MXA: Jody’s Manifesto Of An Unrepentant Two-Stroke Aficionado

Choppy
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12/31/2012 3:44pm Edited Date/Time 12/31/2012 3:45pm
WORCSRacer wrote:
I don't think it's a conspiracy as much as they are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. I just think it's unfortunate that because...
I don't think it's a conspiracy as much as they are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. I just think it's unfortunate that because of their close association with Pro moto for access and content you won't see a critical response or opinion out of them. Jody couldn't care less.
Yeah, those other guys never give their opinion in podcasts etc... :sarcasm:
12/31/2012 5:14pm
I don't post here much, mostly just read about new stuff happening and some somewhat insider info to see where riders are going and what not. I think it is really cool there are some industry guys on here that interact with us fans. My interest in motocross was sparked when I was a youngster in the 90's, my dad was a local pro in the 80's in the DFW area. Growing up my hero was Jeremy McGrath and Travis Pastrana. When I started loving moto it was all two strokes which I think encapsulates what motocross is, however I love motocross in general most of all. I cheer just as hard for Ryan Dungey on his 450 as I did for McGrath and Pastrana on their two strokes.

But enough with the jibber jabber, this is my question. GuyB, Mattes, DC, and most every other industry guy do yall just not like two strokes?

I asked Chad Reed about them at an autograph session he said they were a thing of the past and four strokes were where it's at. I just get this vibe of negativity towards the two stroke in the industry.
Aaryn234
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South Australia, SA AU
Fantasy
12/31/2012 5:40pm
The Japanese have stated the Koreans are the ones they fear will take their place in the auto market. Their quality has gone through the roof...
The Japanese have stated the Koreans are the ones they fear will take their place in the auto market. Their quality has gone through the roof on their car lines. Bikes won't be far behind.
I rented and an Elantra 3 years ago, and I was impressed. Good solid car and drove nicely. Went like like a bat out hell too. Not that I EVER had it over the speed limit. Wink Laughing Hey, what did I care. It was a rental.
125 wrote:
the screen on your computer is from korea, your phone is probably from korea, too. It's coming. It's the 70s all over again, as far as...
the screen on your computer is from korea, your phone is probably from korea, too. It's coming. It's the 70s all over again, as far as Asia is concerned, but this time its Korea trying to gain a foothold in the U.S., using their exchange rate as their tool.


seen the hyundai genesis? rear wheel drive, 6 speed, leather, brembo brakes, turbo, 250+hp for under 25K.




Someone post the "meanwhile in Japan" photo...
That is a sweet looking car

It has been interesting to see Hyundai grow in Aus. The first car of theirs that I really remember was the Excel, they were cheap, super cheap compared to the cars in the same market for their time.

People in Aus were skeptical at first, but before long they were everywhere, cheap and proving to be reliable. Now the brand has a massive foothold in Aus, supplying cars to suit nearly every market. The Toyota Hiace once was the choice of Van for Aus MX Riders, it is quickly changing to the Hyundai iload over here.

Maybe a bike company out of Korea will be the company that steps up and follows KTM's line of thought and supplies MX bikes to suit everyone's likes, both two and four stroke, MX and Enduro/Trail.
IceMan446
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Sacramento, CA US
12/31/2012 5:44pm
I understand the frustration with the cost issue. But I look at it like this, if you want something that is a luxury then you better be willing to pay the price for that luxury. And owning a Four Stroke is like owning a BMW. It costs MORE to take care of it and it costs MORE to purchase it.

If you don't have the money to purchase it and FIX it, DONT BUY IT. Go buy a CHEAPER two stroke and be happy. But most people want what is brand new just because they saw someone else with it. Not the factories fault you don't have the funds to fix and maintain your luxury item. There are cheaper options and you do have a choice to buy what you want.

I think its stupid for folks to argue the whole let it be equal displacement. Who cares? Do you think they fastest guys would even ride a two stroke? NOPE. They get paid to ride what their team supplies them, which is supplied by factory. And lets face it, four strokes are faster and an all around better bike. Tough for some to think of but its true.

What the Pros race doesn't determine what the public buys. Buy more two strokes and you will see what that does to the manufactures. Look at KTM in recent years.

I would love to see a two stroke series but we shouldn't change everything we have now just to accommodate it.

The Shop

IceMan446
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12/31/2012 5:48pm
Oh yeah and its not DC, Matthes or the industries fault.

The biggest blame would have to be on the general public and what they have purchased. They want whats fast and easy to ride. You can call it lazy but the public will always go with what the new hip thing is. And at the current moment four strokes are the best bikes to go fast on.
SwapperMX
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12/31/2012 6:24pm
The AMA pro racing influences the buying public worldwide. To think otherwise is naive.
seth505
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12/31/2012 6:47pm
IceMan446 wrote:
Oh yeah and its not DC, Matthes or the industries fault. The biggest blame would have to be on the general public and what they have...
Oh yeah and its not DC, Matthes or the industries fault.

The biggest blame would have to be on the general public and what they have purchased. They want whats fast and easy to ride. You can call it lazy but the public will always go with what the new hip thing is. And at the current moment four strokes are the best bikes to go fast on.
^You are exactly right on that.

But your post above that about not needing equal displacement I don't agree with. Ok, say we end up with equal displacement and a Yamaha or KTM team comes along riding 2strokes...ya there is almost 0% chance they'll win right away (because no big names will ride for them) but then they develop the bike and spend much less on racing costs (compared to the 250f volatile rocketship motors) and have more and more money to play with and get good riders. Those good riders that end up on the bike could easily smoke the field.

Bottom line, racing could still be going on and amateurs could still be racing and spending a lot less to get out there and do it. It would benefit the entire industry all the way back to Japan and Austria. Not everyone is in to some taliban conspiracy shit, the current 4strokes are great bikes to go fast on but was it a good move? An actual step forward? I say no.
Pro teams spend more money, amateurs go from 80cc bikes to 250fs, etc...
mx317
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TN US
12/31/2012 7:08pm
seth505 wrote:
^You are exactly right on that. But your post above that about not needing equal displacement I don't agree with. Ok, say we end up with...
^You are exactly right on that.

But your post above that about not needing equal displacement I don't agree with. Ok, say we end up with equal displacement and a Yamaha or KTM team comes along riding 2strokes...ya there is almost 0% chance they'll win right away (because no big names will ride for them) but then they develop the bike and spend much less on racing costs (compared to the 250f volatile rocketship motors) and have more and more money to play with and get good riders. Those good riders that end up on the bike could easily smoke the field.

Bottom line, racing could still be going on and amateurs could still be racing and spending a lot less to get out there and do it. It would benefit the entire industry all the way back to Japan and Austria. Not everyone is in to some taliban conspiracy shit, the current 4strokes are great bikes to go fast on but was it a good move? An actual step forward? I say no.
Pro teams spend more money, amateurs go from 80cc bikes to 250fs, etc...
"No big names will ride for them" Two world champs and Dungey not big names to you? You hitting the bottle early on New Years?
seth505
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12/31/2012 7:27pm
seth505 wrote:
^You are exactly right on that. But your post above that about not needing equal displacement I don't agree with. Ok, say we end up with...
^You are exactly right on that.

But your post above that about not needing equal displacement I don't agree with. Ok, say we end up with equal displacement and a Yamaha or KTM team comes along riding 2strokes...ya there is almost 0% chance they'll win right away (because no big names will ride for them) but then they develop the bike and spend much less on racing costs (compared to the 250f volatile rocketship motors) and have more and more money to play with and get good riders. Those good riders that end up on the bike could easily smoke the field.

Bottom line, racing could still be going on and amateurs could still be racing and spending a lot less to get out there and do it. It would benefit the entire industry all the way back to Japan and Austria. Not everyone is in to some taliban conspiracy shit, the current 4strokes are great bikes to go fast on but was it a good move? An actual step forward? I say no.
Pro teams spend more money, amateurs go from 80cc bikes to 250fs, etc...
mx317 wrote:
"No big names will ride for them" Two world champs and Dungey not big names to you? You hitting the bottle early on New Years?
What about 2 world champs and Dungey? I'm talking about people who will race a 2 stroke the entire series (if the rules were changed to 250 vs 250f or even with the current rules I guess). Just because factory ktm has 2 strokes doesn't mean they'd be a team to switch over from their current race bikes.
Hando
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12/31/2012 8:01pm
put 9500K rpm rev limit on 250F

problem solved

im not a fan of 4-strokes but the 450s aren't that bad..its the 250s that are killin the sport'
Derpin' DJ
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12/31/2012 8:10pm
I'll agree that they should probably enforce a rev limit. 9500 is a bit low in my opinion. Something like 11000 would be all right. Compression ratio is another thing they should look into limiting.
wow123
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12/31/2012 8:49pm
Matthes wrote:
This thing is just going to turn into what these things always do so I'm out. I generally stay out of these arguments, there's no changing...
This thing is just going to turn into what these things always do so I'm out. I generally stay out of these arguments, there's no changing anyone's mind and then crackpots start talking about industry conspiracies and it goes downhill from there.

I grew up and raced two-strokes & was a mechanic for a long time when they raced. And four-strokes have made sx more predictable & less exciting than it was in those days. But you can't change the rules now, it wouldn't be fair for the reasons I've already stated. And as a bit of a gear head, I love the advances and technology of the thumpers as opposed to years and years of two-strokes being the same exact bike.

BUT the original post was about MXA and that's what caused me to post. The hypocrisy of Jody is amazing and if he would just come out and admit that he LOVED the four-strokes and promoted the shit out of them when they first hit the scene (and therefore helped to ruin the two-stroke sales in a small way) and say that he was wrong, it would be fine. But he's too arrogant for to do that and that is why his manifesto's are garbage. Same as the anti-GP stance he took until his buddies at GH got a GP and he switched to liking the GP's- but now he hates the GP"s again. It's BS and I'm not sure how anyone can take him seriously at this point.

It's a shame because it was a great magazine.
And as a bit of a gear head, I love the advances and technology of the thumpers as opposed to years and years of two-strokes being the same exact bike.

I dont agree.

What advances has the 4 st engine made, more hp and torque sure, but what else?

The Yam 250f engine is how old?

Maybe you see trick stuff from the pits, but I dont see it.
WhipMeister
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Big D, TX US
12/31/2012 11:38pm
Matthes wrote:
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't...
Times are different now. At this point, with one OEM guy telling me off-road bikes sales are 70% off from ten years ago, the OEM's aren't going to start making new two-strokes in hopes of selling them. Look at all the advancements they've done on four-strokes and R&D money they've poured into them.

If you did change the rule, you'd have to give the OEM's a 3 year warning. That's generally how far ahead they are in planning.
Well, the obvious question is whether or not they have the objectivity to consider what the contribution the decision to replace the existing product line with a more expensive to buy and maintain product line had to do with that drop in demand,

Just asking the obvious question. Don't expect an answer, though.
Erick
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NL
1/2/2013 11:08am
A 2012 KTM 250SX two-strokes costs $6695 and the 2012 KTM 450SXF four-stroke costs $8795. That $2100 price difference could finance your whole racing season.


This.

How many top-ends can you do for $2100? A new piston every 25 hours using good fuel (we use 98 octane, 1:40), $150 per rebuild? Thats 14 top-ends for 350 hours of riding.


If you buy a second hand 2 stroke it will be cheaper after some TLC rather than a 4 stroke, which costs more.
three9zero
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Kamloops B.C CA
1/2/2013 12:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 12:11pm
three9zero wrote:
As a KTM, Yammy, Suzy and Kawi dealer I can tell you the best selling performance dirt bikes so far this season. My shop is in...
As a KTM, Yammy, Suzy and Kawi dealer I can tell you the best selling performance dirt bikes so far this season. My shop is in an area that the economy is rocking and we have a world class motocross track right inside city limits(across the street from our shop) that sells seasons passes for $ 500 a year and its open to anybody 6 days a week weather permitting...
#1. KTM 300 xc
#2. KTM 300xcw
#3. KTM 250 sx
#4. KTM 350 sxf
#5. YZ 250
#7.KTM 250 xc
#8 KX 250f
#9 KX450f
***RMZ 250's have been poplular this season too...we just got them 2 weeks ago and have sold 3.....
Until we drop the price of the Japan bikes, the KTMs sell more than all 3 Jap brands combined, Kawi now leads the way in Jap stuff,and it's what I currently ride......
My next bike will be a 150 sx BTW
So you work at Blackfoot. IS Ron still working in Sales? Wiry guy under 6', fairly fast on a bike. Knew him years ago when I...
So you work at Blackfoot. IS Ron still working in Sales? Wiry guy under 6', fairly fast on a bike. Knew him years ago when I lived in Calgary. Proud member of Team Head right here. Lol




Kerry Hook. Man could that guy fly a bike with style. Fearless. The more cold beer and pizza he ate during the day, the harder it was to catch him. Lol.








The goon in pursuit on my shiny new 94.
lol, yep old Ron works here in sales with me, he's a great guy and still hauls ass on a dirt scooter. This year he rode a KTM 150 Sx and now he's on a 250 xc. Living here is great, killer riding in the summer and fall and great skiing in the winter.
burn1986
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1/2/2013 12:37pm
twosmoke30 wrote:
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTANT-TWOSTROKE-AFICIO-7970.aspx to DC [b](7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got...
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/JODYS-MANIFESTO-OF-AN-UNREPENTA…

to DC

(7) What’s fair? How about a 250cc class that is open to 250cc machinery regardless of its engine type. The four-stroke only got where it is today because someone wrote a rule in 1997 that allowed to be bigger. That same someone could could write a new rule in 2013 that would make the advantage go away.
Matthes wrote:
Revisionist history for sure, he wasn't always for the two-stroke like he says. Anyone have a copy of MXA's back when he was telling everyone to...
Revisionist history for sure, he wasn't always for the two-stroke like he says. Anyone have a copy of MXA's back when he was telling everyone to buy one, they're the greatest thing ever, they won shoot-outs. MXA has a part to blame for the increased sales because they were telling everyone to buy one.

If you change the rule and some guys get on two-strokes and win races, what are you going to tell Suzuki, Kawasaki and Honda who spend millions of dollars racing your series and don't have a bike to compete with?

Sorry guys? Thanks for the support but now we've made it so you're going to be at a competitive disadvantage. They'll just go home.

Blame the AMA back in the day for making the ridiculous displacement rules and then being slow to change them. Blame all the dudes who paid full pop for thumpers and then when they all flew out the door, blame the OEM's for giving consumers what they want. Just don't blame the people in power now because this horse has left the barn.
Good points, Matthes.

I don't think anyone could have planned for how grossly the 4s would be marketed and take over, when the YZ400 began. It didn't take long to see the writing on the wall though, and the AMA jumped on board by changing the rules again to favor the 4s.

I wonder sometimes why MXA publishes some of this stuff, since they aren't fully committed to the 2-stroke cause. Either way, they have strengthened the 2stroke base and have helped sway some readers with their comments. MXA simply cannot be taken seriously.
scooter5002
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1/2/2013 1:12pm
three9zero wrote:
lol, yep old Ron works here in sales with me, he's a great guy and still hauls ass on a dirt scooter. This year he rode...
lol, yep old Ron works here in sales with me, he's a great guy and still hauls ass on a dirt scooter. This year he rode a KTM 150 Sx and now he's on a 250 xc. Living here is great, killer riding in the summer and fall and great skiing in the winter.
No shit! Well tell him the Big Guy says hello, I picked up my brand new 02 250 Yam right before I moved back east. In an effort to keep my future ex-wife happy. Lol. You can see how THAT worked out. Get his e-mail and PM it to me, if he wants to chat, love to see what he's up to. Wink
three9zero
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1/2/2013 2:45pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 2:46pm
No shit! Well tell him the Big Guy says hello, I picked up my brand new 02 250 Yam right before I moved back east. In...
No shit! Well tell him the Big Guy says hello, I picked up my brand new 02 250 Yam right before I moved back east. In an effort to keep my future ex-wife happy. Lol. You can see how THAT worked out. Get his e-mail and PM it to me, if he wants to chat, love to see what he's up to. Wink
I can't send you a pm for some reason but here is our site with his ugly ass photo and email.....
http://www.blackfootonline.com/moto_staff.php
scooter5002
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1/2/2013 2:47pm Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 4:56pm
Thanks. Will do. Revised to suit. LOL. I see your changed post. Good call.
7eleven
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Aliso Viejo, CA US
1/2/2013 3:41pm
I think a bike needs to be a custom fitting, like a suit. Some guys can't ride 2 strokes to say their lives, some guys can't afford a 4 stroke. If you are not racing for a living, ride what suits you best!
I love a good 450, but I can't do my own pistons or valves. Yeah I could go buy tools and hopefully not make a mistake putting it back together, but I never have.
I have regressed to a pair of 03 CR 250's and doing my own work again. I really like having the light weight underneath me again. My decision was a money based one, and I'm glad I did it.
New bikes are amazing, and if I was a rich guy I'd have a 10K bike, but I'm not, so it's back to what I can afford to maintain, ride and race. These 2 stroke 250's still give me my moto fix, and it feels good to hold a bike WFO again.

16 year AMA Pro-(93'-08')

I believe Jody put it this way too...
sec114
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Orange Park, FL US
1/2/2013 4:00pm
Choppy wrote:
"THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION IN THE BACK MY MIND AS TO WHETHER I’M FASTER ON A TWO-STROKE OR A FOUR-STROKE. I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I’VE...
"THERE IS ALWAYS THE QUESTION IN THE BACK MY MIND AS TO WHETHER I’M FASTER ON A TWO-STROKE OR A FOUR-STROKE. I DON’T KNOW BECAUSE I’VE NEVER RACED AGAINST MYSELF."

The guy runs a magazine but can't get a stopwatch to figure this out?

The guy doesn't go to pro races so as long as Glen Helen allows 250t vs 250f why would he care? Do they not?
i think about 1.5 years ago, MXA did a yamaha 250 shootout between the 4 &2 strokes. i think they made a statement about as far as timing laps went, each tester was overall the same lap times once they adjusted to the bike.

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