Will the 450Fs go the way of the 500 2strokes

bh84
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bh84 9/13/2012 3:21pm
9/13/2012 3:21pm
well looks like i hit the post button before i finished typing, damn laptop

the organizers put tons of water on teh track and for the next few motos the track is slick, then gets really nice, then dries out and becomes slick again, then gets watered. often if a lower class gets the track when its in good shape they post laptimes faster than the higher classes who ride when thetrack is slick.
Slow450
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Slow450 9/13/2012 3:31pm
9/13/2012 3:31pm
bh84 wrote:
track conditions people. the track changes moto to moto and lap to lap. THats what makes racing interesting, its never the same. if the best riders...
track conditions people. the track changes moto to moto and lap to lap. THats what makes racing interesting, its never the same. if the best riders were on 250s the ones who had just moved up i.e tickle, would lay a whooping on the big boys.

Its like in snowcross, the Semi-Pro guys run right after the track is groomed, then the pros go, the semi pros, especially the mods, tear up the track like crazy and that slows down the Pros, as a result the lap times are much closer than what they really should be. The reason i used a snowcross reference is that the change in the track is much more dramatic than in moto, but the principle is the same, although in the opposite way, the 450 riders get a pretty fresh track, not many ruts etc, the 250s then go out and ride the beautiful ruts the 450s made through the moto and as their moto continues the track improves more. when the second motos go out the track is much rougher and it slows down the lap times. the track is usually at its fastest during the 1st 250 and WMX motos.

you also have to consider the track grooming between motos, if the organizers make one mistake like too much water the 450s go out and ride in the wet dirt and by doing so dry it out. you see it every weekend at local events with 20+ classes. the
I started to read your reply, then I saw a quad in your profile and stopped. I hope 450s stay, because I can race on pump gas with zero motor mods and be competitive. That isn't the case with the 250s, especially if you are hovering around 200#.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 9/13/2012 5:20pm
9/13/2012 5:20pm
bh84 wrote:
track conditions people. the track changes moto to moto and lap to lap. THats what makes racing interesting, its never the same. if the best riders...
track conditions people. the track changes moto to moto and lap to lap. THats what makes racing interesting, its never the same. if the best riders were on 250s the ones who had just moved up i.e tickle, would lay a whooping on the big boys.

Its like in snowcross, the Semi-Pro guys run right after the track is groomed, then the pros go, the semi pros, especially the mods, tear up the track like crazy and that slows down the Pros, as a result the lap times are much closer than what they really should be. The reason i used a snowcross reference is that the change in the track is much more dramatic than in moto, but the principle is the same, although in the opposite way, the 450 riders get a pretty fresh track, not many ruts etc, the 250s then go out and ride the beautiful ruts the 450s made through the moto and as their moto continues the track improves more. when the second motos go out the track is much rougher and it slows down the lap times. the track is usually at its fastest during the 1st 250 and WMX motos.

you also have to consider the track grooming between motos, if the organizers make one mistake like too much water the 450s go out and ride in the wet dirt and by doing so dry it out. you see it every weekend at local events with 20+ classes. the
You bring up valid points on track prep but at Lake Elsonore both 250 motos ran in less overall time than the 450 class ahead of them. The first 250 moto was completed 8 seconds less, the second 250 moto was 10 seconds less. The 250's have been bettering the 450's like this often this year.

Reminds me of when the 500's went away. I didn't like the weight, power delivery and added expense of a big bore two stroke that was actually slower than the 250's I watched the pros race. I bought a 250, apparently so did most other young men. Sure the modern 450's are probably far more comfortable than the old 500's but it'll still boil down to what sells. If the motocross market won't suport the sales of the 450 they'll go away in pro racing as a racing class. They'll probably still be built but maybe with less focused development or cutting edge suspension components.
Lightning78
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Lightning78 9/13/2012 5:59pm
9/13/2012 5:59pm
Lifesarutt64 wrote:
With the 250Fs posting quicker times than the 450Fs at many tracks & some people attribute the high injury rate to them. Will the 450Fs be...
With the 250Fs posting quicker times than the 450Fs at many tracks & some people attribute the high injury rate to them. Will the 450Fs be relegated out of MX/SX compertition in the near future (3-5 years)
BR_HERO wrote:
Well the 350 wasn't enough and a 500 would be to much, so we wait for a manufacturer to put out a 400 cc and see...
Well the 350 wasn't enough and a 500 would be to much, so we wait for a manufacturer to put out a 400 cc and see how well it does in AMA racing and how the masses perceive it, if it flops the 450 stays, it it's a hit then yeah.....

I don't think the 450 is going anywhere man.
I think they will go away as well and agree with the original poster the 250's are getting all kinds of Technology infusion call the 450's cannot fully utilize the technology the 250's are getting because it would make them way too fast and unrideable all they're doing is trying to make a 450 lighter at this point there isn't much engine R&D going into the 450 and just like the 500 2 stroke it's exactly the same my opinion still stands that with the current technology there infusing into the 250's ..... A 350 would be the awesome or 4 stroke to race in the big bike class if ALL FIVE mfg's put the effort into a 350 that they like kawi and ktm are using to NOW get 40hp stock out of a 250f .... Mookie said his stock 13 felt like a modded '12 bike ...he didn't say it was faster then his race bike just that stock a '13 ktm 250f made a big leap. We ALL even the husky guys rode 250 2 strokes for at least 10 years when the 500's died out so it kind of feels like the same thing just a different era

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Lightning78
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Lightning78 9/13/2012 6:04pm
9/13/2012 6:04pm
OldYZRider1 wrote:
You bring up valid points on track prep but at Lake Elsonore both 250 motos ran in less overall time than the 450 class ahead of...
You bring up valid points on track prep but at Lake Elsonore both 250 motos ran in less overall time than the 450 class ahead of them. The first 250 moto was completed 8 seconds less, the second 250 moto was 10 seconds less. The 250's have been bettering the 450's like this often this year.

Reminds me of when the 500's went away. I didn't like the weight, power delivery and added expense of a big bore two stroke that was actually slower than the 250's I watched the pros race. I bought a 250, apparently so did most other young men. Sure the modern 450's are probably far more comfortable than the old 500's but it'll still boil down to what sells. If the motocross market won't suport the sales of the 450 they'll go away in pro racing as a racing class. They'll probably still be built but maybe with less focused development or cutting edge suspension components.
Exactly...... I'm seeing a lit of people in the thread about mxa's 2013 hp #'s the '13 ktm250f makes 43hp stock???? There were more than a few guys saying they were gonna dump their 450's for a 250f since they are now sooo close to a 250 2 stroke and A LOT easier to bend around a track than an extremely heavy (not just weight but inertia wise) 450
dizzy8085
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dizzy8085 9/13/2012 6:41pm
9/13/2012 6:41pm
Nothing to see here guys. The manufactures have given up on 450's since they are going the way of the dinosaur in 3 to 5 years according to this thread.

Definitely not a bike with a fresh frame, plastics, swimg arm, forks, ect......

chrisbuehler
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chrisbuehler 9/13/2012 7:00pm
9/13/2012 7:00pm
Lifesarutt64 wrote:
I'm not really trying to compare them. Just asking the question if in the future 250Fs, or a lower capacity than 450cc, will be the premier...
I'm not really trying to compare them. Just asking the question if in the future 250Fs, or a lower capacity than 450cc, will be the premier class in SX/MX racing.
If the 250Fs are doing faster lap times then maybe we should have the best riders on them.
The AMA Lites were a lot more entertaining this past season.
The top 5 in the 250 class was def laying it down this year but if RV, Reed, and Canard were out there you would see some really fast laps. Look at Steel City last year when RD and Villo were pushing each other. Their times blew the 250 class winner, Wilson, off the map. The 450's are for the men. I gaurauntee if you asked any of the top guys they would tell you they love their to-fiddy's. Massive yet rideable power, agile, able to jump anything. Yeah they want to go back down to 250f's lol.
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jmar 9/13/2012 8:37pm
9/13/2012 8:37pm
The cost of keeping a top 250f going is way to high.

For now, the 450s are here to stay.
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dizzy8085 9/13/2012 8:48pm
9/13/2012 8:48pm
jmar wrote:
The cost of keeping a top 250f going is way to high.

For now, the 450s are here to stay.
Exactly. 90% of privateers running on their own dime choose the 450. A 450 with a pipe and suspension is competitive. A 250 with a pipe isn't.
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chrisbuehler 9/13/2012 9:13pm
9/13/2012 9:13pm
dizzy8085 wrote:
Exactly. 90% of privateers running on their own dime choose the 450. A 450 with a pipe and suspension is competitive. A 250 with a pipe...
Exactly. 90% of privateers running on their own dime choose the 450. A 450 with a pipe and suspension is competitive. A 250 with a pipe isn't.
Great point and I agree. With the 450 you ship out the suspension and throw a pipe on it and it's ready for a National. You want to be competitive against the top teams on a 250f you have drop 15K into it. As much as the 2-stroke lover's want it to happen, the 450 aren't going anywhere. And unless they change the displacement rule, the stroker's aren't coming back. To professional moto that is
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dizzy8085 9/13/2012 9:21pm
9/13/2012 9:21pm Edited Date/Time 9/13/2012 9:22pm
dizzy8085 wrote:
Exactly. 90% of privateers running on their own dime choose the 450. A 450 with a pipe and suspension is competitive. A 250 with a pipe...
Exactly. 90% of privateers running on their own dime choose the 450. A 450 with a pipe and suspension is competitive. A 250 with a pipe isn't.
chrisbuehler wrote:
Great point and I agree. With the 450 you ship out the suspension and throw a pipe on it and it's ready for a National. You...
Great point and I agree. With the 450 you ship out the suspension and throw a pipe on it and it's ready for a National. You want to be competitive against the top teams on a 250f you have drop 15K into it. As much as the 2-stroke lover's want it to happen, the 450 aren't going anywhere. And unless they change the displacement rule, the stroker's aren't coming back. To professional moto that is
Exactly. Not only do you have to spend 15k on the 250f. It will only last a couple races at that level. The 450's will go all season.

Derek Anderson almost got the holeshot 1st moto at elsinore on his bike. I'm pretty sure it's fairly stock sans the pipe.

Phil nicoletti got I think a 6th overall on a honda 450 with suspension, pipe, and if I remember correctly a little head work. The bike had stock graphics haha.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 9/13/2012 10:15pm
9/13/2012 10:15pm
jmar wrote:
The cost of keeping a top 250f going is way to high.

For now, the 450s are here to stay.
So, you're saying the 250's are the Premier Class?

Not only are the 250's running faster times, but privateers & riders coming up find the 450's more appealing due to their lower operating cost.

Something about that should tell you the classes are fucked up.
dizzy8085
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dizzy8085 9/13/2012 10:21pm
9/13/2012 10:21pm
jmar wrote:
The cost of keeping a top 250f going is way to high.

For now, the 450s are here to stay.
Faceaz wrote:
So, you're saying the 250's are the Premier Class? Not only are the 250's running faster times, but privateers & riders coming up find the 450's...
So, you're saying the 250's are the Premier Class?

Not only are the 250's running faster times, but privateers & riders coming up find the 450's more appealing due to their lower operating cost.

Something about that should tell you the classes are fucked up.
The 250f's are running faster times because of the riders riding them.

You can't compare lap times of different riders, against different competition, and on the track at different times. It's apples to oranges.

You put baggett, barcia, and tomac on 450's and let them race against dungey, reed, and villapoto. No one will be putting close to those lap times on a 250f.

You take all those guys, stick them on 250f's and no one will be putting the same lap times in on 450's.

It is the rider!
Faceaz
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Faceaz 9/14/2012 6:36am
9/14/2012 6:36am
jmar wrote:
The cost of keeping a top 250f going is way to high.

For now, the 450s are here to stay.
Faceaz wrote:
So, you're saying the 250's are the Premier Class? Not only are the 250's running faster times, but privateers & riders coming up find the 450's...
So, you're saying the 250's are the Premier Class?

Not only are the 250's running faster times, but privateers & riders coming up find the 450's more appealing due to their lower operating cost.

Something about that should tell you the classes are fucked up.
dizzy8085 wrote:
The 250f's are running faster times because of the riders riding them. You can't compare lap times of different riders, against different competition, and on the...
The 250f's are running faster times because of the riders riding them.

You can't compare lap times of different riders, against different competition, and on the track at different times. It's apples to oranges.

You put baggett, barcia, and tomac on 450's and let them race against dungey, reed, and villapoto. No one will be putting close to those lap times on a 250f.

You take all those guys, stick them on 250f's and no one will be putting the same lap times in on 450's.

It is the rider!
Yet another reason 250's are the premier class, now we have:

- operating cost of the 250s is higher, making 450s more apealing to privateers.
- 250s are running faster times.
- the faster riders are riding the 250 class.
- how about the fact 250s now follow the 450 races. Its kind of like putting the opening band after the main act.

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