Lance Armstrong

orangecrush
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Scottsdale, AZ, USA
8/25/2012 8:39am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
BobbyM
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21435
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Location
USA
8/25/2012 8:49am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for...
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of cheating but since he won it's cool? wow....
orangecrush
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280
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Location
Scottsdale, AZ, USA
8/25/2012 8:59am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for...
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
BobbyM wrote:
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of...
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of cheating but since he won it's cool? wow....
I think you missed the point.

Assumption - They all cheat, it's common. That said, he's the best of the elite, simply put, and has always been better prepared.

He elevated the sport. Not suggesting that cheating is acceptable, but frankly, at their level, it's gonna be pretty hard to do what they do day in, day out without some help. And while doping may be illegal, at least it's just your own blood...Nothing gets added, so while it may be extreme, its not synthetic. I'm over-simplifying all of this obviously, but again, it's no different than college or pro football. You think those guys are clean? Where they really should crack down is in college, IMO.

If these organizations really want to make a stink, go after football or bodybuilding. Cycling is small nuts in the big scheme of things.
Hando
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USA
8/25/2012 9:01am
Bigshow wrote:
This is the way I see it: We will do everything to an engine to get more performance from it. If the technology is there to...
This is the way I see it: We will do everything to an engine to get more performance from it. If the technology is there to make a bigger fast human for sports purposes then go for it. Make everything legal and lets go. Then you don't waste time and money on drug test. You as a person decide if you want to put the stuff in your body. If a person chooses to and it kills them, then so be it. It was their choice, and I won't feel sorry for them. As far as Lance, don't blame him for walking away. Don't really care what he did to win those 7 TDF's. He passed the test at the time leave him alone.
x2

The Shop

jeffro503
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8/25/2012 9:27am
ocscottie wrote:
Hey Jeff! forgot to mention to ya, have you checked the homepage lately? I posted [url=http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/member/AlliSports-Catching-Up-Josh-Hill-Conquers-Motocross-Injuries,7318/ocscottie,405]this vid[/url] that made me think of ya, you will fully...
Hey Jeff! forgot to mention to ya, have you checked the homepage lately? I posted this vid that made me think of ya, you will fully dig it. Cool
Thanks Scottie! I have been trying to visit the home page more often in fact.....but I hadn't seen that video. Great to see Josh back out there again and hope he has a healthy SX come back.
CR250Rider
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Moses Lake, WA, USA
8/25/2012 9:28am
drmarkr wrote:
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic...
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic freak, in the aerobic/anaerobic threshold sense.

Either he wasn't doping, in which case the others were doing so in order to stand a sliver of a chance of beating him, or he did dope, in which case it made it a level playing field.

And in either case, he's done more for US cycling than any before him, made an unbelievable contribution to cancer research, and positively impacted the lives of countless people around the world.

What he did today is to politely say "fuck you" to all those that refuse to move on. Good for him. Sucks to be them.
Xavier wrote:
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the...
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the fact that "EPO was not available on the market" does not prove a thing.

The Balco scandal proved without a doubt that high profile / rich athletes (that tends to go together) can put their hands on laboratory stuff long before it is "available on the market" (for sick people, not for "sportsmen").

Marion Jones, the "fastest woman on Earth" (which is a bigger deal than the "fastest cyclist") denied everything for a looong time, including in court, before admitting it, going to jail and getting stripped of her medals over stuff like that and guess what, she never tested positive either !

Now, Lance DID test positive twice, once for corticoids (got away with it, thanks to a falsely dated medical certificate and kindness from the Cycling Federation - which he was donating money to "help" fighting doping" !!) and once when his 5-year old frozen blood was found positive with EPO (which was not detectable 5 years earlier).

When, on top of that, almost a dozen of his ex-teammates (those guys spend a huge amount of time together, year-round, and share hotel rooms), some of them having nothing to gain from it, tell similar stories about that same individual, it does have some relevance...

...especially when 90% of the competitors he has beaten have been found and/or admitted to heavy doping (blood etc) !

"Genetic freak" ?

He was "strong" but not exceptional (as a cyclist) before his cancer struck, so it does not look like a very serious explanation either.

I'm not judging here, but saying "it sucks" to be on the accusers/doubters shoes (more than being on Lance's shoes) is simply outrageous.
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance.

Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN ( not a french pussy-man ) from Texas
kicked all your asses in a sport you guys hold has The Holy Grail.

It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2
CR250Rider
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8/25/2012 9:30am
forgot this: Smile
BobbyM
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USA
8/25/2012 9:41am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for...
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
BobbyM wrote:
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of...
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of cheating but since he won it's cool? wow....
I think you missed the point. Assumption - They all cheat, it's common. That said, he's the best of the elite, simply put, and has always...
I think you missed the point.

Assumption - They all cheat, it's common. That said, he's the best of the elite, simply put, and has always been better prepared.

He elevated the sport. Not suggesting that cheating is acceptable, but frankly, at their level, it's gonna be pretty hard to do what they do day in, day out without some help. And while doping may be illegal, at least it's just your own blood...Nothing gets added, so while it may be extreme, its not synthetic. I'm over-simplifying all of this obviously, but again, it's no different than college or pro football. You think those guys are clean? Where they really should crack down is in college, IMO.

If these organizations really want to make a stink, go after football or bodybuilding. Cycling is small nuts in the big scheme of things.
Have you been watching the NFL in the past decade? Severe penalties for drug usage...enhancements or otherwise. The main beef with armstrong is the outrjght lying..then to top it off he throws away his legacy" because he is tired of defending the"truth"? Thank god the american service men and women in WWll weren't so tired.
BobbyM
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USA
8/25/2012 9:49am
drmarkr wrote:
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic...
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic freak, in the aerobic/anaerobic threshold sense.

Either he wasn't doping, in which case the others were doing so in order to stand a sliver of a chance of beating him, or he did dope, in which case it made it a level playing field.

And in either case, he's done more for US cycling than any before him, made an unbelievable contribution to cancer research, and positively impacted the lives of countless people around the world.

What he did today is to politely say "fuck you" to all those that refuse to move on. Good for him. Sucks to be them.
Xavier wrote:
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the...
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the fact that "EPO was not available on the market" does not prove a thing.

The Balco scandal proved without a doubt that high profile / rich athletes (that tends to go together) can put their hands on laboratory stuff long before it is "available on the market" (for sick people, not for "sportsmen").

Marion Jones, the "fastest woman on Earth" (which is a bigger deal than the "fastest cyclist") denied everything for a looong time, including in court, before admitting it, going to jail and getting stripped of her medals over stuff like that and guess what, she never tested positive either !

Now, Lance DID test positive twice, once for corticoids (got away with it, thanks to a falsely dated medical certificate and kindness from the Cycling Federation - which he was donating money to "help" fighting doping" !!) and once when his 5-year old frozen blood was found positive with EPO (which was not detectable 5 years earlier).

When, on top of that, almost a dozen of his ex-teammates (those guys spend a huge amount of time together, year-round, and share hotel rooms), some of them having nothing to gain from it, tell similar stories about that same individual, it does have some relevance...

...especially when 90% of the competitors he has beaten have been found and/or admitted to heavy doping (blood etc) !

"Genetic freak" ?

He was "strong" but not exceptional (as a cyclist) before his cancer struck, so it does not look like a very serious explanation either.

I'm not judging here, but saying "it sucks" to be on the accusers/doubters shoes (more than being on Lance's shoes) is simply outrageous.
CR250Rider wrote:
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance. Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN...
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance.

Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN ( not a french pussy-man ) from Texas
kicked all your asses in a sport you guys hold has The Holy Grail.

It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2
Why you dissin xavier...whats he ever done to you?
8/25/2012 10:00am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 12:59pm
message deleted
Xavier
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Hossegor, FR
8/25/2012 10:19am Edited Date/Time 8/25/2012 10:27am
drmarkr wrote:
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic...
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic freak, in the aerobic/anaerobic threshold sense.

Either he wasn't doping, in which case the others were doing so in order to stand a sliver of a chance of beating him, or he did dope, in which case it made it a level playing field.

And in either case, he's done more for US cycling than any before him, made an unbelievable contribution to cancer research, and positively impacted the lives of countless people around the world.

What he did today is to politely say "fuck you" to all those that refuse to move on. Good for him. Sucks to be them.
Xavier wrote:
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the...
With all due respect for a doctor, and being pretty much convinced that Lance is amongst (no matter what, still) the very greatest cyclists ever, the fact that "EPO was not available on the market" does not prove a thing.

The Balco scandal proved without a doubt that high profile / rich athletes (that tends to go together) can put their hands on laboratory stuff long before it is "available on the market" (for sick people, not for "sportsmen").

Marion Jones, the "fastest woman on Earth" (which is a bigger deal than the "fastest cyclist") denied everything for a looong time, including in court, before admitting it, going to jail and getting stripped of her medals over stuff like that and guess what, she never tested positive either !

Now, Lance DID test positive twice, once for corticoids (got away with it, thanks to a falsely dated medical certificate and kindness from the Cycling Federation - which he was donating money to "help" fighting doping" !!) and once when his 5-year old frozen blood was found positive with EPO (which was not detectable 5 years earlier).

When, on top of that, almost a dozen of his ex-teammates (those guys spend a huge amount of time together, year-round, and share hotel rooms), some of them having nothing to gain from it, tell similar stories about that same individual, it does have some relevance...

...especially when 90% of the competitors he has beaten have been found and/or admitted to heavy doping (blood etc) !

"Genetic freak" ?

He was "strong" but not exceptional (as a cyclist) before his cancer struck, so it does not look like a very serious explanation either.

I'm not judging here, but saying "it sucks" to be on the accusers/doubters shoes (more than being on Lance's shoes) is simply outrageous.
CR250Rider wrote:
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance. Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN...
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance.

Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN ( not a french pussy-man ) from Texas
kicked all your asses in a sport you guys hold has The Holy Grail.

It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2
Well, if you want to play it that way, if it was not for (the Tour de) France, wouldn't Lance be an ex, forgotten triathlete, with a 9-to-5 job, somewhere in a remote Texas town ?! Laughing

Don't get me wrong : I believe Lance has been an exceptional cyclist/athlete and a brilliant individual.

Does it mean he's not doped ? Hell no, there are more things indicating that he has been vs things indicating he was clean.

I'm not taking a stand though, just bringing some facts that are well known in europe (and less in the US) about cycling in general and Lance in particular.

Human nature is such that we are reluctant to admit the most obvious evidence if it involves breaking our dreams or the admiration we have for an individual.

the Armstrong case is not going to change that.

A doctor is among the last persons you'd think would get caught in that situation though, because he is dealing with science and down-to-earth evidence on a daily basis, that's what drove me to react.
TMV
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Location
FR
8/25/2012 10:22am
CR250Rider wrote:
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance. Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN...
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance.

Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN ( not a french pussy-man ) from Texas
kicked all your asses in a sport you guys hold has The Holy Grail.

It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2
"It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2"

They all had only one testicule?
drmarkr
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Tucson, AZ, USA
8/25/2012 10:31am
Xavier, you demonstrate some serious ignorance of the subject when you imply that a 13-15 y/o high school student/age group swimmer/ budding triathlete from Plano Texas was obtaining/using EPO before it's release in 89......
TMV
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FR
8/25/2012 10:33am
CR250Rider wrote:
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance. Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN...
These comments seems to sum up the Sour Grapes the French people have for Lance.

Why cant you people just admit that a brazen outspoken MAN ( not a french pussy-man ) from Texas
kicked all your asses in a sport you guys hold has The Holy Grail.

It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2
Le Tour de France, The Holy Grail? You don't even know what you're talking about. American medias want you to believe it cause an American won it 7 times, lol. Half the people that are watching it are elderly that don't give a crap about the results and who wins it, all that matters for them is to watch beautyful landscapes on TV, lol...
8/25/2012 11:11am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 1:00pm
message deleted
8/25/2012 11:13am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 1:00pm
TMV wrote:
"It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2"

They all had only one testicule?
message deleted
8/25/2012 11:19am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 1:00pm
message deleted
jamma10
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Bristol, GB
8/25/2012 11:23am
message deleted
i cant stand the childish National prejudice on this forum sometimes.

Riders testifying against Armstrong:

Levi Leipheimer (USA)
Christian Vande Velde (USA)
David Zabriskie (USA)
George Hincapie (USA)
Floyd Landis (USA)
Tyler Hamilton (USA)

Chief executive of the antidoping agency: Travis Tygart (USA)

...French %ickheads you say? If he cheated, he cheated.
jamma10
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8/25/2012 11:25am
message deleted
Pathetic.
8/25/2012 11:26am Edited Date/Time 7/4/2013 1:02pm
message deleted
Xavier
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8/25/2012 12:15pm Edited Date/Time 8/25/2012 12:30pm
message deleted
Speaking about cowards, why don't you type this in English and see how long it takes for Guy B to click you ?

More interestingly, you've picked the wrong target.

Most French people -especially from my generation- love America and true American values (as well as they believe in sports ethic), including myself.

They are also very much aware of what the Allies, and most notably the US, have brought to France and to the whole World in defeating the Nazis.

That said, at this point, for an independent observer, in Lance's case (as an athlete, not speaking about his actions against cancer, of course), there appears to be quite a few clues that he is no longer carrying those values, nor able to be presented as an American role model.

Are you pretending that the Great Founders of your Nation would have any tolerance for, or support, cheating and lying, in any area of a Man's life ?

We don't need to be Americans to know they would'nt, so there is nothing "patriotic" in supporting Lance's mess right now (and nothing anti-American in looking at the facts in a non-emotional way).
mjskier
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8/25/2012 12:25pm
Exactly, and we'll end up with female shotputters like this. Come on guys, you can't allow "anything to win." The testing is to protect the athletes and ideally help them to compete clean and not damage themselves forever for a bloody medal.

Some doctor published a study a while back. Roughly, before ww2, the life expectancy of a TdF winner was 74 against 60 for the general population. Post ww2, TdF winner 60, general population 77.
Of course, there aren't that many TdF winner so I'm sure somebody versed in statistics can blow holes through that study.
But still food for thought. I guess it is like an engine. You can make steady power for a long time, or you can do 1000hp for a short glorious burst.
TMV
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8/25/2012 12:30pm
message deleted
Your french is a bit rude but quite ok...
8/25/2012 12:46pm
Not a fan of Lance Armstrong, but a bullshit move on USADA's part anyway.

Just slap him with a big fine, or something, everybody in those tours was taking PED's.

I have no doubt that he was taking PED's, but so was everyone else.

All this does now is damage cycling in general.
orangecrush
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Scottsdale, AZ, USA
8/25/2012 1:34pm
BobbyM wrote:
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of...
wtf does "beating everyone" have to do with shit? if he finished 6th he'd be a cheating POS? If it didn't payoff he'd be guilty of cheating but since he won it's cool? wow....
I think you missed the point. Assumption - They all cheat, it's common. That said, he's the best of the elite, simply put, and has always...
I think you missed the point.

Assumption - They all cheat, it's common. That said, he's the best of the elite, simply put, and has always been better prepared.

He elevated the sport. Not suggesting that cheating is acceptable, but frankly, at their level, it's gonna be pretty hard to do what they do day in, day out without some help. And while doping may be illegal, at least it's just your own blood...Nothing gets added, so while it may be extreme, its not synthetic. I'm over-simplifying all of this obviously, but again, it's no different than college or pro football. You think those guys are clean? Where they really should crack down is in college, IMO.

If these organizations really want to make a stink, go after football or bodybuilding. Cycling is small nuts in the big scheme of things.
BobbyM wrote:
Have you been watching the NFL in the past decade? Severe penalties for drug usage...enhancements or otherwise. The main beef with armstrong is the outrjght lying..then...
Have you been watching the NFL in the past decade? Severe penalties for drug usage...enhancements or otherwise. The main beef with armstrong is the outrjght lying..then to top it off he throws away his legacy" because he is tired of defending the"truth"? Thank god the american service men and women in WWll weren't so tired.
ROFL...Yea, there's no steroid use/abuse in the NFL.

You can't be this clueless?
colonel
Posts
422
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La Massana, AD
8/26/2012 7:34am
drmarkr wrote:
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic...
Lance held the record for highest VO2 Max at the Cooper Institute in Dallas before EPO was available on the market. The guy is a genetic freak, in the aerobic/anaerobic threshold sense.

Either he wasn't doping, in which case the others were doing so in order to stand a sliver of a chance of beating him, or he did dope, in which case it made it a level playing field.

And in either case, he's done more for US cycling than any before him, made an unbelievable contribution to cancer research, and positively impacted the lives of countless people around the world.

What he did today is to politely say "fuck you" to all those that refuse to move on. Good for him. Sucks to be them.
Another huge myth about his VO2 data, of which there is no real proof or raw data to confirm this. Only his book is stating this. The only thing he has done for any cycling nation or federation is take them all and everyone else for a fool with his lies and deceit and false hope.

If you recall some good few years back DrMarkR we had a convo about Lance and his doping on Mototalk and you claimed his pure innocence and we went into blood values and you went awol.
chrisbuehler
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North Stonington, CT, USA
8/26/2012 9:25am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for...
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
Exactly. I get a good laugh when football fans say how solid their testing program is. They are juiced to the gills. Anyone who's ever done any serious weight training in their life knows that. As far as Armstrong, every one of his competitors was on the same "program" he was on. So the playing field was level.
ATKpilot99
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Lake Geneva, WI, USA
8/26/2012 10:05am
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for...
Bigfoot...You have the best insights by far. Thanks for this. Good stuff...And not taking sides here, I happen to like LA for what's his done for the sport and raising awareness of a good cause.

Imagine if they cracked down on Bodybuilding or Football. What a cluster that would be. Does that mean that all linemen would be stripped of their SB titles.

Just seems all this shit with LA was taken a bit far. They are do it and in the end, he had a better strategy, better training and better teams around him. All else being equal, his still beat out the best in the world, as a team and in individual time trials.
Exactly. I get a good laugh when football fans say how solid their testing program is. They are juiced to the gills. Anyone who's ever done...
Exactly. I get a good laugh when football fans say how solid their testing program is. They are juiced to the gills. Anyone who's ever done any serious weight training in their life knows that. As far as Armstrong, every one of his competitors was on the same "program" he was on. So the playing field was level.
I've always felt the same. They come up with a positive test every now and then to look legit, but imo their testing program is either flawed or they just choose to look the other way in many cases. If they ever get a reliable test for HGH and actually enforce it I think it would change the face of the NFL.
Big
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1006
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SE
8/26/2012 10:15am
TMV wrote:
"It's men like him that rescued your butts in WW2"

They all had only one testicule?
Thank god the american service men and women in WWll weren't so tired. Wrote Bobby. He is right because most of the population in USA came from Europe....They travelled back to Europe ww2 to save their own heritage, family and friends from a plain fu.....p diktator with only one testicule! wich name was Adolf. (So did a huge amount of people even if they where from Africa from the beginning,thanks). Well some people here with less chips in their bags just don't get it? They saved their own world. And It doesn't matter what people write here. If you got a proper upbringing from your parents about sportmanship you know that if it's smells like shit it is shit. And cheating is a no no always....
ocscottie
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8/26/2012 12:21pm
I think this one is ready to be moved over to non-moto now Blink

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