Is it completely safe to PowderCoat a steel frame?

Erick
Profile picture for user Erick
Posts
181
Joined
1/20/2010
Location
NL
Erick 3/1/2013 3:53pm
3/1/2013 3:53pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2013 3:54pm
Thanks for the remark Harescrambled! I didn't know that. Then it would be no problem for steel.

For aluminum it is however dangerous if the heat treatment of the alloy is critical.
TeamPropainTurbo38t 3/1/2013 5:25pm
3/1/2013 5:25pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
Annealing? Hardness? Brittleness? And some other ness's that I don't know what they mean. Is any of this effected by PowderCoating? I know up close and...
Annealing?
Hardness?
Brittleness?
And some other ness's that I don't know what they mean.
Is any of this effected by PowderCoating?

I know up close and personal that powdercoating aluminum is a horrible idea because I did it to a streetbike cast aluminum front wheel and on the very next ride it snapped and sent me over the handlebars at 90mph. (to be fair I was doing a nose wheelie at the time)

I was just about to have my 13 KTM frame powdercoated but they run these things up to 450 degrees in the ovens and I figure that is likely to alter some of the metal's properties. Can anyone educate me a bit on this topic?

Thanks.
seth505 wrote:
It is completely safe for both Steel and Alum. Assuming, the work is done by someone who knows what they are doing. The powder can cure...
It is completely safe for both Steel and Alum. Assuming, the work is done by someone who knows what they are doing. The powder can cure at 350-400 degrees F like people said which won't have negative affects.
You are wrong, don't type stuff you don't know about. Different aluminums are DEFINITELY affected by powdercoat curing. 6061 T6 is affected if cooked over 330 degrees. My 07 cr250 swingarm broke in half from powdercoating. There really is no right way to do aluminum .......some people "get lucky"......I have seen a couple frame break as well as wheels turn into pretzels the first ride back after powder coating. Steel is another story........powdercoat away.....
TeamPropainTurbo38t 3/1/2013 5:27pm
3/1/2013 5:27pm
Erick wrote:
Aluminum frames are heat treated. If you heat an aluminum frame to a temperature at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius the effects of heat treatment...
Aluminum frames are heat treated. If you heat an aluminum frame to a temperature at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius the effects of heat treatment will be reduced (the material recovers to its original, soft, stress free state) depending on the alloy. Generally 6065 and 7075 aluminum is used. Therefore strength is reduced and material is softened comprimising the whole frame. (source http://www.mlevel3.com/BCIT/heat%20treat.htm)

Steel is more capable of handling these temperatures. However some recovery mechanisms will occur at temperatures of around 400 degrees Celcius. KTM frames are generally made from 25CrMo4 steel (source: www.ktm.com).

My advice would be to ask what temperature the powder will be cured, If the temperature is at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius it wouldn't be a problem for steel. If the temperature is higher (300+) I would look elsewhere.

If you need more in depth info about material properties I can help you.
harescrambled wrote:
Erick, powder coating is typically done at 205C (400F) maximum temp. preheat to weld high CrMo materials is typically 400-600F (205-315C)
Correct to a point, BUT.....you flow the powdercoat at 420-450 degrees then "cure" at 400-420 for 20 minutes....
TeamPropainTurbo38t 3/1/2013 5:28pm
3/1/2013 5:28pm
Erick wrote:
Some info about 25CrMo4 which your KTM is made of:

http://www.saarstahl.com/fileadmin/saarstahl_extranet/images/04_produkt…

I would suggest not to go above 400 degrees Celcius for more than 0.5 hours.
Powdercoat is completely cured after no more than 25 minutes....

The Shop

See All »
seth505
Profile picture for user seth505
Posts
10183
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA US
seth505 3/1/2013 6:11pm
3/1/2013 6:11pm
Suns_PSD wrote:
Annealing? Hardness? Brittleness? And some other ness's that I don't know what they mean. Is any of this effected by PowderCoating? I know up close and...
Annealing?
Hardness?
Brittleness?
And some other ness's that I don't know what they mean.
Is any of this effected by PowderCoating?

I know up close and personal that powdercoating aluminum is a horrible idea because I did it to a streetbike cast aluminum front wheel and on the very next ride it snapped and sent me over the handlebars at 90mph. (to be fair I was doing a nose wheelie at the time)

I was just about to have my 13 KTM frame powdercoated but they run these things up to 450 degrees in the ovens and I figure that is likely to alter some of the metal's properties. Can anyone educate me a bit on this topic?

Thanks.
seth505 wrote:
It is completely safe for both Steel and Alum. Assuming, the work is done by someone who knows what they are doing. The powder can cure...
It is completely safe for both Steel and Alum. Assuming, the work is done by someone who knows what they are doing. The powder can cure at 350-400 degrees F like people said which won't have negative affects.
TeamPropainTurbo38t wrote:
You are wrong, don't type stuff you don't know about. Different aluminums are DEFINITELY affected by powdercoat curing. 6061 T6 is affected if cooked over 330...
You are wrong, don't type stuff you don't know about. Different aluminums are DEFINITELY affected by powdercoat curing. 6061 T6 is affected if cooked over 330 degrees. My 07 cr250 swingarm broke in half from powdercoating. There really is no right way to do aluminum .......some people "get lucky"......I have seen a couple frame break as well as wheels turn into pretzels the first ride back after powder coating. Steel is another story........powdercoat away.....
Maybe I shouldn't have written "completely" safe, but I did add to make sure the work is being done by someone who knows what they are doing.

6061 T6 is aged around that same temp you mention (320 or 330 ish) which is how it gets it's strength. If you heat it to that for longer and longer, yes it will lose strength at some point. So you are sure your swing arm broke in half from powder coating? Where did it break? How long was it heated and at what temp? Was it brand new before coating?

While 6061 is popular for certain components it isn't used for everything. The 20" aluminum wheels that I powder coated six years ago sit under a 5800 pound truck and have been through five winters before moving to CA. Personally, I wouldn't consider that "lucky" that they aren't pretzels.
Sprew
Profile picture for user Sprew
Posts
430
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
Sprew 3/1/2013 8:33pm
3/1/2013 8:33pm
Erick wrote:
Aluminum frames are heat treated. If you heat an aluminum frame to a temperature at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius the effects of heat treatment...
Aluminum frames are heat treated. If you heat an aluminum frame to a temperature at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius the effects of heat treatment will be reduced (the material recovers to its original, soft, stress free state) depending on the alloy. Generally 6065 and 7075 aluminum is used. Therefore strength is reduced and material is softened comprimising the whole frame. (source http://www.mlevel3.com/BCIT/heat%20treat.htm)

Steel is more capable of handling these temperatures. However some recovery mechanisms will occur at temperatures of around 400 degrees Celcius. KTM frames are generally made from 25CrMo4 steel (source: www.ktm.com).

My advice would be to ask what temperature the powder will be cured, If the temperature is at around 200 to 300 degrees Celcius it wouldn't be a problem for steel. If the temperature is higher (300+) I would look elsewhere.

If you need more in depth info about material properties I can help you.
Erick............7075.....for Frames?
Suns_PSD
Profile picture for user Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
Suns_PSD 3/1/2013 9:31pm
3/1/2013 9:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2013 9:34pm
codyc24 wrote:
If your wheel snapped like that, it was not the powdercoats fault or the powder coating process. That wheel was destined to break, I imagine from...
If your wheel snapped like that, it was not the powdercoats fault or the powder coating process. That wheel was destined to break, I imagine from coming down from wheelies a little too hard. I did powder coating for a while and never once had an issue. When I was riding street bikes I did a bunch of my friends wheels, levers, rear sets, swingarms, frames. Cause if powdercoat caused your wheel to break, explain how a powdercoated wheel on a truck does not just snap? Especially with all 4 done. Basically like everyone said, cover your holes and it will last for a long time except the area around your boots will rub off fairly quick. Did on my last dirtbike I powdercoated.


It didn't snap, it sagged more or less.



Metallugy test showed that it had been softened but even though I got completely fucked up, I declined to sue anyone for lost wages, medcal, or bike repair costs.

Don't powdercoat Aluminum kiddos.
Erick
Profile picture for user Erick
Posts
181
Joined
1/20/2010
Location
NL
Erick 3/2/2013 4:42am
3/2/2013 4:42am
Sprew wrote:
Erick............7075.....for Frames?
Source: AJ from Service Honda. He typed on this forum that Honda uses an alloy comparable to 7075 on (I believe) extrusions. This is not based on my own experience. If incorrect, my apologies.
Suns_PSD
Profile picture for user Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
Suns_PSD 3/5/2013 11:24am
3/5/2013 11:24am
In preparation for Powder Coating the frame and anticipating constant problems with the lower exhaust hanger bracket snapping off like my other 2 KTMs, a buddy of mine was kind enough to fab this additional support for the OEM exhaust hanger. He has welded my '08 exhaust bracket back on probably 10x.

It will be unnoticable once PCed. Hopefully it will hold permantantly.



IceMan446
Profile picture for user IceMan446
Posts
4676
Joined
1/10/2010
Location
Sacramento, CA US
IceMan446 3/5/2013 11:26am
3/5/2013 11:26am
Suns_PSD wrote:
I was quoted $225.

I guess I should look around a bit.
Suns...I had my frame blasted and powder coated for 125 bucks.
Suns_PSD
Profile picture for user Suns_PSD
Posts
989
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Austin, TX US
Suns_PSD 3/5/2013 11:59am
3/5/2013 11:59am
I've called everyone in town. most are over $300, a couple are a little less.

Whatever I guess.
theycallmeebryan 3/5/2013 12:40pm
3/5/2013 12:40pm
225$ is a great deal for blasting and powder coating the frame and subframe. That's what I paid in New Jersey.

Mine came out great and is holding up well! You still need to use frame guards/ boot guards to protect from rubbing though!



Pit Row

See All »

Post a reply to: Is it completely safe to PowderCoat a steel frame?