Herlings on the MX1 and MX2 combo

11/30/2012 7:40am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 7:45am
All I've gotten from reading this thread is only the top 10 riders are important and worth watching, screw the riders the fans are the only thing important and Negative people say negative things and positive people say positive things.

Did I miss anything?
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 7:49am
steed 2.0 wrote:
your statement is smacked with patriotism EMX= European championship 125 & 250 small teams and privateers (semi-professionals) GP= World championship 250 & 450 Factory teams (full-professionals)...
your statement is smacked with patriotism

EMX= European championship 125 & 250 small teams and privateers (semi-professionals)
GP= World championship 250 & 450 Factory teams (full-professionals)

No one left behind but Don't try to punch above your weight
You might disagree, but how does it smack with patriotism?

I'm pretty sure Holigan is punching at his weight in terms of having a perspective on marketing, series promotion and the challenges of making a team viable in professional motocross.

There's a lot of irrational cross series blather here, but surely you're not saying constructive criticism hasn't got a place?

The fact is that fans are important, as are teams, as are promoters. They all are stakeholders. Their interests also aren't always in complete alignment. There's a bit of game theory at play here to get the best outcome for everyone, rather than a promoter just running the system to maximize his own return because he can tell the others to pound sand and milk it for as much as he can in the short term.
11/30/2012 7:49am
Ironically Mr. Positive is throwing out some negatives about series etc...
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol, GB
11/30/2012 8:05am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 8:07am
The GP's will always struggle to compete with Supercross, the same way the Outdoor Championship struggles to compete with Supercross.

Its never been a choice between the GP's and the Outdoor Nationals, its always been a choice between racing the GPs and a combined package of Supercross + Outdoor Nationals.

Thats a pretty attractive and more importantly lucrative proposition to any young rider with stars in their eyes.

The Shop

steed 2.0
Posts
3481
Joined
9/27/2012
Location
Brabant, NL
11/30/2012 8:16am
You might disagree, but how does it smack with patriotism? I'm pretty sure Holigan is punching at his weight in terms of having a perspective on...
You might disagree, but how does it smack with patriotism?

I'm pretty sure Holigan is punching at his weight in terms of having a perspective on marketing, series promotion and the challenges of making a team viable in professional motocross.

There's a lot of irrational cross series blather here, but surely you're not saying constructive criticism hasn't got a place?

The fact is that fans are important, as are teams, as are promoters. They all are stakeholders. Their interests also aren't always in complete alignment. There's a bit of game theory at play here to get the best outcome for everyone, rather than a promoter just running the system to maximize his own return because he can tell the others to pound sand and milk it for as much as he can in the short term.
why fly overseas? if they already struggle to set their budget for the Euroland races
( that's what I mean with Don't try to punch above your weight) they can ride EMX without overseas races

I love to see 40 riders but only 15 major teams so far
motoGP starting grid also halved compared to the 80's
priveteers are gate fillers and don't have a fair chance against factory teams, everyone in their own league imo
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 8:18am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 8:22am
jamma10 wrote:
The GP's will always struggle to compete with Supercross, the same way the Outdoor Championship struggles to compete with Supercross. Its never been a choice between...
The GP's will always struggle to compete with Supercross, the same way the Outdoor Championship struggles to compete with Supercross.

Its never been a choice between the GP's and the Outdoor Nationals, its always been a choice between racing the GPs and a combined package of Supercross + Outdoor Nationals.

Thats a pretty attractive and more importantly lucrative proposition to any young rider with stars in their eyes.
I'll grant you that SX is top dog in terms of current position and probably OEM priority. But I'd argue that YS, with the GP franchise, is in a unique place to supplant SX as the premier series if YS was serious about that and willing to make it a priority, expend the energy, and assume the financial risk to make it happen. The US outdoor series can't do that because of existing contractual relationships with SX about who runs when and how many rounds. But there isn't anything other than money and promotional vigor in the way of making the GPs more important than SX. I don't think it matters where the tracks are located (look at SX); what matters getting the top talent paid more and having an excellent TV package.
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 8:29am
You might disagree, but how does it smack with patriotism? I'm pretty sure Holigan is punching at his weight in terms of having a perspective on...
You might disagree, but how does it smack with patriotism?

I'm pretty sure Holigan is punching at his weight in terms of having a perspective on marketing, series promotion and the challenges of making a team viable in professional motocross.

There's a lot of irrational cross series blather here, but surely you're not saying constructive criticism hasn't got a place?

The fact is that fans are important, as are teams, as are promoters. They all are stakeholders. Their interests also aren't always in complete alignment. There's a bit of game theory at play here to get the best outcome for everyone, rather than a promoter just running the system to maximize his own return because he can tell the others to pound sand and milk it for as much as he can in the short term.
steed 2.0 wrote:
why fly overseas? if they already struggle to set their budget for the Euroland races ( that's what I mean with Don't try to punch above...
why fly overseas? if they already struggle to set their budget for the Euroland races
( that's what I mean with Don't try to punch above your weight) they can ride EMX without overseas races

I love to see 40 riders but only 15 major teams so far
motoGP starting grid also halved compared to the 80's
priveteers are gate fillers and don't have a fair chance against factory teams, everyone in their own league imo
If there are only 15 teams, maybe something is skewed in the system to the detriment of the teams and getting more competitive riders on the track.

Or maybe YS has concluded that it only needs 20 riders in a class and we're being weaned to that. I think there's a fair argument in the current setting that combining the classes doesn't create more opportunities for teams all other things being equal. But certainly YS is entitled to pursue that vision, and as I've said I am looking forward to seeing how the combined classes play out because I believe having all the talent in one class makes for better racing, and is ideal for the future if that can be sustained and the financial foundation put in place to support enough teams to make a full gate.
steed 2.0
Posts
3481
Joined
9/27/2012
Location
Brabant, NL
11/30/2012 8:45am
If there are only 15 teams, maybe something is skewed in the system to the detriment of the teams and getting more competitive riders on the...
If there are only 15 teams, maybe something is skewed in the system to the detriment of the teams and getting more competitive riders on the track.

Or maybe YS has concluded that it only needs 20 riders in a class and we're being weaned to that. I think there's a fair argument in the current setting that combining the classes doesn't create more opportunities for teams all other things being equal. But certainly YS is entitled to pursue that vision, and as I've said I am looking forward to seeing how the combined classes play out because I believe having all the talent in one class makes for better racing, and is ideal for the future if that can be sustained and the financial foundation put in place to support enough teams to make a full gate.
it was always that way 15 major teams, 5 factory teams and 10 satellite teams
back in the days privateers teams had something to spend, old school was black money those days never return
1-forty-8
Posts
1764
Joined
9/9/2011
Location
GB
11/30/2012 8:52am
Instead of going to Thailand the series should be going to Oz, and instead of Mexico it should be going to Canada, ya know where there's an actual market for this thing of ours.. And as a 15 year long fan of the sport I'd be much more excited about Canada and Oz getting races (where you'd think they'd know how to prep a track) than Thailand and Mexico (shudder). I don't think the GP's are as bad as some make out, but seriously, some of the tracks are a complete joke. I mean a World GP race that takes place on a flat field? Geoff, you gotta admit some of the tracks are complete shite.. You have too.. If you don't then you really are Luongo 's bitch..
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 8:54am
steed 2.0 wrote:
it was always that way 15 major teams, 5 factory teams and 10 satellite teams back in the days privateers teams had something to spend, old...
it was always that way 15 major teams, 5 factory teams and 10 satellite teams
back in the days privateers teams had something to spend, old school was black money those days never return
Well, your mind's made up.

Prosperity for more teams is not old school, and waving it off as impossibly nostalgic is just a decision.
steed 2.0
Posts
3481
Joined
9/27/2012
Location
Brabant, NL
11/30/2012 9:13am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 9:15am
Well, your mind's made up.

Prosperity for more teams is not old school, and waving it off as impossibly nostalgic is just a decision.
I hear you,
more satellite teams and attract large corporations ( not just new energy drinks) 3 hour mx at mainstream TV isnt realistic
1 hour mainstream TV can do the trick
if it grows it wil be probably only mx1 at mainstream TV like in the old days 500cc and the rest will be shown at mx-life
11/30/2012 9:23am
Mate, the risking their lives doesn't cut it with me. Riders race because they love it, nobody is putting a gun to their head. 18 rounds...
Mate, the risking their lives doesn't cut it with me. Riders race because they love it, nobody is putting a gun to their head. 18 rounds instead of 16 and races in cool places like Thailand and Qatar doesn't sounds broken to me.
wow123 wrote:
some what poor wording, neither qatar nor thailand are cool, in fact they both very hot places, and are hitting thailand smack in the middle of...
some what poor wording, neither qatar nor thailand are cool, in fact they both very hot places, and are hitting thailand smack in the middle of the hot season.........38c+ (100+) and very very humid, thats gonna waste many riders coming out of a euro winter.

and the thai race will have issues.

eg thailand hosted the footsal world cup (indoor soccer), they built a purpose built stadium that fifa canned cause it wasn't up to standard and had safety issues.

sounds great on paper but.......well maybe the euro guy can pull it together, i do hope so
Mate, you ever been to either place. Qatar is over the top cool!!!
11/30/2012 9:25am
1-forty-8 wrote:
Instead of going to Thailand the series should be going to Oz, and instead of Mexico it should be going to Canada, ya know where there's...
Instead of going to Thailand the series should be going to Oz, and instead of Mexico it should be going to Canada, ya know where there's an actual market for this thing of ours.. And as a 15 year long fan of the sport I'd be much more excited about Canada and Oz getting races (where you'd think they'd know how to prep a track) than Thailand and Mexico (shudder). I don't think the GP's are as bad as some make out, but seriously, some of the tracks are a complete joke. I mean a World GP race that takes place on a flat field? Geoff, you gotta admit some of the tracks are complete shite.. You have too.. If you don't then you really are Luongo 's bitch..
Smack me, slap me!!!! RRRRRRRRRRR
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol, GB
11/30/2012 9:28am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 9:32am
1-forty-8 wrote:
Instead of going to Thailand the series should be going to Oz, and instead of Mexico it should be going to Canada, ya know where there's...
Instead of going to Thailand the series should be going to Oz, and instead of Mexico it should be going to Canada, ya know where there's an actual market for this thing of ours.. And as a 15 year long fan of the sport I'd be much more excited about Canada and Oz getting races (where you'd think they'd know how to prep a track) than Thailand and Mexico (shudder). I don't think the GP's are as bad as some make out, but seriously, some of the tracks are a complete joke. I mean a World GP race that takes place on a flat field? Geoff, you gotta admit some of the tracks are complete shite.. You have too.. If you don't then you really are Luongo 's bitch..
Which GP's take place on a flat field?

Youthstream actually reconsidered this issue after taking into account the negative public feeling about tracks like Donington and Mallory park. I think there is a great variety of tracks on the calendar now. And so what if Mexico wasn't perfect? It was the first time they had held anything like that, it takes a while to get things right.

I agree there should be a GP in Australia (or New Zealand), but Im also intrigued by the GP's in Qatar and Thailand and look forward to seeing how things go.
1-forty-8
Posts
1764
Joined
9/9/2011
Location
GB
11/30/2012 9:36am
jamma10 wrote:
Which GP's take place on a flat field? Youthstream actually reconsidered this issue after taking into account the negative public feeling about tracks like Donington and...
Which GP's take place on a flat field?

Youthstream actually reconsidered this issue after taking into account the negative public feeling about tracks like Donington and Mallory park. I think there is a great variety of tracks on the calendar now. And so what if Mexico wasn't perfect? It was the first time they had held anything like that, it takes a while to get things right.

I agree there should be a GP in Australia (or New Zealand), but Im also intrigued by the GP's in Qatar and Thailand and look forward to seeing how things go.
Bastogne, Mexico, Keggums (pretty flat but I do like that track), Thailand will be flat, Semigorje..

Mallory and Donnington just flat out sucked.
11/30/2012 9:46am
jamma10 wrote:
Which GP's take place on a flat field? Youthstream actually reconsidered this issue after taking into account the negative public feeling about tracks like Donington and...
Which GP's take place on a flat field?

Youthstream actually reconsidered this issue after taking into account the negative public feeling about tracks like Donington and Mallory park. I think there is a great variety of tracks on the calendar now. And so what if Mexico wasn't perfect? It was the first time they had held anything like that, it takes a while to get things right.

I agree there should be a GP in Australia (or New Zealand), but Im also intrigued by the GP's in Qatar and Thailand and look forward to seeing how things go.
1-forty-8 wrote:
Bastogne, Mexico, Keggums (pretty flat but I do like that track), Thailand will be flat, Semigorje..

Mallory and Donnington just flat out sucked.
Bastogne wasn't flat, either is Kegums, and I don't know about Mexico because I wasn't there. Saying Kegums is flat is like saying Budds Creek is flat. Hardly any difference with elevation.

Geoff
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 9:48am
Lommel is flat (sarcasm alert)
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol, GB
11/30/2012 9:50am
Kegums is also pretty much a sand track. The main thing is none of them resemble that track they built in Turkey in what, '09?
steed 2.0
Posts
3481
Joined
9/27/2012
Location
Brabant, NL
11/30/2012 9:51am
Interregnum we're in the middle of the Interregnum Wink
1-forty-8
Posts
1764
Joined
9/9/2011
Location
GB
11/30/2012 9:58am
jamma10 wrote:
Kegums is also pretty much a sand track. The main thing is none of them resemble that track they built in Turkey in what, '09?
And the track where Osborn won, I think was '11 maybe.. I forget where, but that track was a joke.

For me, when we had tracks like Namur and Foxhill, that was was the ultimate.. Maybe I'm just bitter those places were taken away from me lol Blush
ayearinmx
Posts
2760
Joined
3/5/2007
Location
GB
11/30/2012 10:01am
the whole thing is on a hillside..... not a Glen Helen hill, but a hill nevertheless

the track argument used to be valid but now i think there is a really good mix of terrain, from flat to hilly, from sand to hard pack and everything in between
1-forty-8
Posts
1764
Joined
9/9/2011
Location
GB
11/30/2012 10:05am
1-forty-8 wrote:
ayearinmx wrote:
the whole thing is on a hillside..... not a Glen Helen hill, but a hill nevertheless the track argument used to be valid but now i...
the whole thing is on a hillside..... not a Glen Helen hill, but a hill nevertheless

the track argument used to be valid but now i think there is a really good mix of terrain, from flat to hilly, from sand to hard pack and everything in between
Mexico and Thailand.

I'm sorry but it sucks. All the amazing tracks we have in the world and their going to Mexico and Thailand? How does that make sense?
mccread
Posts
5934
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
11/30/2012 10:12am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 10:14am
1-forty-8 wrote:
ayearinmx wrote:
the whole thing is on a hillside..... not a Glen Helen hill, but a hill nevertheless the track argument used to be valid but now i...
the whole thing is on a hillside..... not a Glen Helen hill, but a hill nevertheless

the track argument used to be valid but now i think there is a really good mix of terrain, from flat to hilly, from sand to hard pack and everything in between
1-forty-8 wrote:
Mexico and Thailand. I'm sorry but it sucks. All the amazing tracks we have in the world and their going to Mexico and Thailand? How does...
Mexico and Thailand.

I'm sorry but it sucks. All the amazing tracks we have in the world and their going to Mexico and Thailand? How does that make sense?
So out of 18 tracks next season you dont like two?

And only one of them was rode last year, and you havn't seen Thailand yet...

They race on Matterly Basin now... so using old tracks as an arguement to say all the current GP tracks are flat doesn't work.

I think the variety of the GP tracks are brilliant.. to be the best you have to be very versatile and race on everything.

They are even talking about going back to Hawkstone and Namur., they are riding Maggoria this year too, They still use old tracks.
ayearinmx
Posts
2760
Joined
3/5/2007
Location
GB
11/30/2012 10:15am
didn't go to Mexico, but I'm sure it'll be a lot better this year (can it get worse?) and Thailand hasn't even had their race yet... but you're right, why should a country who competes in the Motocross of Nations get a GP.....

like I said, plenty of things to complain about with the GPs but the tracks aren't one of them... they either have them all in Europe and be called a European Championship, or they have them spread around the globe and get bitched about because not everyone can go see every race in their car. Can't win.
tns
Posts
463
Joined
9/30/2008
Location
Dartford, GB
11/30/2012 10:32am
zooyork wrote:
Ever looked at the outdoor nationals Geoff? Organizing GPs in Mexico/Brasil/Thailand is the most stupid idea ever in these times of economic turndown unless YS would...
Ever looked at the outdoor nationals Geoff?

Organizing GPs in Mexico/Brasil/Thailand is the most stupid idea ever in these times of economic turndown unless YS would support every team (the small teams too!) to get there. Combining the MX2 and MX1... really?
I watch the Nationals on tv, they look awesome. I love them. Used to go to two or three a year for about 25 years but...
I watch the Nationals on tv, they look awesome. I love them. Used to go to two or three a year for about 25 years but got sick of the travel. Visited my first one in 1978 and then a lot after that until around 2005. I love the AMA circuits, but those circuits are made and cared for by families who treat their circuits like a newborn.

The two series are so different they could nearly be different sports, but both versions have awesome riders and special circuits.

If the small teams are struggling so much wouldn't the combined race make it easier for them? They don't have to go to the overseas races and they don't have riders running inside the top 15 anyway, so what is the problem??

The still get 14 GPs in the year and enough exposure for their sponsors.

It is nothing new that small teams struggle to make money from MX. Its been like day since day one in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

People just argue to argue sometimes.

Geoff
I don't think its great for a small team to miss rounds what happens if a rider is having a break through year and is getting top 5 then herlings gets hurt throwing the championship wide open but because he can't go to every round that rider has no chance and a big teams rider takes the title just because he has done all the races.Will loungo step in and help the team abit more to keep the best riders on the line for the spectators to see.I don't see that happening as we all know there are riders who want to do the gp's and are better than alot of the other riders doing them.EBB was proof of this last year couldn't do all the gp's but was always up in the top 10 when there even leading at times for a short period.
11/30/2012 10:38am
zooyork wrote:
Ever looked at the outdoor nationals Geoff? Organizing GPs in Mexico/Brasil/Thailand is the most stupid idea ever in these times of economic turndown unless YS would...
Ever looked at the outdoor nationals Geoff?

Organizing GPs in Mexico/Brasil/Thailand is the most stupid idea ever in these times of economic turndown unless YS would support every team (the small teams too!) to get there. Combining the MX2 and MX1... really?
I watch the Nationals on tv, they look awesome. I love them. Used to go to two or three a year for about 25 years but...
I watch the Nationals on tv, they look awesome. I love them. Used to go to two or three a year for about 25 years but got sick of the travel. Visited my first one in 1978 and then a lot after that until around 2005. I love the AMA circuits, but those circuits are made and cared for by families who treat their circuits like a newborn.

The two series are so different they could nearly be different sports, but both versions have awesome riders and special circuits.

If the small teams are struggling so much wouldn't the combined race make it easier for them? They don't have to go to the overseas races and they don't have riders running inside the top 15 anyway, so what is the problem??

The still get 14 GPs in the year and enough exposure for their sponsors.

It is nothing new that small teams struggle to make money from MX. Its been like day since day one in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

People just argue to argue sometimes.

Geoff
tns wrote:
I don't think its great for a small team to miss rounds what happens if a rider is having a break through year and is getting...
I don't think its great for a small team to miss rounds what happens if a rider is having a break through year and is getting top 5 then herlings gets hurt throwing the championship wide open but because he can't go to every round that rider has no chance and a big teams rider takes the title just because he has done all the races.Will loungo step in and help the team abit more to keep the best riders on the line for the spectators to see.I don't see that happening as we all know there are riders who want to do the gp's and are better than alot of the other riders doing them.EBB was proof of this last year couldn't do all the gp's but was always up in the top 10 when there even leading at times for a short period.
Take your point, but Musquin would be a better example, hahaha!! Small teams get to do 14 GPs, small teams can hardly afford to go to the 14, so not making them go to Qatar, Thailand, Mexico and Brazil seems like a favor to me. People complain it costs too much, then complain they can''t spend the money on going to these races.....
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol, GB
11/30/2012 10:46am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 10:51am
jamma10 wrote:
Kegums is also pretty much a sand track. The main thing is none of them resemble that track they built in Turkey in what, '09?
1-forty-8 wrote:
And the track where Osborn won, I think was '11 maybe.. I forget where, but that track was a joke. For me, when we had tracks...
And the track where Osborn won, I think was '11 maybe.. I forget where, but that track was a joke.

For me, when we had tracks like Namur and Foxhill, that was was the ultimate.. Maybe I'm just bitter those places were taken away from me lol Blush
No Turkey was 2009, also the same year that Mallory Park hosted the British GP. Donington was back in 2008.

I'd like to see a GP at Foxhill again too, but there is talk of a second British GP at Hawkstone next year which will be great if it happens!

Look at the Outdoor Nationals. In 2010 the series ended on a flat piece of ground out in the desert, now they end their season on a lake bed.

The odd flat'ish track is ok, as long as there is variety and I think there's enough variety in both championships at the moment.
FreshTopEnd
Posts
13339
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Sacramento, CA, USA
11/30/2012 10:51am
Take your point, but Musquin would be a better example, hahaha!! Small teams get to do 14 GPs, small teams can hardly afford to go to...
Take your point, but Musquin would be a better example, hahaha!! Small teams get to do 14 GPs, small teams can hardly afford to go to the 14, so not making them go to Qatar, Thailand, Mexico and Brazil seems like a favor to me. People complain it costs too much, then complain they can''t spend the money on going to these races.....
That's a miserly, ass backwards justification for the state of things.

I don't think the tracks are an issue. You could have a great track that costs a lot to get to, and a crappy track that's close.

The question that is begged here is why can't more afford to go, and what do the teams than can shoulder that cost get out of the trip that they wouldn't otherwise get if the series didn't require them to head to some pretty far-flung destinations? Is there a tangible benefit to them (beyond points for those rounds)?

I'm not disputing that it's a great aspiration to go abroad.
11/30/2012 11:21am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2012 11:23am
Take your point, but Musquin would be a better example, hahaha!! Small teams get to do 14 GPs, small teams can hardly afford to go to...
Take your point, but Musquin would be a better example, hahaha!! Small teams get to do 14 GPs, small teams can hardly afford to go to the 14, so not making them go to Qatar, Thailand, Mexico and Brazil seems like a favor to me. People complain it costs too much, then complain they can''t spend the money on going to these races.....
That's a miserly, ass backwards justification for the state of things. I don't think the tracks are an issue. You could have a great track that...
That's a miserly, ass backwards justification for the state of things.

I don't think the tracks are an issue. You could have a great track that costs a lot to get to, and a crappy track that's close.

The question that is begged here is why can't more afford to go, and what do the teams than can shoulder that cost get out of the trip that they wouldn't otherwise get if the series didn't require them to head to some pretty far-flung destinations? Is there a tangible benefit to them (beyond points for those rounds)?

I'm not disputing that it's a great aspiration to go abroad.
Points for the round, a possible World Championship. That is why the factories do it, for points and Championships. Teams have been going to Brazil, Asia, Australia, South Africa for years, why should the promoter pay for that, the teams are getting the benefit from support from sponsors to run the Championship. The promoters don't get the teams sponsors money. Nobody is pushing anyone to do anything here, they do it because they want to. So many of the smaller teams just want to be involved, businessmen with money or whatever. Nobody pushes these guys to do it ,they can also do their National championships. So what is the desire to do something that everyone says is crap? of course it isn't crap, otherwise these teams would do the smaller championships.

Post a reply to: Herlings on the MX1 and MX2 combo

The Latest