6/24/2014 7:38am
6/24/2014 7:38am
Frogman wrote:
Never understood the point of a dead engine start.
Brapp wrote:
I am with you. In our HS series, we are dead engine start as well as that stupid run to your bike then go. Hate it!
Our series does a live engine flagged start. I like that. I used to get very worked up an hour before the race and now I look forward to it.

I think the point is to reduce first corner pile-ups and starts aren't as critical in harescrambles as it is in MX. Although depending on the course, it does make life a lot easier.
mx836
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mx836 6/24/2014 4:46pm
6/24/2014 4:46pm
KMC440 wrote:
My dilapidated pig does just fine starting in gear, seems to me you need to put the big boy pants on next time. :laugh: Where was...
My dilapidated pig does just fine starting in gear, seems to me you need to put the big boy pants on next time. Laughing

Where was it? Don't say Valders either that course is a blast and I'd be pissed if I missed it.
Congrats on the good finish!
Kevin, it was at Navarino ski hill. Somewhat sandy. Course was really good, but short which made lappers a pain. I'm told the one coming up July 20th in Cecil is good and that moto guys would enjoy it. I might hit that one.

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll see if I can figure something out.
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quicken 6/24/2014 5:29pm
6/24/2014 5:29pm
mx836 wrote:
I've also been told that putting it in gear and snubbing out the engine instead of using the kill switch helps. Anybody ever try or have...
I've also been told that putting it in gear and snubbing out the engine instead of using the kill switch helps. Anybody ever try or have luck with that?

dcg141, you are correct. Pretty much everyone runs a 250 2 stroke around here. I'm a pretty big guy so I get along with the 450 ok in the woods.
Rick Anschutz once told me to snub out the engine before the start, like described above. To my amazement, it works every time....one kick, second gear starts.

I race a YZ250 and figured it was more of a two stroke thing, but is worth experimenting with on your 450
scott_nz 6/24/2014 5:42pm
6/24/2014 5:42pm
mx836 wrote:
I'm a moto guy who does a harescramble maybe once a year with my Dad who only races harescrambles now that he is creeping up on...
I'm a moto guy who does a harescramble maybe once a year with my Dad who only races harescrambles now that he is creeping up on 60. Do any of you harescramble guys that ride 450s do dead engine starts with your bike in gear? If so, do you have any tips or tricks on how to get your bike to start while in gear? I turned my clutch adjuster out so there was barely any slack in the cable and pulled the lever all the way to the bars. I knew this might not work, but figured it was worth a shot. It worked a few times while doing practice runs.

Naturally, I kicked and kicked while everyone left me behind at the drop of the flag. The worst part is that AA and A class take off together so I'm always stuck behind the A class guys in the woods while the front couple AA riders get away before I even have a chance to see them. I know a Rekluse may help, but I don't run an oversize tank or hand guards since it's not really my thing, so I'm not interested in going that route($$).
i always start 450 out of gear and jam it into gear, had too many times where it wont fire, even after 10 practice kicks, we sometimes have to run about 10 plus meters to our bikes as well, meaning you can't hold the clutch in the whole time,

I used to be able to start small 2 strokes in gear (125's and 200's) but even 250 2 t's were to unreliable at starting in gear,
Wolf of Motocross 6/24/2014 5:51pm
6/24/2014 5:51pm
IWreckALot wrote:
Our series does a live engine flagged start. I like that. I used to get very worked up an hour before the race and now I...
Our series does a live engine flagged start. I like that. I used to get very worked up an hour before the race and now I look forward to it.

I think the point is to reduce first corner pile-ups and starts aren't as critical in harescrambles as it is in MX. Although depending on the course, it does make life a lot easier.
If a person is in favor of flagged starts, that said person lacks testosterone.
resetjet
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resetjet 6/24/2014 6:39pm
6/24/2014 6:39pm
The point of a dead engine start, and especially Lemans(run to bike), is to space people out. A lot of HS I do you race across a field right into single track. It is usually a monkey screw, but without it, it would be down right dangerous.

Getting a good start is very important. Forget the 2 hour thing. Really it is the same as mx and sometimes worse, if you get behind some slow guys in single track, you can lose tons of time.
mx836
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mx836 6/24/2014 7:12pm
6/24/2014 7:12pm
mx836 wrote:
I've also been told that putting it in gear and snubbing out the engine instead of using the kill switch helps. Anybody ever try or have...
I've also been told that putting it in gear and snubbing out the engine instead of using the kill switch helps. Anybody ever try or have luck with that?

dcg141, you are correct. Pretty much everyone runs a 250 2 stroke around here. I'm a pretty big guy so I get along with the 450 ok in the woods.
quicken wrote:
Rick Anschutz once told me to snub out the engine before the start, like described above. To my amazement, it works every time....one kick, second gear...
Rick Anschutz once told me to snub out the engine before the start, like described above. To my amazement, it works every time....one kick, second gear starts.

I race a YZ250 and figured it was more of a two stroke thing, but is worth experimenting with on your 450
Rick is the one who told me that also. Laughing

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