Public employee unions

borg
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Edited Date/Time 9/13/2012 9:07pm
I don't think they should be allowed and this is one of the main reasons.

Teachers strike

I remember when the bus mechanics went on strike here. The drivers honored the strike and millions of people were stranded for weeks. Many lost their jobs because they had no way to get to work, Now parents are scrambling in Chicago to find day care for their kids.

Public monopoly employees should not be able to strike. It's fucked up.
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72kiteboarder
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9/10/2012 6:55pm
Yeah, lets let the special interests and government decide what we are worth!
9/10/2012 7:48pm
I thought Rahm was their bitch??
9/11/2012 10:29am
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not allowed to strike. The union is there to negotiate contracts with the city and to make sure the rules of that contract are being followed.

I do believe public employees should not be allowed to STRIKE.
vet323
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9/11/2012 10:34am
Yeah, lets let the special interests and government decide what we are worth!
"Special interests", like what? Unions?

The Shop

TeamGreen
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9/11/2012 3:48pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2012 3:48pm
Biting the hand that they paid for.

Classic!
Skip376
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9/11/2012 4:42pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2012 4:46pm
I don't disagree with the teachers that standardized tests only show the social background of students so I can't say these teachers are wrong to be doing this. As of now high school is simply a holding cell until college anyway so it won't do to much harm.
APLMAN99
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9/11/2012 4:46pm
blankplate wrote:
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not...
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not allowed to strike. The union is there to negotiate contracts with the city and to make sure the rules of that contract are being followed.

I do believe public employees should not be allowed to STRIKE.
I've always wondered, why have a union without the ability to strike? What leverage would the union or it's members have to negotiate?
Skip376
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9/11/2012 4:49pm
blankplate wrote:
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not...
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not allowed to strike. The union is there to negotiate contracts with the city and to make sure the rules of that contract are being followed.

I do believe public employees should not be allowed to STRIKE.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I've always wondered, why have a union without the ability to strike? What leverage would the union or it's members have to negotiate?
Glad I'm not the only one that felt this way.

Seems if you can't strike your simply paying for a union fat cat to get rich.
Brad460
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9/11/2012 6:42pm
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers...

Why the fuck do unions exist in the government?! To protect them against tax payers and to get more tax payer money!? That's fucked up...

Worse yet, tax payer money (forced union dues) are used to elect officials who then negotiate for more tax payer money..it's like two wolves and a sheep voting nightly on dinner...its always lamb chops.
72kiteboarder
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9/11/2012 7:34pm
Brad460 wrote:
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers... Why the...
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers...

Why the fuck do unions exist in the government?! To protect them against tax payers and to get more tax payer money!? That's fucked up...

Worse yet, tax payer money (forced union dues) are used to elect officials who then negotiate for more tax payer money..it's like two wolves and a sheep voting nightly on dinner...its always lamb chops.
Exactly! Anyone stupid enough to do a "government" job deserves what ever they get and maybe a little less than they get!
Skip376
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9/11/2012 8:55pm
I'll bet everyone will tackle why unions exist and ignore why they're striking.
Skip376
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9/11/2012 9:00pm
Brad460 wrote:
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers... Why the...
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers...

Why the fuck do unions exist in the government?! To protect them against tax payers and to get more tax payer money!? That's fucked up...

Worse yet, tax payer money (forced union dues) are used to elect officials who then negotiate for more tax payer money..it's like two wolves and a sheep voting nightly on dinner...its always lamb chops.
Exactly! Anyone stupid enough to do a "government" job deserves what ever they get and maybe a little less than they get!
And yet people like you will expect teachers to get the next generation ready for college etc....
72kiteboarder
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9/11/2012 9:00pm
How about the fact that the employers have ignored the employees needs for so long and to such a degree that teachers, people who have dedicated their lives to helping children learn and grow, have decided to go on strike.

How fucked up are the employers?
72kiteboarder
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9/11/2012 9:02pm
Skip376 wrote:
And yet people like you will expect teachers to get the next generation ready for college etc....
Sarcasm, look it up.
Skip376
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9/11/2012 9:26pm Edited Date/Time 9/11/2012 9:32pm
Skip376 wrote:
And yet people like you will expect teachers to get the next generation ready for college etc....
Sarcasm, look it up.
Maybe I missed the sarcasim in your post but I understand the philosophical meaning of sarcasim in a discussion. Try to look that up because I highly doubt it is mediated online in any sort.

I think you and I have the same idea about this strike being good and for the same reason and I probably have an entire different political view as you. I'm glad they'res at least one sane person looking at this problem.

It's about time teachers/anyone decided to stick up for the youth of society and it amazes me that anyone could comprehend this as bad while the school system fails children in every way possible. Think of the amount of information professors could teach if we didn't require high school teachers to sensor something as simple as history....
Brad460
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9/12/2012 4:14am Edited Date/Time 9/12/2012 4:15am
Brad460 wrote:
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers... Why the...
The main reasons Unions were created was to help the worker get more of the profits they helped create and to protect the workers...

Why the fuck do unions exist in the government?! To protect them against tax payers and to get more tax payer money!? That's fucked up...

Worse yet, tax payer money (forced union dues) are used to elect officials who then negotiate for more tax payer money..it's like two wolves and a sheep voting nightly on dinner...its always lamb chops.
Exactly! Anyone stupid enough to do a "government" job deserves what ever they get and maybe a little less than they get!
Skip376 wrote:
And yet people like you will expect teachers to get the next generation ready for college etc....
Actually no, I would prefer a group of teachers who's priority are the students and are paid based on their skills..highly paid if they are good..something a union will never provide...which is good education..they are only focused on power..

Lets be honest the ONLY reason to be in favor of public unions is for the power..those of you defending them only do it as it bring democrat voters to the booths..aka.pushing the liberal agenda..wake up, they are destroying America...our education system is on the decline!!
vet323
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9/12/2012 7:12am
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
P
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9/12/2012 7:17am
From the little that I heard they went on strike when they really didn't have to. Also, I don't think that with this economic and political climate now is the time to strike.

Either way, people always yell that teachers and policemen don't get paid enough, but when they try to get more pay and/or benefits the same people say that they get too much.


P
APLMAN99
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9/12/2012 9:05am
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
vet323
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9/12/2012 10:48am
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
Again:

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99
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9/12/2012 11:12am
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
vet323 wrote:
Again:

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
You asked if they were rigged, which had an impication that they should be used for something similar to teacher assessment. I pointed out why that is silly.

I don't believe there is a solid, objective test available to evaluate teacher performance. I think that's the point. Trying to evaluate a teacher's performance on a test most probably has no validity. It makes for a good populist cliche from the likes of Limbaugh and such, but there just isn't a good enough tool to put into use, especially when you are talking about firing someone from their career after so much time and effort is put into it.
vet323
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9/12/2012 12:49pm
I seem to recall our State Education Secretary recently talking about how our Governor is looking to cut education funds (they call it a "cut", it's actually an increase, just smaller than they were expecting). She made a big deal out of showing how well our kids were doing in relation to kids in the other states, despite our cost/student being low.

This was shown to be an example of teachers and educators doing a great job while not being compensated properly. What you are telling me is that, even though the comparisons are not valid (in your view), even if they were valid, it would be because of our parents and families, not our teachers (since teachers are a constant, but students and family environments are variable).

So, I guess to take the teachers at their word, we should lower the budgets and teacher payroll of the schools that have good results on standardized tests and give those (good) parents a tax break, since those results aren't the result of good teaching, but good parenting?

Or maybe you could come up with some other way of evaluating teacher/school performance (I know you don't like the tests, I asked what you would do, not what you wouldn't do.)
vet323
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9/12/2012 12:53pm
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
Also, those variables among students are statistically constant in an individual school. Each teacher in a school has the same or similar mix of competent/incompetent students.
APLMAN99
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9/12/2012 12:57pm
vet323 wrote:
I seem to recall our State Education Secretary recently talking about how our Governor is looking to cut education funds (they call it a "cut", it's...
I seem to recall our State Education Secretary recently talking about how our Governor is looking to cut education funds (they call it a "cut", it's actually an increase, just smaller than they were expecting). She made a big deal out of showing how well our kids were doing in relation to kids in the other states, despite our cost/student being low.

This was shown to be an example of teachers and educators doing a great job while not being compensated properly. What you are telling me is that, even though the comparisons are not valid (in your view), even if they were valid, it would be because of our parents and families, not our teachers (since teachers are a constant, but students and family environments are variable).

So, I guess to take the teachers at their word, we should lower the budgets and teacher payroll of the schools that have good results on standardized tests and give those (good) parents a tax break, since those results aren't the result of good teaching, but good parenting?

Or maybe you could come up with some other way of evaluating teacher/school performance (I know you don't like the tests, I asked what you would do, not what you wouldn't do.)
You are completely misstating my view........

The higher test scores can come from a variety of reasons. It is impossible to say what all the reasons may be. I can't agree with your governor or whoever it is that is giving alll the success to teachers, just as I can't agree with placing all the blame on teachers. But judging a teacher strictly on the standardized scores of their students IS placing all of the blame on the teacher, without taking any of the other multitude of factors into account.

And I don't have a good way to evaluate teachers. But that doesn't mean we should implement a terrible way to do it instead......
APLMAN99
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9/12/2012 1:03pm
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
vet323 wrote:
Also, those variables among students are statistically constant in an individual school. Each teacher in a school has the same or similar mix of competent/incompetent students.
That's not even remotely true in most cases. I am positive that the teacher who teaches my son's AP Calculus class has a student mix that will score much higher on standardized testing than the teacher who teaches basic algebra. Same with the teacher who primarily teaches Honors English versus standard English or the teacher who teaches Physical Science versus the Chemistry teacher.

There are 14 math teachers at my kids' high school. I guarantee you they don't all have the same mix of kids.
Skip376
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9/12/2012 3:14pm Edited Date/Time 9/12/2012 3:17pm
vet323 wrote:
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools? Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee...
So, are standardized tests only bad if they are in public schools?

Are the standardized tests used for college placement and the ASVAB and public employee tests all rigged, too?

What way would you guys use to guage education success or failure?
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
vet323 wrote:
Also, those variables among students are statistically constant in an individual school. Each teacher in a school has the same or similar mix of competent/incompetent students.
So AP teachers have the same amount of incompetent students as those teaching disabled students? That's an extreme to prove my point, but judging a teacher based off a standardized test makes teachers only teach for one test and does not adequately prepare students for higher level education. This is proven without a doubt when you look at the number of students entering remedial classes. 6 out of 10 students entering community college will be placed in remedial classes to be taught what teachers should've already taught them and 4 out of 10 students entering a normal college will fall into remedial classes.

Drives me nuts when people think schools are doing a good job by teaching kids how to pass a crummy standardized test that has no relevance after high school. It's sad to me that the government has tied these teachers hands like they have.

I
9/13/2012 9:24am
blankplate wrote:
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not...
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not allowed to strike. The union is there to negotiate contracts with the city and to make sure the rules of that contract are being followed.

I do believe public employees should not be allowed to STRIKE.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I've always wondered, why have a union without the ability to strike? What leverage would the union or it's members have to negotiate?
Skip376 wrote:
Glad I'm not the only one that felt this way. Seems if you can't strike your simply paying for a union fat cat to get rich...
Glad I'm not the only one that felt this way.

Seems if you can't strike your simply paying for a union fat cat to get rich.
I thought the same thing before I started working for this particular city, which is also in a right to work state. I've never been a big proponent of unions before and still feel that way ( I had to hold my nose when I signed). But I was pleasantly surprised by this one. I sat in on a contract meeting between the city manager and the union and got to watch the negotiation first hand. It was pretty civil and by the end everyone was satisfied. I didn't feel the union was there to make ridiculous demands and the city manager explained what could and could not be accomplished with the present budget.

The leverage isn't the STRIKE in this particular case; it's the ability of the city manager to prepare a satisfactory budget for the city and renewing a satisfactory contract with the different departments. His job depends on it.

And as far as paying a union "Fat Cat", my union president is also my Captain. I work with him every shift. Trust me...he aint getting rich being the prez. and he is a conservative like myself.

Now, the IAFF (International Association of Fire Fighters)...that's a different story. I don't send them my money because I dont want that money to go to Obama.

Again, public employees should NOT be allowed to STRIKE.
BUTCH
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9/13/2012 9:53am
How about the fact that the employers have ignored the employees needs for so long and to such a degree that teachers, people who have dedicated...
How about the fact that the employers have ignored the employees needs for so long and to such a degree that teachers, people who have dedicated their lives to helping children learn and grow, have decided to go on strike.

How fucked up are the employers?
TAA DAA! BINGO!
BUTCH
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9/13/2012 9:56am
blankplate wrote:
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not...
Being part of a union and going on strike are 2 different things. I am part of my local fire fighter's union but we are not allowed to strike. The union is there to negotiate contracts with the city and to make sure the rules of that contract are being followed.

I do believe public employees should not be allowed to STRIKE.
APLMAN99 wrote:
I've always wondered, why have a union without the ability to strike? What leverage would the union or it's members have to negotiate?
TAA DAA!.... BINGO!
vet323
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9/13/2012 11:37am
APLMAN99 wrote:
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach. If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the...
Those tests reflect an individuals ability, not someone else's ability to teach.

If those types of tests were a true reflection of the ability of the teacher, every one of their students would score pretty close to the same on them. Obviously that doesn't happen.
vet323 wrote:
Also, those variables among students are statistically constant in an individual school. Each teacher in a school has the same or similar mix of competent/incompetent students.
Skip376 wrote:
So AP teachers have the same amount of incompetent students as those teaching disabled students? That's an extreme to prove my point, but judging a teacher...
So AP teachers have the same amount of incompetent students as those teaching disabled students? That's an extreme to prove my point, but judging a teacher based off a standardized test makes teachers only teach for one test and does not adequately prepare students for higher level education. This is proven without a doubt when you look at the number of students entering remedial classes. 6 out of 10 students entering community college will be placed in remedial classes to be taught what teachers should've already taught them and 4 out of 10 students entering a normal college will fall into remedial classes.

Drives me nuts when people think schools are doing a good job by teaching kids how to pass a crummy standardized test that has no relevance after high school. It's sad to me that the government has tied these teachers hands like they have.

I
I'm awaiting you suggestions for evaluating teachers, rewarding the good and eliminating/retraining the bad. Tell me how it should be done-APLMAN doesn't think it can be done, how about you?

The teachers themselves use standardized tests to evaluate their own students, isn't that a bit unfair and or racist?

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