We need a $4k 125!

Toste
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Toste 6/30/2013 8:03am
6/30/2013 8:03am
Shawn142 wrote:
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the...
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the infrastructure to support it? It's not like cheap dirt bikes aren't out there, anyone wanting one only needs around $2,000.

What is needed more than anything is a push at the local level to get people with these bikes to the races. They need their own classes, series, something to make guys who buy these bikes show up and spend money. I would only buy a 125 to race a vintage series.. make me take it to a normal race by giving me a class where I'm not at a monstrous disadvantage.
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
newmann
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newmann 6/30/2013 8:32am
6/30/2013 8:32am Edited Date/Time 6/30/2013 8:33am
Shawn142 wrote:
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the...
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the infrastructure to support it? It's not like cheap dirt bikes aren't out there, anyone wanting one only needs around $2,000.

What is needed more than anything is a push at the local level to get people with these bikes to the races. They need their own classes, series, something to make guys who buy these bikes show up and spend money. I would only buy a 125 to race a vintage series.. make me take it to a normal race by giving me a class where I'm not at a monstrous disadvantage.
Toste wrote:
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
Dead on? To who? I know a shit ton of people who can't change the oil in their car and you guys expect them to rebuild a dirt bike so they can go riding? Like CamP said...some of you just don't get it.
BAMX
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BAMX 6/30/2013 8:55am
6/30/2013 8:55am
GuyB wrote:
How many of you remember when Chinese pit bikes hit the market? Where are those bikes now?
They are right next to all of the YUGO cars in the landfill. Does anyone really want to ride on a modern MX track on some POS bike? Tracks have changed a lot since the bikes got better. Like you said before, if there was a market for them, it would have already happened. I personally have a 125 that I bought for $400 and had it up and going for less than a grand. The problem is that the average Joe can't get out of his own way on a 125.
Toste
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Toste 6/30/2013 9:10am
6/30/2013 9:10am
newmann wrote:
Dead on? To who? I know a shit ton of people who can't change the oil in their car and you guys expect them to rebuild...
Dead on? To who? I know a shit ton of people who can't change the oil in their car and you guys expect them to rebuild a dirt bike so they can go riding? Like CamP said...some of you just don't get it.
Someone that mechanically disinclined is going to be relying on outside help no matter what they're riding.

I see bikes on craigslist that meet or exceed the specs of the bike in the original post all the time...for well under $4500. I've seen late model 125s in good running condition for as low as $1500. Even with paying someone else to do the work of "rebuilding" (essentials, not necessarily "blinging" like the rebuilds that get posted here), a buyer would be coming out way ahead of the game.

I do get what you are saying. I personally think $9K is ridiculous for a dirt bike too, but I also know that the typical MXer isn't very honest about his true "needs" as a rider. Maybe the demand for cheap bikes just isn't what you and CamP think it is?

The Shop

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GuyB
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GuyB 6/30/2013 9:22am
6/30/2013 9:22am
Toste wrote:
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
Remember the 100cc class? 175cc?
Toste
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Toste 6/30/2013 9:37am
6/30/2013 9:37am
GuyB wrote:
Remember the 100cc class? 175cc?
I do, but that's also back when there was only Jr. and Expert, and the concept of a +25 class was only a twinkle in some moron's eye.

There have been many threads here where people have said their reason for hanging it up or switching to "practice pro" only is because of the long days and the scant amount of track time. The out of control class structure is usually the culprit behind it.
TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 6/30/2013 9:46am
6/30/2013 9:46am
Toste wrote:
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
GuyB wrote:
Remember the 100cc class? 175cc?
Yup!

The funniest part of all is that all the hardware is out there. Sad; but, true.
And, another thing...
We've cornered ourselves w/ certain hardware/technology! I was thinking of "Which" Fork or Shock or even...Swing-Arm...
There's some Amazing parts available that have NO R&D cost; and, these parts are Better than a lot of the "Bleeding-Edge" stuff that we/you think is so damn cool.

Example: Shock.

Some of the best shocks w/ their Hi & Low speed circuits & some really "nice" coatings & Ti Springs were developed more than a few years ago...&, in most cases, are BETTER than most of the current shocks you have. Off-the-Shelf...ready to go...

Forks? I once rode a bike w/ those Showa-Conventionals on the front of the DRZ400; but, they were on an MX bike & they were AMAZING!

Swing-Arm: anyone ever check-out the back of a KLR or KLX? Nice construction/Ultra-Low-Cost. Then, go check out the frame on the KLX 250...

I'm jus' pondering...
bent valves
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bent valves 6/30/2013 9:47am
6/30/2013 9:47am
Shawn142 wrote:
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the...
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the infrastructure to support it? It's not like cheap dirt bikes aren't out there, anyone wanting one only needs around $2,000.

What is needed more than anything is a push at the local level to get people with these bikes to the races. They need their own classes, series, something to make guys who buy these bikes show up and spend money. I would only buy a 125 to race a vintage series.. make me take it to a normal race by giving me a class where I'm not at a monstrous disadvantage.
Toste wrote:
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
newmann wrote:
Dead on? To who? I know a shit ton of people who can't change the oil in their car and you guys expect them to rebuild...
Dead on? To who? I know a shit ton of people who can't change the oil in their car and you guys expect them to rebuild a dirt bike so they can go riding? Like CamP said...some of you just don't get it.
I don't buy the "build a class" and they will come...there is a two stroke race series here in CA every year...REM had a two stroke class and it didn't go anywhere...and they are not outlawed at any race...it comes down to fixing them up

TWMX had a great video recently asking riders about their mechanical prowess and to my surprise most can just do filters...the new bikes are so good that kids no longer need to work on them to keep them going...when the motor grenades just buy another bike or exit the sport...

Toste touched on the ego/vanity thing and he was dead on. I've seen it in modern and vintage...guys just have to have the best shit and for other guys like me showing up on a clapped out 125..I don't fit in. So IMO, guys like Newman who show up in a diesel hauler with three bikes and 5 show queens is not helping the movement because typically these guys have egos and are aholes. Not saying newman is one, but I've encountered too fucking many.

So until we fix this idea you need the best shit, the cleanest bike, the biggest hauler, the economy 125 is dead. Sure there are many clubs, racing clubs, but there needs to be some type of club formed to help younger guys build these bikes, give advice on engine building, help pull cases apart, loan tools or shop time, etc. All you have is an industry trying to sell parts and promote races. With the economy bikes there is a missing link.

So I'm back to RM127's idea and I still think it could work but you need to form some sort of club and ban togethor...build togethor...race/ride togethor...share tools and work space...and most importantly inspirational support of why you are doing what you are doing because it's tough to show up at the track with a older 125 and get ridiculed...and it's tough to finish rebuild projects...support group that loves this stuff and through their love inspire others...
CamP
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CamP 6/30/2013 4:37pm
6/30/2013 4:37pm
TeamGreen wrote:
You're gonna need to sit down. OK, are you sitting...? Lets start with Honda. Guess what bike they built for Newbie Dad? The CRF250L. Hey, I'm...
You're gonna need to sit down.

OK, are you sitting...?

Lets start with Honda. Guess what bike they built for Newbie Dad?

The CRF250L.

Hey, I'm just telling you what I've been told; but, there it is. I like the idea of my old KDX motor in the Thailand chassis; but, I'm a lone voice on that when I bring it up with the OEMs.
The OEM's have gone from selling 1 million dirt units a year to 75k. Just because they can produce good machinery doesn't mean they have a clue about what the US market really needs.
CamP
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CamP 6/30/2013 4:45pm
6/30/2013 4:45pm
Shawn142 wrote:
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the...
Eh I don't get it.. I can pick up a used 125 and rebuild it for less than $4500. What's this going to prove without the infrastructure to support it? It's not like cheap dirt bikes aren't out there, anyone wanting one only needs around $2,000.

What is needed more than anything is a push at the local level to get people with these bikes to the races. They need their own classes, series, something to make guys who buy these bikes show up and spend money. I would only buy a 125 to race a vintage series.. make me take it to a normal race by giving me a class where I'm not at a monstrous disadvantage.
Toste wrote:
^^ First paragraph is dead-on.

I don't know about adding more classes, though. Could make a bad situation (people quitting over long days/short motos) worse.
Most newbies don't want, nor have the mechanical ability, to buy and resuscitate a used roach.
Toste
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Toste 6/30/2013 5:12pm
6/30/2013 5:12pm
CamP wrote:
The OEM's have gone from selling 1 million dirt units a year to 75k. Just because they can produce good machinery doesn't mean they have a...
The OEM's have gone from selling 1 million dirt units a year to 75k. Just because they can produce good machinery doesn't mean they have a clue about what the US market really needs.
Most of the reasons for that decline are beyond the control of the OEMs.
friday10
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friday10 6/30/2013 5:32pm
6/30/2013 5:32pm
CamP wrote:
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what...
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what this sport needs for a shot in the arm.
The Japanese aren't innovators. Really????? If they weren't we would still be riding BSA's and Triumphs.
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BIGHEAD1 6/30/2013 5:50pm
6/30/2013 5:50pm
While you morons are at it.. Why not handle the economy and inflation. Because the truth of the matter $4500 in the mid 90's has the same buying power as $6500 today. Which is the real problem... not "four stroke boogie men"..or "evil manufacturers" .

If Honda came out with the 2013 CRF450 in 1998 to compete with the YZ400f the cost would be $6036 vs the $5799 of the Yamaha. That means the total price increase of all this technology is about $237. Incredible. A 2013 YZ250 would cost about $5100 in 1998. Which means the bike is CHEAPER now than it used to be..except inflation has made it harder to buy.

Keep it coming.. the OEM's would laugh you guys out of the room.
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BAMX 6/30/2013 5:56pm
6/30/2013 5:56pm
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
While you morons are at it.. Why not handle the economy and inflation. Because the truth of the matter $4500 in the mid 90's has the...
While you morons are at it.. Why not handle the economy and inflation. Because the truth of the matter $4500 in the mid 90's has the same buying power as $6500 today. Which is the real problem... not "four stroke boogie men"..or "evil manufacturers" .

If Honda came out with the 2013 CRF450 in 1998 to compete with the YZ400f the cost would be $6036 vs the $5799 of the Yamaha. That means the total price increase of all this technology is about $237. Incredible. A 2013 YZ250 would cost about $5100 in 1998. Which means the bike is CHEAPER now than it used to be..except inflation has made it harder to buy.

Keep it coming.. the OEM's would laugh you guys out of the room.
The problem is that wages have not risen to meet the inflation that you are claiming. If the OEM's were as smart as you claim, they would sell bikes at prices that their customers could afford.
CamP
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CamP 6/30/2013 7:28pm
6/30/2013 7:28pm Edited Date/Time 6/30/2013 7:37pm
CamP wrote:
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what...
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what this sport needs for a shot in the arm.
friday10 wrote:
The Japanese aren't innovators. Really????? If they weren't we would still be riding BSA's and Triumphs.
No, they aren't innovators, they are developers. What the Japanese have traditionally been good at is taking others' concepts, and perfecting them for mass production.

The japanese didn't invent 2-strokes, 4-strokes, cartridge forks, powervalves, progressive single shock rear suspension, long travel, aluminum frames, or color TV, but they did the tedious development to make them work well in mass production.

Very few "big" ideas come from Japan.
friday10
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friday10 6/30/2013 8:02pm
6/30/2013 8:02pm
CamP wrote:
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what...
The Japanese are great manufacturers, but they aren't innovators. A new, low cost, entry level mx bike takes some forward thinking. I think it's exactly what this sport needs for a shot in the arm.
friday10 wrote:
The Japanese aren't innovators. Really????? If they weren't we would still be riding BSA's and Triumphs.
CamP wrote:
No, they aren't innovators, they are developers. What the Japanese have traditionally been good at is taking others' concepts, and perfecting them for mass production. The...
No, they aren't innovators, they are developers. What the Japanese have traditionally been good at is taking others' concepts, and perfecting them for mass production.

The japanese didn't invent 2-strokes, 4-strokes, cartridge forks, powervalves, progressive single shock rear suspension, long travel, aluminum frames, or color TV, but they did the tedious development to make them work well in mass production.

Very few "big" ideas come from Japan.
Hmm....you got me there Cam. Smile
queen of spodes 6/30/2013 8:56pm
6/30/2013 8:56pm
GuyB wrote:
How many of you remember when Chinese pit bikes hit the market? Where are those bikes now?
That's just it.. I wouldn't trust a Chinese motorcycle on the street much less one that is designed with what passes for long-travel suspension.

It's a nice idea what is being discussed, but don't think for a minute that the quality coming from the typical cheap Chinese manufacturers will be anything other than horrendous. The Chinese are competitive in price alone. Ask them to do it right and their prices will strangely begin to creep up into Big 5 territory.
queen of spodes 6/30/2013 9:06pm
6/30/2013 9:06pm
mcopsey wrote:
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly? I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes...
Does Yamaha not offer a TTR230 and TTR125 that would fit the bill for a true beginner perfectly?


I really don't get it, perfect beginner bikes that are easy to ride and cheap but they aren't in the wheelhouse. Do they have to be two strokes to make you guys happy?
Did you watch any of the WMX this weekend? Those were lightweight 250cc four strokes.. state of the art.. and the girls had trouble picking them up off the ground. Many of those girls ride faster and harder than the average hobby rider ever will.

The thing with the 2 stroke is that they are usually light weight, and they are simple to work on and repair. Add cams, valves, and e-starts and things get expensive and complicated fast.

Also, the suspension on the TTRs is wimpy. I think the OP wants a decent frame and suspension that could be raced on or at least improved quite a bit. The 87 CR frame would be great for something like this.. hell go back a year and keep the rear drum.

Anyway - none of this will happen anytime soon, unless it comes from China.. and China is not good at innovating and creating new products. They copy what's on the market now, and they are replicating 4-strokes. Doubt we'll see a decent two stroke and even if we did.. would anyone here really want to ride the least bit fast?

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queen of spodes 6/30/2013 9:09pm
6/30/2013 9:09pm
bent valves wrote:
Manufacturers give no incentive to buy a new bike. The new motocross bikes in CA are all red sticker so they can't be trail ridden year...
Manufacturers give no incentive to buy a new bike. The new motocross bikes in CA are all red sticker so they can't be trail ridden year around which is BS. I thought the whole point of going to four strokes was to be more "green". I guess not. Also, I've gone to the shop enough to know you pay sticker price every time. When was the last time you heard of a company giving discounts or price breaks? Usually, it's the dealer making the cuts not the manufacturers. Recently, Husky was giving some good deals but I also heard Husky was going out of business. Sometimes the manufactures give monies depending on how you place in a series but that a niche few full time racers not the general population.

I've done the vintage thing too but in CA it's dead because the same exact riders show up on the same bikes at the same tracks and it's pretty darn boring after a few times. I don't think it's so much to do with bikes and parts but more the entire process of restoring them. Every bike needs to rebuilt. Some guys just don't have the mechanical abilities, time, tools or shop.If they sent it out to be restored they usually get price gouged and realize they should have just bought a new bike to begin with. And after spending all that time rebuilding the bike they rather it sit in the garage and collect dust than destroy it.
Those new four-stroke MX bikes are just as bad as the two strokes are/were. They just "look" cleaner due to the idea of not mixing oil with the gas. It's all marketing.. follow the money.
Frodad78
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Frodad78 7/1/2013 7:56am
7/1/2013 7:56am
Toste wrote:
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think...
If the demand for racing low tech, low priced bikes is as high as you're saying, then EVO racing would be huge...but it isn't. I think people sometimes underestimate the level of ego/vanity that exists in this sport.

Besides that, of all the things that are driving people away from MX, I would say that new bike costs are pretty far down the list.
CamP wrote:
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for...
In north Texas, our vintage club gets bigger turnouts than typical local races. The thing that keeps it from growing more is that parts availability for 25+ year old bikes can be a problem. On top of that, there isn't an endless supply of 25+ year old race bikes, so your comparison really doesn't make sense.

If you don't understand that new bike costs affect new bike sales, and ultimately local race entry numbers, I can't really help you with an economics lesson. I talk to someone almost every day that says they would like a new bike, but at $8-9k, they are out. Personally, after 30 years of buying a new bike almost every year, I bought my last new bike when I bought a new 08 CRF450. I got it for $4500otd while Honda was blowing out their overstock. At $8k+, I'm not buying a new bike. I would like a new one, but that's stupid money for a dirt bike.
Hey Camp what vintage club are you affiliated with? I was hoping to get involved in the upcoming TVRC Winter series. GP5 class sounds like a blast.
CamP
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CamP 7/1/2013 8:06am
7/1/2013 8:06am
Frodad78 wrote:
Hey Camp what vintage club are you affiliated with? I was hoping to get involved in the upcoming TVRC Winter series. GP5 class sounds like a...
Hey Camp what vintage club are you affiliated with? I was hoping to get involved in the upcoming TVRC Winter series. GP5 class sounds like a blast.
The TVRC is a great club. It's the oldest vintage club in the US and, through excellent management, membership has grown steadily since 1988. The attendance for this past spring series set new records for the club.
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HenryA 7/1/2013 8:11am
7/1/2013 8:11am
racerx217 wrote:
you can buy a new husky 125 for about that with the rebates they are running
And the answer was on the first page
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wow123 7/1/2013 8:35am
7/1/2013 8:35am
CamP wrote:
No, they aren't innovators, they are developers. What the Japanese have traditionally been good at is taking others' concepts, and perfecting them for mass production. The...
No, they aren't innovators, they are developers. What the Japanese have traditionally been good at is taking others' concepts, and perfecting them for mass production.

The japanese didn't invent 2-strokes, 4-strokes, cartridge forks, powervalves, progressive single shock rear suspension, long travel, aluminum frames, or color TV, but they did the tedious development to make them work well in mass production.

Very few "big" ideas come from Japan.
Bukakee is one I know of.

back on topic
Japan is now the oldest society in the world so that reflects in their manufacturing, back in the 70's they were a young country on the rise.

Unfortunately Korea hasn't taken up motorcycle manu in any big way and most of the other asian nations on the rise dont have the skill base to make something of there own,
but do have japanese dominated domestic manufactured products and markets.
burn1986
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burn1986 7/1/2013 8:35am
7/1/2013 8:35am
CamP wrote:
The OEM's have gone from selling 1 million dirt units a year to 75k. Just because they can produce good machinery doesn't mean they have a...
The OEM's have gone from selling 1 million dirt units a year to 75k. Just because they can produce good machinery doesn't mean they have a clue about what the US market really needs.
We know this and Japan sees their sales sheets. But Japan doesn't care about sales figures. They only care about producing what they want to produce. In fact, Japan (Honda) has basically said they will discontinue dirt bikes before they would sale or produce another 2-stroke. As much as I wish they would, they won't ever produce, update, or put any investment toward 2-strokes ever again. And the AMA, these forum admins, and the promoters are Japan's crusaders in that fight.
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Frodad78 7/1/2013 8:40am
7/1/2013 8:40am
Frodad78 wrote:
Hey Camp what vintage club are you affiliated with? I was hoping to get involved in the upcoming TVRC Winter series. GP5 class sounds like a...
Hey Camp what vintage club are you affiliated with? I was hoping to get involved in the upcoming TVRC Winter series. GP5 class sounds like a blast.
CamP wrote:
The TVRC is a great club. It's the oldest vintage club in the US and, through excellent management, membership has grown steadily since 1988. The attendance...
The TVRC is a great club. It's the oldest vintage club in the US and, through excellent management, membership has grown steadily since 1988. The attendance for this past spring series set new records for the club.
Good to hear, can't wait to get my 125 on the line and get involved.
Shawn142
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Shawn142 7/1/2013 9:10am
7/1/2013 9:10am Edited Date/Time 7/1/2013 9:17am
Exactly what demographic do you think you're going to pull here? Everyone I've met in the nearly 30 years I've ridden has had some marginal mechanical ability. Are you looking to draw in soccer mom's? Some teenager can't afford a new 450 so he buy this $4,000 125. What does he do with it now that it needs a new tire or the air filter cleaned? He's going to take it to the dealership for all that?

$2000 will buy me a bike that runs. It won't be in top shape, but it'll do what I want and has lasted a long time already because it's made of quality parts. Instead you're wanting me to spend double that on a bike build from the cheapest components you can source to keep cost down.
burn1986
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burn1986 7/1/2013 9:24am
7/1/2013 9:24am Edited Date/Time 7/1/2013 9:26am
C'mon, we know this is all theoretical. Why take it so seriously? We all know its not going to happen, so what? The point made is that a $4000 125 that was sturdy and reliable would be a huge success in the US, regardless of target audience, sales schematics, Japan, used bikes, etc.
CamP
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CamP 7/1/2013 9:45am
7/1/2013 9:45am Edited Date/Time 7/1/2013 9:59am
Shawn142 wrote:
Exactly what demographic do you think you're going to pull here? Everyone I've met in the nearly 30 years I've ridden has had some marginal mechanical...
Exactly what demographic do you think you're going to pull here? Everyone I've met in the nearly 30 years I've ridden has had some marginal mechanical ability. Are you looking to draw in soccer mom's? Some teenager can't afford a new 450 so he buy this $4,000 125. What does he do with it now that it needs a new tire or the air filter cleaned? He's going to take it to the dealership for all that?

$2000 will buy me a bike that runs. It won't be in top shape, but it'll do what I want and has lasted a long time already because it's made of quality parts. Instead you're wanting me to spend double that on a bike build from the cheapest components you can source to keep cost down.
The pure entry level mx demographic that wants a "NEW" full size bike, but doesn't have $6500 to buy a new 125, nor the mechanical abilities and/or time to resurrect a used POS. The 16 year old kid that has ridden junky Chinese pit bikes around the neighborhood and wants to step up to riding mx now that has $4k in his pocket after a summer job, or the kid with a beat up CRF100 who has a dad that's willing to buy him a new $4000 mx bike, but not a time bomb used 250F, or a new $6500 125. A new "keep it simple stupid" bike that has all the performance he needs for an entry level rider to negotiate a real mx track. A bike that, with limited knowledge or tools, can have a top end service done by a complete neophyte. A new air cooled 200cc 2T bike in a '95ish era style chassis could be such a bike. 30hp in a sub-200lb chassis is realistic and it wouldn't even need a powervalve to get there.

If you've spent 30 years at the track, it may not be the bike for you, and you may have difficulty seeing the rationale behind this concept. The challenge is to try to step outside your box, and see things from the perspective of someone that doesn't really have a clue about the sport yet, but wants to be a part of it.

We are talking bottom up growth of the sport, because top down growth isn't working all that well.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 7/1/2013 10:23am
7/1/2013 10:23am
While we're placing orders, I would like a 350cc 4stroke that weighs less than 220 pounds with frame geometry for a 6'4" person and suspension sprung and valved for a 215 lb vet B rider. I would like this bike to be produced by one of the big 5, and I would like to pay $3,500. Please and thanks.
mcopsey
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mcopsey 7/1/2013 11:52am
7/1/2013 11:52am
GrapeApe wrote:
While we're placing orders, I would like a 350cc 4stroke that weighs less than 220 pounds with frame geometry for a 6'4" person and suspension sprung...
While we're placing orders, I would like a 350cc 4stroke that weighs less than 220 pounds with frame geometry for a 6'4" person and suspension sprung and valved for a 215 lb vet B rider. I would like this bike to be produced by one of the big 5, and I would like to pay $3,500. Please and thanks.
I want the exact same bike also. We've sold two now, where are the manufacturers?

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