Have neck braces reduced spinal injuries?

GuyB
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GuyB 9/4/2012 12:10am
9/4/2012 12:10am
MBR wrote:
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7...
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7. However in the US top pros that have lately had spine injuries most of them haven't used neck brace (although there are both C & T injuries and neck brace is designed only to protect from C injuries) .

No neck brace:
- Reed
- Zach Bell
- Rattray
- Morais
- Hahn

Neck brace:
- Canard (but getting landed by YZF450 and broke only T10&T11 from lower back, I don't think you can blame the neck brace?)

Please add or correct if something is wrong or missing?
Most common fracture? I'd guess collarbones or wrists.
MBR
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MBR 9/4/2012 1:21am
9/4/2012 1:21am
Sorry, I meant of spinal injuries.
The Captain
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The Captain 9/4/2012 3:03am
9/4/2012 3:03am
I broke my back 5 1/2 years ago. Compression fracture, t-7 to be exact. After doing extensive research I found a couple companies who made a back protector that prevented hyperextension. They were designed for street bikes and after trying them on I didn't believe that they would have saved me in my particular crash. This was around the time that Leatt started getting big, so I decided to buy one. I have been riding with it ever since and feel confident that it will protect me. I don't even notice it's there. I have taken numerous falls over the years and haven't had any broken collar bones. *knock on wood*
RobKacp
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RobKacp 9/4/2012 6:42am
9/4/2012 6:42am
The difficulty here is the data is going to be hypothetical based on models of injury until someone does a longitudinal observational study.

Having done a bit of research in the past, its going to take a lot of money and manpower to basically follow two groups of people - those who wear neck braces, and those who don't, for a long period to get any statistically useful data.

Further complicating the picture: My initial suspicion is the rate of injury (spinal cord injuries), is so small that it would be virtually impossible to get enough sample size (people) to detect a difference in the injury rate between the two groups. You would literally need to follow thousands of people for 10-20 years to know if there was a real-world difference in the spinal cord injury rate. Not gonna happen when the product in question costs all of 300 dollars.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of statistics will correct me, but....

My conclusion? The models seem to predict some benefit but will we ever really know? Unlikely. If you believe the models, wear one. If you don't, don't Smile

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UpTiTe 9/4/2012 7:21am
9/4/2012 7:21am
I have no idea if they truely work as advertised. What I do know is that there are two autopsy claiming they were the reason for brain trauma because the energy that would have gone through the back rattled the brain instead.
GIwasB4
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GIwasB4 9/4/2012 7:49am
9/4/2012 7:49am
MBR wrote:
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7...
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7. However in the US top pros that have lately had spine injuries most of them haven't used neck brace (although there are both C & T injuries and neck brace is designed only to protect from C injuries) .

No neck brace:
- Reed
- Zach Bell
- Rattray
- Morais
- Hahn

Neck brace:
- Canard (but getting landed by YZF450 and broke only T10&T11 from lower back, I don't think you can blame the neck brace?)

Please add or correct if something is wrong or missing?
This past weekend was my 1st national attended in a few years. I noticed very few neck braces compared to previous seasons. My thought was the companies are not paying the top riders to wear/endorse them?
RobKacp
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RobKacp 9/4/2012 8:50am
9/4/2012 8:50am Edited Date/Time 9/4/2012 9:02am
Theoretically, perhaps. Neck braces in a hyperextension injury (neck whips back) are designed to transfer the force to the thoracic strut(s) to allow the force to be distributed through to the thorax and t-spine.

However, in the injury models used in Leatt's white paper, the forces transmitted through the t-spine were not significantly different between "with brace" and "without brace" and theoretically would be lower because some of the force would be absorbed by the strut as well as distributed to the thoracic spinal muscles.

Further, in the models, the strut reduces the bending moment on the thoracic spine (since the most common injury is at T6/T7 when the T-spine bends like a stick) and give-way before the spine does by absorbing the bending energy and fracturing the strut...kind of like the way a helmet is designed to break in a fashion that protects your melon.
Crisp BRAAAP! 9/4/2012 9:49am
9/4/2012 9:49am
RobKacp wrote:
The difficulty here is the data is going to be hypothetical based on models of injury until someone does a longitudinal observational study. Having done a...
The difficulty here is the data is going to be hypothetical based on models of injury until someone does a longitudinal observational study.

Having done a bit of research in the past, its going to take a lot of money and manpower to basically follow two groups of people - those who wear neck braces, and those who don't, for a long period to get any statistically useful data.

Further complicating the picture: My initial suspicion is the rate of injury (spinal cord injuries), is so small that it would be virtually impossible to get enough sample size (people) to detect a difference in the injury rate between the two groups. You would literally need to follow thousands of people for 10-20 years to know if there was a real-world difference in the spinal cord injury rate. Not gonna happen when the product in question costs all of 300 dollars.

Maybe someone with more knowledge of statistics will correct me, but....

My conclusion? The models seem to predict some benefit but will we ever really know? Unlikely. If you believe the models, wear one. If you don't, don't Smile
Exactly. As a scientist, this is exactly the problem that we are all faced with right now. I'd agree with your conclusion too.

Even just limiting yourself to the pros makes it complicated as uk125250 has done above. Only Canard was injured with the neckbrace on, but perhaps many fewer people wear the braces. Therefore, you'd expect to see less injury even if the brace did nothing. So you'd have to control for the number of riders wearing the brace. And even then, the sample size is simply too small to produce reliable results, not to mention that the samples could be skewed (for example, younger riders wear the brace while the elders do not).
brimx153
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brimx153 9/4/2012 10:03am
9/4/2012 10:03am
UpTiTe wrote:
I have no idea if they truely work as advertised. What I do know is that there are two autopsy claiming they were the reason for...
I have no idea if they truely work as advertised. What I do know is that there are two autopsy claiming they were the reason for brain trauma because the energy that would have gone through the back rattled the brain instead.
totally agree with this ,ive seen so many people getting concusions , were i race , from very small little crashes , that definitely would not cause any neck injury , i think the big problem with them is , i am very broad and muscular , with a sort neck , so when i tryed a neck brace i had very limited movement , i had a few falls , and had pain in my neck a few time s , and rather than going god only for this brace , id be in trouble , i know if i was nt wearing the brace i would not hav a sore neck , they were never falls that would hurt my neck normally , i think if you have a long neck like Marv M , then maybe they might work but i think when it limit s ur movement of ur head to much its a real bad thing ,
DrSweden
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 10:44am
9/4/2012 10:44am
MDMCG wrote:
What's interesting is the sudden rise of thoracic level fractures in riders that are wearing these braces. There's very little evidence to support these braces and...
What's interesting is the sudden rise of thoracic level fractures in riders that are wearing these braces. There's very little evidence to support these braces and there's even less true medical evidence to support their use. Lab and engineering tests are completely different than what happens in the real world with real victims.
Say what? "Sudden rise"? Link to study to confirm your claim, or feel free to land in the "my best friends buddy say, category".
RobKacp
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RobKacp 9/4/2012 10:55am
9/4/2012 10:55am
Totally off-topic, but Dr. Sweden, you are the man (from his website): The idea combines my interests in psychiatry and illustration. But the main purpose was self-therapy/distraction to stay sane, during the “extreme task” to take care of a toddler 24/7 (in support of my wife’s career). It’s not easy when you used to be a self-centered prick.

I can relate!
DrSweden
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 11:07am
9/4/2012 11:07am Edited Date/Time 9/4/2012 1:52pm
There's tons of good threads on this forum, that talk about this subject. For those that missed the interview with Mr Leatt himself (on DMXS), Dr Leatt interview on DMXS

The thread talking about the interview

Like me, some of you will hear good enough arguments to wear one and feel "safe", while those who don't feel as safe can feel free to skip it and lean against the lack of info.

Important questions are:

1. Can it prevent what it say it prevents (cervical injuries)? No, studies will show the truth.
2. Can it induce injuries? No, studies will show the truth.
3. Most importantly right now. Are they serious in their attempt? Have they made good enough lab-testing before sending the product out to the masses? I feel yes they have.

I wear mine to death (hopefully not necessary), until studies shows them/me wrong. I dig the ambition to attempt reducing spine injuries, and feel an urge to support a gadget that make sense both on paper and in lab.

I can feel at least I made what was possible, right or wrong...
machine
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machine 9/4/2012 1:21pm
9/4/2012 1:21pm
machine wrote:
Early this year I came within a few degrees of forward neck roll from being in a wheel chair. I wear one now and it gives...
Early this year I came within a few degrees of forward neck roll from being in a wheel chair. I wear one now and it gives me a sense of being protected, similar to wearing a seat belt.I feel naked without it now.
chrisbuehler wrote:
I know the feeling. I was instantly comfortable with the Leatt on and it makes me feel safer. It's a dangerous sport we love and no...
I know the feeling. I was instantly comfortable with the Leatt on and it makes me feel safer. It's a dangerous sport we love and no piece of safety equipment is perfect. What brand you wearing Machine?
Same one RV wears of course....Alpinestars bionic...;o)
DrSweden
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 1:45pm
9/4/2012 1:45pm
We have a diff system than yours, but to translate... I graduated medschool 3 years ago, but right now I'm just a feeble little intern starting his fellowship in a few months. Tnx for the interest, and if you don't mind, why you do you ask?
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 1:46pm
9/4/2012 1:46pm Edited Date/Time 9/4/2012 1:47pm
RobKacp wrote:
Totally off-topic, but Dr. Sweden, you are the man (from his website): The idea combines my interests in psychiatry and illustration. But the main purpose was...
Totally off-topic, but Dr. Sweden, you are the man (from his website): The idea combines my interests in psychiatry and illustration. But the main purpose was self-therapy/distraction to stay sane, during the “extreme task” to take care of a toddler 24/7 (in support of my wife’s career). It’s not easy when you used to be a self-centered prick.

I can relate!
Wink And good for you!
mom241
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mom241 9/4/2012 2:26pm
9/4/2012 2:26pm
MDMCG wrote:
What's interesting is the sudden rise of thoracic level fractures in riders that are wearing these braces. There's very little evidence to support these braces and...
What's interesting is the sudden rise of thoracic level fractures in riders that are wearing these braces. There's very little evidence to support these braces and there's even less true medical evidence to support their use. Lab and engineering tests are completely different than what happens in the real world with real victims.
MBR wrote:
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7...
I have to disagree. Thoracic level fractures are any ways the most common spinal injuries in motorcycling since there is biggest curve on spine around T7. However in the US top pros that have lately had spine injuries most of them haven't used neck brace (although there are both C & T injuries and neck brace is designed only to protect from C injuries) .

No neck brace:
- Reed
- Zach Bell
- Rattray
- Morais
- Hahn

Neck brace:
- Canard (but getting landed by YZF450 and broke only T10&T11 from lower back, I don't think you can blame the neck brace?)

Please add or correct if something is wrong or missing?
The brunt of the force was directly on Trey's neck brace. The only thing that injured his back is the rear tire. The picture of the incident clearly shows this. Trey would be a) a quad, b) a vegetable, or c) dead.
CamP
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CamP 9/4/2012 2:56pm
9/4/2012 2:56pm
mom241 wrote:
The brunt of the force was directly on Trey's neck brace. The only thing that injured his back is the rear tire. The picture of the...
The brunt of the force was directly on Trey's neck brace. The only thing that injured his back is the rear tire. The picture of the incident clearly shows this. Trey would be a) a quad, b) a vegetable, or c) dead.
I can only imagine how bad the outcome would have been if Trey was one of those posh pros that think that racing with just a t-shirt is a good idea.
Tracktor
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Tracktor 9/4/2012 3:07pm
9/4/2012 3:07pm
I know this is more hearsay but my kid was involved in a pretty gnarly wreck last week with two other riders. Both him(428) and his buddy(572) were wearing 2ndMoto bull riding style vests & neck braces. He also wears a mouth guard, FWIW. The third kid(28) had on no other protection besides jersey, helmet boots, etc. Two riders got up and raced & one did not. We will stick with the gear for now, thanks.................... https://youtu.be/f7k55m3fO58

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DrSweden
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 3:16pm
9/4/2012 3:16pm
Tnx, and I agree. For some it seems to work rather easy, for me not the case. Angry Then came internship... Holy crap. Shocked I see a light in the end of the tunnel though!Grinning
DrSweden
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DrSweden 9/4/2012 3:22pm
9/4/2012 3:22pm
Tracktor wrote:
I know this is more hearsay but my kid was involved in a pretty gnarly wreck last week with two other riders. Both him(428) and his...
I know this is more hearsay but my kid was involved in a pretty gnarly wreck last week with two other riders. Both him(428) and his buddy(572) were wearing 2ndMoto bull riding style vests & neck braces. He also wears a mouth guard, FWIW. The third kid(28) had on no other protection besides jersey, helmet boots, etc. Two riders got up and raced & one did not. We will stick with the gear for now, thanks.................... https://youtu.be/f7k55m3fO58
Damn. I hope the kid is ok? See his unprotected back land like that makes me uneasy. His dad needs someone hitting him in the head with a shovel, at least once or twice, or maybe many times in a row, or once a day? Can figure it out, someone needs to hit him in the head though. This is close to neglect(?)...
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Torco1 9/4/2012 3:28pm
9/4/2012 3:28pm
I broke my T7 while not wearing a neck brace. I also broke my collarbone, shoulder, sternum, multiple ribs and collapsed both lungs at the same time as the broken back. I feel that if I did have a neck brace on when that happened it might've been even worse because of the force of the neck brace being applied to my body. That's the problem with them, who knows what is going to happen in certain instances? It might save you one day, but hurt you the next. With that said, I do wear one now because I personally feel that they do protect the neck and I'm willing to sacrifice a collarbone to possibly save my neck.
Tracktor
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Tracktor 9/4/2012 4:44pm
9/4/2012 4:44pm
Dr Sweden, I don't know. He did get up by the end of the moto. They aren't locals so no one I asked knew them. The kid was a bit of a squirrel and I had told my boy to stay away from him in practice. I really hope he wasn't hurt too bad. I know he didn't ride second moto. I agree that it's stupid not to protect your kid as best you can but many, many kids see th epros rid with no gear and want to emulate that behavior. MX is white-trash enough that "looking cool" comes before protection.........
machine
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machine 9/4/2012 5:23pm
9/4/2012 5:23pm
mom241 wrote:
The brunt of the force was directly on Trey's neck brace. The only thing that injured his back is the rear tire. The picture of the...
The brunt of the force was directly on Trey's neck brace. The only thing that injured his back is the rear tire. The picture of the incident clearly shows this. Trey would be a) a quad, b) a vegetable, or c) dead.
there you have it folks, that's all I needed to hear, to reinforce my opinion on the topic.
mjskier
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mjskier 9/4/2012 8:03pm
9/4/2012 8:03pm
machine wrote:
there you have it folks, that's all I needed to hear, to reinforce my opinion on the topic.
The ironic part is that the brace isn't designed to protect you from a linkage landing on your neck.

Not that am criticizing the brace. I wear mine when I ride.
What I'd like to see available is a brace compatible chest protector with a spine protector (like the one Ken Roczen put together) Extra credit if it is comfortable.

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