If Noise is the cause of Track Closures...

8/12/2011 3:31pm
The Rock wrote:
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Rewinding for a bit I apologize for being dismissive earlier of your political change stance. In retrospect...
What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Rewinding for a bit I apologize for being dismissive earlier of your political change stance. In retrospect I know what it is like to have your efforts dismissed or misinterpreted but here I was doing the exact thing to you that people do to me. My bad.

Okay while I am not pumped to be 55 one positive is I've had more time to think about things plus have been blessed by having some pretty intelligent people for friends. When I was younger I was all about "if I was right" then I'd forge ahead and whatever happened was okay because "I'm was right." My buddy Bruce who is retired in South Dakota got through to me about ten years ago. It isn't about being right.

News bulletin for you: I have nothing to prove to you or convince you of regarding any of this. I'm fine with your and many others' views that professional racing doesn't need sound limits followed by the list of things you provided.

I'm really not cool with you or anyone twisting my position while ignoring what I stated at the onset. Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems. Dust is an issue. Zoning is an issue. A lot of people just don't like motorcycles and probably still won't like them after we're on electrics but what are we going to do about it. I get it.

Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems Quite a bit of what you've written regarding your impression of my position totally ignores this statement but hey this is the Internet right?

I wish you the best of luck with your effort . I am a AMA and NOHVCC member and a fan of less sound equals more ground.

Can you handle it?
Kinda odd Rock - you start out with the apology and then it's right back to all the bull hunky - "I have intelligent friends" 'It isn't about being right" 'News bulletin for you" 'I have nothing to prove" "Can you handle it" Really, don't you think it would be better if we just stuck to the issue?

Which has more measurable success in keeping riding areas open, quiet bikes or getting people involved in protecting our rights to ride?

For me, what I "Get" is that although the two are not exclusive of each other, if I had to pick, I'd pick organizing and pro-actively going after our rights every time over chasing the dream that somehow we can have bikes that are quiet enough to keep riding areas open.

Anyways, I admire your passion Rock and we agree that quiet bikes help. It's just that I have moved a little beyond that single issue.

Good luck!

BTW - Look up the following if you want to know where I spend my time, energy and money:

http://www.sharetrails.org/

http://www.corva.org/

http://www.nora-usa.com/

http://www.otbmbc.com/
The Rock
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8/12/2011 3:48pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2011 4:24pm
Your repetitive incorrect assumptions about my chasing the dream that somehow we can have bikes that are quiet enough to keep riding areas open. just won't stop will they?

I don't recall saying or reading anyone ever said any one thing is enough but I do recall saying


Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
8/12/2011 7:13pm
The Rock wrote:
Your repetitive incorrect assumptions about my [i]chasing the dream that somehow we can have bikes that are quiet enough to keep riding areas open.[/i] just won't...
Your repetitive incorrect assumptions about my chasing the dream that somehow we can have bikes that are quiet enough to keep riding areas open. just won't stop will they?

I don't recall saying or reading anyone ever said any one thing is enough but I do recall saying


Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems
Yeah, what was I thinking!? You got it all figured out. Only problem is that the drum you're beating seems to have only one note.

"For sure it is only a coincidence we lost more tracks after the four strokes arrived.....pure coincidence I tell ya"

"I had a leading sound guy tell me his take is when people hear dirt bikes when they are enjoying the great outdoors the noise subconsciously reminds them of being startled by a motorcycles splitting lanes with the end result being negative feelings towards off roaders."

"Not sure about that but I do know I've had the bejeezus scared out of me by street bikers blasting by me either lane splitting at stop lights on on the freeway in traffic. it will be a beautiful day when straight pipe on street bikes are a memory."

"By the time we will be riding electric bikes your political change program will still be searching for traction. If some influential people in this sport don't think there is a noise problem how in the world do you think a political solution is going to change things?"

"I bet whoever thought up less sound equals more ground had no idea what a difficult concept this would be to grasp in the 21ast century."

And my favorite:

"Best of luck luck with your political change "we have rights!" program. That's a sure fire fix to our track issues if I've ever heard one."

For a guy who can only point to a single post, "Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems" and claiming you "Get it" you sure do spend a lot of time banging that drum about how we need quiet bikes. Not only that, but you seem to have a propensity to tear down the ideas of people who offer an alternative point of view (You may want to re-read your last quote from above)

Give it up Rock. Ya dug a hole and all ya got is "Quiet bikes are not the panacea to all of our problems" I am glad we agree on two things now.

So answer the question: - Which one has more measurable success in keeping riding areas open, quiet bikes or getting people involved in protecting our rights to ride?
8/12/2011 7:54pm Edited Date/Time 8/12/2011 8:01pm


The four stroke noise isn't nearly as bad as it was five or six years ago and bikes are getting quieter every year. The perception by the general public of dirt bike riders being hooligans is IMO the bigger issue. In most areas the people who make the rules identify with things like skiing, golf, cycling, baseball etc but certainly not moto. I think the reason SoCal has so many excellent tracks (Starwest above) is because of the sheer number of riders here. We actually have political clout. Even the chief of police (LAPD), Charley Beck, races moto...

The Shop

bullpen58
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8/12/2011 11:44pm
Jake is right.

Rock, put down the pipe. This sport is suffering and I'm sure the noise is part of the problem, but it is the cost that has gotten completely out of hand.....and most tracks seem to close because of insurance problems. Greedy lawyers.
nytsmaC
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8/13/2011 12:06am
The 4-strokes have pissed me off to the point that I have now started a petition to have my local track shut down.
The Rock
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8/13/2011 4:59pm Edited Date/Time 8/14/2011 2:45pm
Not really sure what your question has to do with the price of tea in China but don't let go of that bone.

So answer the question: - Which one has more measurable success in keeping riding areas open, quiet bikes or getting people involved in protecting our rights to ride?

So what exactly is "measurable success? anyway?" AMA member increases, tracks remaining open, BRC member increases? What exactly is being measured and how are you collecting this data? Personal impressions aren't the same as facts.

I'm also not aware of any one person or any groups lobbying for lower sound levels or anyone calling for sound testing for that matter. Are you?
The Rock
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8/16/2011 8:35pm Edited Date/Time 8/17/2011 8:27am
Are you there jakefortyeight?

I've had plenty of experience dealing with straw man arguments like yours and is why I am asking you for clarification. For the record I was actually looking forward to you defining the metrics your question was based on.

You can forget the last question if you like as nobody else hasn't been able to answer that either RE: Are you aware of any one person or any groups lobbying for lower sound levels or anyone calling for sound testing for that matter?

Fact is no one wants lower sound limits and no one is calling for more sound testing.
RightToRide
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1/2/2013 12:43am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 12:45am
5,8,11,12,14

although i lean more towards your side jake48, the increased noise has not helped the situation one bit...
The Rock wrote:
Thank you for hitting the nail on the head Sparkalounger but I really hope you aren't naive and a one trick pony too for thinking this...
Thank you for hitting the nail on the head Sparkalounger but I really hope you aren't naive and a one trick pony too for thinking this way. LOL

jakefortyeight- Why the rant in view of my comment:

Are quieter bikes the panacea for every problem our sport faces? Of course not Will quieter bikes help us and remove one less objection (and a huge one) given by those who want to see us go away? Absolutely.

Best of luck luck with your political change "we have rights!" program. That's a sure fire fix to our track issues if I've ever heard one.

EDIT: sparkalounger-Your son is lucky to have you for a father. Keep up the great work!
Fighting for the rights of private motocross track owners everywhere



Let Us Ride


Our Mission
Published on September 19, 2012 in About the Cause

Most of us who have had private motocross tracks on our property at some time or another have had to deal with issues with county or state agencies, usually arising from neighbors that are unhappy with the sound that our motocross bikes emit. Most times due to the extreme cost of a legal defense, many people decide to stop riding on their own property.

Let Us Ride, Inc. is a nonprofit organization and our mission is to work directly with individual land-owners on a case-by-case basis that have a legitimate right to have private motocross tracks on their property. We support them in their fight against local county and state agencies that are trying to take this right away.

If you are in support of our cause, please sign our petition so that we may use it to help defend the right to ride. Thank you.
Motodave15
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1/2/2013 4:23am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 4:25am
things i never understand.

1. why move within a mile of a motocross facility then complain about the sound?

2. If you dont want noise, move to a area of that kind of people?

Now here is a problem that happend back in 03... (To this day, im still pissed abut it)

Fairplex mx, which was on pomona fairgrounds had opened up in like september. was superclose to ride, like a godsend at the time.

anyway we all had to pass a sound test in order to ride the track, which we did. (Some of you guys may have ridden there)
i believe the bikes had to be under 102 db on the reader, otherwise you had to go home.

Now, everything was cool for about 2 months, i believe and then the neighbors started complaining about sound to the local politicians... But i was told they were on our side etc, as they had given the green light on the track.

anyhoo, flash forward to january of 04 there was a pretty bad rain, for a couple of days and the track was shutdown.. (NO RIDING AT ALL)..On this week of no riding due to rain, the neighbors were all complaining of sound from the track!!! It was total bullshit and to top it off they got caught in the lie, by the city.. But they got there way, and shut the whole thing down.

maybe somebody else has some info on that situation.. But I think people just dont like motorcycles/ motocross specifically and try any way possible to stop us.
Rooster
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1/2/2013 10:01am
The last two organizations I was on the executive councils for in road racing both faced having their access to tracks shut down due to excessive noise.

Both organizations instituted noise testing and mandated such things as stock mufflers only and in both cases that wasn't enough for the supermoto/super singles classes that required the use of items like the dbdawg to further lower sound. Big four stroke singles are louder than a 600cc inline four on the pipe and the noise carries further due to the additional bass.

Once we as an organization put these new rules into effect, the complaints went away. One track had a problem neighbor who definitely had a bug up her ass about motorcycles in general. She feared our road racing club would lead to prostitution in her rural area, so it was obvious it wasn't just noise for her, but it reduced the complaints by a ton. Also by showing we were working with the community, we managed to get the city councils on to our side. The threats of shutdown ceased, the track owners were happy, the city council was happy and the neighbors were happy as well.

The problem bitch wound up taking the one track to court over something to do with water runoff and it took a judge and a counter suit to put her in her place. When the judge saw how we worked with the community to reduced the complaints and with her rant about all motorcyclists are bikers and gang members he was easily on our side. He saw that we were willing to compromise and that she simply would not. At that point, she became the problem within the community and not us.

If you don't think you need to help find and be part of a solution to protecting our existing tracks and riding areas, you're doing as much damage as the Sierra Club is in helping to reduce our options. Being an obstinate prick in the face of complaints doesn't win friends and isn't fighting for your rights. It's ignoring a problem and creating animosity with neighbors who will only elevate their level of complaints when they are ignored or insulted for bringing them forward.

City councils and the court system do see tracks as something that disturbs the peace of the surrounding area. They also see them as something that brings revenue into the area as well. If you're reasonable and you show that you're a responsible member of the community that is willing to work with them to reduce complaints it's easy to get them on your side.
Suns_PSD
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1/2/2013 10:30am Edited Date/Time 1/2/2013 10:31am
Here is an example.

My wife bought my 14 year old stepdaughter an XBox for Christmas. The girl already has a gaming computer, Ipad, and a smart phone and spends way too much time indoors.

I suggested a Bicycle so she could have a bit of freedom around the hood, see friends, ride at one of the many parks, and just get out more. But ultimately the XBox won out. Although my wife 100% agreed with me, watching the news every night and checking sexual predator websites has her terrified (to be fair, that did happen to her as a child) and has put her in a position where she doesn't want her running around outside at all, in a nice neighborhood btw.
1/2/2013 11:23am
Rooster wrote:
The last two organizations I was on the executive councils for in road racing both faced having their access to tracks shut down due to excessive...
The last two organizations I was on the executive councils for in road racing both faced having their access to tracks shut down due to excessive noise.

Both organizations instituted noise testing and mandated such things as stock mufflers only and in both cases that wasn't enough for the supermoto/super singles classes that required the use of items like the dbdawg to further lower sound. Big four stroke singles are louder than a 600cc inline four on the pipe and the noise carries further due to the additional bass.

Once we as an organization put these new rules into effect, the complaints went away. One track had a problem neighbor who definitely had a bug up her ass about motorcycles in general. She feared our road racing club would lead to prostitution in her rural area, so it was obvious it wasn't just noise for her, but it reduced the complaints by a ton. Also by showing we were working with the community, we managed to get the city councils on to our side. The threats of shutdown ceased, the track owners were happy, the city council was happy and the neighbors were happy as well.

The problem bitch wound up taking the one track to court over something to do with water runoff and it took a judge and a counter suit to put her in her place. When the judge saw how we worked with the community to reduced the complaints and with her rant about all motorcyclists are bikers and gang members he was easily on our side. He saw that we were willing to compromise and that she simply would not. At that point, she became the problem within the community and not us.

If you don't think you need to help find and be part of a solution to protecting our existing tracks and riding areas, you're doing as much damage as the Sierra Club is in helping to reduce our options. Being an obstinate prick in the face of complaints doesn't win friends and isn't fighting for your rights. It's ignoring a problem and creating animosity with neighbors who will only elevate their level of complaints when they are ignored or insulted for bringing them forward.

City councils and the court system do see tracks as something that disturbs the peace of the surrounding area. They also see them as something that brings revenue into the area as well. If you're reasonable and you show that you're a responsible member of the community that is willing to work with them to reduce complaints it's easy to get them on your side.
BAMN!

Someone who gets it! Noise is often used as the excuse, but quieter bikes in and of themselves will never be enough. Working within the system, showing you are making a reasonable effort to appease noise concerns, using facts to show how the community benefits (Tax revenues, recreational outlet for families, putting real numbers on the revenue that will be generated from money spent by people traveling to track etc) combined with proactively using laws to PROTECT our rights (Yes, we have rights too!!!) and demonstrating some political clout is how we will save tracks and riding areas.

If you think 10 less db is going to save your track or favorite riding area and all you have to do is instal a silencer that makes your bike quieter - good luck and say good by to your track....
onetimepost
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1/2/2013 11:49am
The Rock wrote:
Not really sure what your question has to do with the price of tea in China but don't let go of that bone. [b]So answer the...
Not really sure what your question has to do with the price of tea in China but don't let go of that bone.

So answer the question: - Which one has more measurable success in keeping riding areas open, quiet bikes or getting people involved in protecting our rights to ride?

So what exactly is "measurable success? anyway?" AMA member increases, tracks remaining open, BRC member increases? What exactly is being measured and how are you collecting this data? Personal impressions aren't the same as facts.

I'm also not aware of any one person or any groups lobbying for lower sound levels or anyone calling for sound testing for that matter. Are you?
Having quieter bikes is definitely a good idea, but c’mon Rock, it’s not hard to understand jakefortyeight’s point (who has been very respectful in all his posts). By the way I am an AMA member (among ca. 217,500), and as such I actually propose that we elect a new President. I vote for Wayne Lapierre: if this guy is able to avoid new laws making assault rifles being illegal, imagine what he could do for us riding loud dirt bikes. Seriously, I just took the NRA (4.3 million members, $205 million annual revenue) as an example because it speaks volume and just shows that jakefortyeight is right. Politicians don’t give a damn about noisy dirt bikes, they only care about your vote.
MBBadgers
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1/2/2013 3:11pm
The Rock wrote:
For sure it is only a coincidence we lost more tracks after the four strokes arrived.....pure coincidence I tell ya
In my opinion for every track that has closed a new one has opened up, seems like everyone and their brother is running a track these days.
headache
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1/3/2013 9:55am
In my opinion theres alot more than noise thats causing tracks to close. I'm not sure about where everybody else lives but here in Arkansas the economy is still crap. Very few jobs to be had, and where i work pay raises only come around every 15-18 months and it doesn't even cover the price of living going up. A local track here closed this summer, the owner said that just the insurance on the track was 10 grand for a year. (yes even tho people sign a waiver when they race dont mean crap, if someone breaks their neck on your track you prob will get sued). cost of bikes are rediculous, paying 8000 for a dirtbike is just too much. Having to spend more than half your paycheck for gas and entry fees for a race is too much. everything is just too much.

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