Getting bike fit without the bike.

tobz
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Edited Date/Time 7/21/2012 12:58pm
Had a meeting on the weekend where the track turned pretty brutal (see pic),



I lasted fine for the first moto (they're only 10min +1 lap), but my arms died on my half way through the second moto, and i never could get going in the third, they were shot. The bars felt so harsh and like they were going to pop out of my hands if i went any harder. I feel as though i hang on with my knees and not grip so tight with my hands, but the fact of the matter is you still need strength/fitness to hang onto a bike when it's rough, right?


My cardio felt fine, but my arms could not hold on, arm pump and fatigue.

So what exercises do you do? I figure low weight/high rep routines, but what hinders and helps, I don't know. Only riding on weekends limits bike time, so is there much i can do to help bike fitness without the bike?
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6/18/2012 5:58pm
Ride more, don't hold on so tight, strengthen your core and learn to grip your seat better with your legs to take away some of the strain on your arms, shoulders and hands. Not much else you can do to alleviate arm pump. Technique, more than anything, will help improve arm pump.
JB 19
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6/18/2012 6:12pm
Ride ride ride.......making my arms stronger with weights helps me......but riding 20 min + motos helps the most. And not estimating the time.....actually keeping track with a stop watch on your bars.

Build the base of staying on the track for 20 mins and then ramp up the intensity.

I know you said getting fit without the bike, but to me that's like the magic pill that doesn't exist.
tobz
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6/18/2012 6:33pm
Thanks, so rowing machines or anything like that doesn't simulate the kind of muscle work the arms do in mx?

I say without the bike because riding during the week isn't really an option, i finish work at 5.30 and it's pretty much dark by then. And with only riding on weekends, it's pretty easy to have other things on and then all of a sudden you find yourself only riding twice in a month, etc.

I'm not looking to be a 25min moto machine, just something to help limp me over the line in the somewhat small 10 minute moto's (never never feel so quick when your on the bike!). I could do it in the first moto, but fatigue set in i suppose and sent my arms jelly for the rest of the day.
jeffro503
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6/18/2012 6:59pm
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results from the spin bike and running. Running especially....it kicks my ass in ways the spin bike will never be able to do. Other than that , just light weight training and core exercise and when you have the time....do a lot of swimming.

For arm pump....there is no magical cure.....it's just getting all the seat time on the bike you can handle. Focus on your breathing when you ride , and when practicing.....just do long motos at about 70% or so.....but keep riding.

I learned a long time ago that if I can ride 3 -4 times a week for about 3 weeks....it really helps arm pump. If I only ride once or twice a week......it'll take months! Get a ton of riding in a short amount of time.

Hope that helps Tobz.

The Shop

GuyB
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6/18/2012 7:02pm
I don't think there's anything that's a good substitute for riding.
NP301
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6/18/2012 7:05pm
tobz wrote:
Had a meeting on the weekend where the track turned pretty brutal (see pic), [img]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2619/52779935547589115261685.jpg[/img] I lasted fine for the first moto (they're only 10min +1...
Had a meeting on the weekend where the track turned pretty brutal (see pic),



I lasted fine for the first moto (they're only 10min +1 lap), but my arms died on my half way through the second moto, and i never could get going in the third, they were shot. The bars felt so harsh and like they were going to pop out of my hands if i went any harder. I feel as though i hang on with my knees and not grip so tight with my hands, but the fact of the matter is you still need strength/fitness to hang onto a bike when it's rough, right?


My cardio felt fine, but my arms could not hold on, arm pump and fatigue.

So what exercises do you do? I figure low weight/high rep routines, but what hinders and helps, I don't know. Only riding on weekends limits bike time, so is there much i can do to help bike fitness without the bike?
That's my problem, I can go 2-30min motos fine but my arms would be shot in 10 mins. It's mostly due to riding stiff, riding stiff equals holding on tight which equals ultra epic arm pump Pinch Pinch
tobz
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6/18/2012 7:06pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results...
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results from the spin bike and running. Running especially....it kicks my ass in ways the spin bike will never be able to do. Other than that , just light weight training and core exercise and when you have the time....do a lot of swimming.

For arm pump....there is no magical cure.....it's just getting all the seat time on the bike you can handle. Focus on your breathing when you ride , and when practicing.....just do long motos at about 70% or so.....but keep riding.

I learned a long time ago that if I can ride 3 -4 times a week for about 3 weeks....it really helps arm pump. If I only ride once or twice a week......it'll take months! Get a ton of riding in a short amount of time.

Hope that helps Tobz.
Thanks Jeffro! It's not that i think i don't need help with cardio, i just felt that that wasn't what was limiting me on the track. Frustrating as hell when you know you can go faster but your arms aren't doing as they're told!

I'll be off googling core exercises now Smile
jeffro503
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6/18/2012 8:57pm
jeffro503 wrote:
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results...
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results from the spin bike and running. Running especially....it kicks my ass in ways the spin bike will never be able to do. Other than that , just light weight training and core exercise and when you have the time....do a lot of swimming.

For arm pump....there is no magical cure.....it's just getting all the seat time on the bike you can handle. Focus on your breathing when you ride , and when practicing.....just do long motos at about 70% or so.....but keep riding.

I learned a long time ago that if I can ride 3 -4 times a week for about 3 weeks....it really helps arm pump. If I only ride once or twice a week......it'll take months! Get a ton of riding in a short amount of time.

Hope that helps Tobz.
tobz wrote:
Thanks Jeffro! It's not that i think i don't need help with cardio, i just felt that that wasn't what was limiting me on the track...
Thanks Jeffro! It's not that i think i don't need help with cardio, i just felt that that wasn't what was limiting me on the track. Frustrating as hell when you know you can go faster but your arms aren't doing as they're told!

I'll be off googling core exercises now Smile
Oh Tobz.....believe me , I know exactly where you are coming from. Just as an example.....for me right now , I'm injured and won't be able to ride for about a month. I am going to start back on my spin bike for the first time tomorrow morning as that will be exactly 3 weeks since I broke my ribs and most of the real "Intense" pain is gone. They still hurt like hell , and will for another 3 - 4 weeks.

BUT.....I know for a fact , that my cardio will be descent when i get back on the bike.....but I'll seriously be doing 2 , 3 or 4 lap motos the first few rides....because that is ALL my arms will let me do. It gets irritating coming back from something like this , and after a short moto I haven't even really broken a sweat and am not breathing heavy....but my arms feel like they were ran over by a truck!

But like I was saying....if you just "go ride".....not pushing yourself to hard , but just ride to get laps in , and do this for just a few weeks , about 3 - 4 times a week....it helps you get past that real bad arm pump stage quick! Then....the good news is , you can go back to riding 1 - 2 times a week , and it won't affect you near as much. Remember to focus on your breathing....I mean really concentrate on it. And make sure you are using your nose as well....not just the mouth.
jeffro503
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6/18/2012 9:00pm
BTW Tobz....in the core exercises....there are tons of different ones out there. Everyone is different , so pick and choose the ones that work best for you! Remember it's the link between your upper body and your legs....and a strong core keeps both those other areas in place better on the bike when you're taking a pounding out on the track.
JB 19
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6/18/2012 9:51pm
I would say Milsaps big swap and save at Budds was likely a product of big time natural ability, cat like reflexes, and a lot of core strength.

That had the potential to be so bad its scary to think what could have happened.
Friday
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6/18/2012 10:03pm
Nothing like pounding out motos on the bike. But for me(about to turn 50) I do the Insanity workout and have made huge gains. I got about half way through the 10 week workout and had a crash which required reattaching my pec muscle to my shoulder.So I was off the bike for 12 weeks. Of course I had to start over doing the progression of the Insanity workout. I'm about 80% healed so I can't do the ENTIRE work out but can pick and choose and do most of each 40 minute work out. Anyway,my point is after 5 weeks of this workout I felt like an animal.No arm pump. Very little cardio or muscle fatigue after 2 20 minute practices and 2 20 minute motos racing at race speed. I actually started back with the workout after my surgery and raced again after only putting around on the bike twice before racing.(I had done 2 weeks of limited Insanity training after surgery) I got through all my practices and both 20 minute motos(though I was only pushing it at about 70% pace). If you can't ride through the week,try giving the Insanity workout a try. Takes about 45 minutes a day. I love it!
tobz
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6/19/2012 12:22am
JB 19 wrote:
I would say Milsaps big swap and save at Budds was likely a product of big time natural ability, cat like reflexes, and a lot of...
I would say Milsaps big swap and save at Budds was likely a product of big time natural ability, cat like reflexes, and a lot of core strength.

That had the potential to be so bad its scary to think what could have happened.
Oh for sure, i wonder how many times RC may have dropped it had he not been a machine.
tobz
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6/19/2012 12:24am
Friday wrote:
Nothing like pounding out motos on the bike. But for me(about to turn 50) I do the Insanity workout and have made huge gains. I got...
Nothing like pounding out motos on the bike. But for me(about to turn 50) I do the Insanity workout and have made huge gains. I got about half way through the 10 week workout and had a crash which required reattaching my pec muscle to my shoulder.So I was off the bike for 12 weeks. Of course I had to start over doing the progression of the Insanity workout. I'm about 80% healed so I can't do the ENTIRE work out but can pick and choose and do most of each 40 minute work out. Anyway,my point is after 5 weeks of this workout I felt like an animal.No arm pump. Very little cardio or muscle fatigue after 2 20 minute practices and 2 20 minute motos racing at race speed. I actually started back with the workout after my surgery and raced again after only putting around on the bike twice before racing.(I had done 2 weeks of limited Insanity training after surgery) I got through all my practices and both 20 minute motos(though I was only pushing it at about 70% pace). If you can't ride through the week,try giving the Insanity workout a try. Takes about 45 minutes a day. I love it!
Thanks for the tip man, looking around at reviews this looks insane (no pun intended), looking at a few forums even fit people struggle with this workout, haha. I'll download the torrent and see how it goes.
tobz
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6/19/2012 12:27am
jeffro503 wrote:
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results...
I found that for cardio ( which you said you didn't need any help in that area ) but.....for cardio , I get the best results from the spin bike and running. Running especially....it kicks my ass in ways the spin bike will never be able to do. Other than that , just light weight training and core exercise and when you have the time....do a lot of swimming.

For arm pump....there is no magical cure.....it's just getting all the seat time on the bike you can handle. Focus on your breathing when you ride , and when practicing.....just do long motos at about 70% or so.....but keep riding.

I learned a long time ago that if I can ride 3 -4 times a week for about 3 weeks....it really helps arm pump. If I only ride once or twice a week......it'll take months! Get a ton of riding in a short amount of time.

Hope that helps Tobz.
tobz wrote:
Thanks Jeffro! It's not that i think i don't need help with cardio, i just felt that that wasn't what was limiting me on the track...
Thanks Jeffro! It's not that i think i don't need help with cardio, i just felt that that wasn't what was limiting me on the track. Frustrating as hell when you know you can go faster but your arms aren't doing as they're told!

I'll be off googling core exercises now Smile
jeffro503 wrote:
Oh Tobz.....believe me , I know exactly where you are coming from. Just as an example.....for me right now , I'm injured and won't be able...
Oh Tobz.....believe me , I know exactly where you are coming from. Just as an example.....for me right now , I'm injured and won't be able to ride for about a month. I am going to start back on my spin bike for the first time tomorrow morning as that will be exactly 3 weeks since I broke my ribs and most of the real "Intense" pain is gone. They still hurt like hell , and will for another 3 - 4 weeks.

BUT.....I know for a fact , that my cardio will be descent when i get back on the bike.....but I'll seriously be doing 2 , 3 or 4 lap motos the first few rides....because that is ALL my arms will let me do. It gets irritating coming back from something like this , and after a short moto I haven't even really broken a sweat and am not breathing heavy....but my arms feel like they were ran over by a truck!

But like I was saying....if you just "go ride".....not pushing yourself to hard , but just ride to get laps in , and do this for just a few weeks , about 3 - 4 times a week....it helps you get past that real bad arm pump stage quick! Then....the good news is , you can go back to riding 1 - 2 times a week , and it won't affect you near as much. Remember to focus on your breathing....I mean really concentrate on it. And make sure you are using your nose as well....not just the mouth.
Thanks man, i'll try my best but i just can't ride at night, hehe.
mxRob
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6/19/2012 1:36am
Stay off energy drinks, those bastards will give you arm pump like crazy. Also make sure you drink a lot of watter, I've tried drinking magnesium on race-day and it hasn't made the arm pump go away completely but I feel like it helps a little.

If you want your arms to last longer, do pushups, that will make a difference big enough Wink
6/19/2012 2:06am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2012 4:21am
Obviously it helps to ride often but one other thing that may not be a popular idea but personally worked wonders for me at least with arm pump - was to stay away from the clutch as much as possible and thus keep all my fingers on the handlebars. I started doing this myself after reading an article from Sebastien Tortelli and it immediately helped with the way the bike behaved under braking and reducing arm pump. Yes I know Gary Bailey doesn't advocate it but everyone has their own way - successful Pro riders included. I spent so many years leaving a finger or two on there, rushing into corners and mindlessly grabbing the clutch whenever I braked. These days I use the engine much more efficiently, in other words let the bike do the work and only use the clutch when absolutely necessary. Obviously I don't know how you ride but I thought it worth mentioning as a consideration.
Duc21
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6/19/2012 2:14am
First thread i have seen on here in a while that was good advice throughout, no dicks being smart :-) Was good....
6/19/2012 2:42am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2012 2:51am
I'm in the same position as you really, only get to ride about once or twice a month unfortunately. I think its important to be able to do the right sort of training when you cant ride so much. I think the closest thing you can get to motocross as far as working the same muscles is rowing- but you don't want to be doing that all the time. I think it helps to very your training as much as possible.

I normally like to get a decent mix of running, cycling, circuit training (concentrating on core strength exercises) boxing and spinning. Sometimes doing longer less intense sessions and sometimes shorter interval sessions (google tabata intervals- thats a really good way to train on the spin bike and the rowing machine if you dont have alot of time spare- just dont do it more than once or twice a week!!!!)

I try and limit the amount of weights i do and do mainly cardio- i enjoy going running with the dog (not as much as the dog does! lol) , i find that helps motivate me to go running!

Just in the process of trying to get fit myself! I had a rod removed from my tibia 11 weeks ago, the leg feels fine now- just the rest of me that needs to get back into shape!!

It might sound like a silly thing to say - but try to relax your hands on the grips as much as poss (in the air etc) and try to smooth out your riding style. I find that if i dont ride for a while i pump up alot worse in the first moto just from hanging on too tight!
motogrady
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6/19/2012 4:14am
For arm pump, attach 5 lbs weight to a 1 foot piece of sawed off broomstick, with a string or rope maybe 4 foot long.
Standing, arms out straight, roll stick with your hands till you run out of string.

Then roll it back down, don't cheat and just loosen the grip.

Running stairs for 20 minutes, quick pace jogging 3 miles in under 30 minutes,
50 pushups at a time and the stick and string thing, you should be good to go.

The only bad thing about riding all the time, and it is the best thing, is burnout imo.


good luck guy
IWreckALot
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6/19/2012 6:24am
I have a friend that has gotten me into the P90X workout (~9 weeks in) and the Insanity seems like it is more cardio driven whereas the P90X is more muscle driven. I’m mixing in mountain biking to keep the cardio up. I haven’t gotten much mx seat time in the last month but I did race a couple of weekends ago. My cardio was surprisingly a non issue. Wasn’t breathing hard at the end of the race or anything but my shoulders wanted to give out about 15 minutes into a 60 minute hare scramble. I just couldn’t push. I usually have the same problem with arm pump though and I didn’t notice it at all during the race and I’ll accredit that to P90X. I have since started taking Flaxseed oil to help with the joint pain but as Insanity was suggested, I’ll also recommend P90X.

I usually pop a couple of aspirin before I ride and that seems to help (not eliminate) with the arm pump.

An alternate workout is to buy a jack hammer and start tearing shit up. That seems to mimic a dirt bike pretty well.
tobz
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7/21/2012 1:02am
a bit of an update, i'm a week into the insanity workout, and it hurts pretty bad! rest day tomorrow but i'll be racing anyway. Your right, it's mostly cardio, but the small amount of upper body stuff it does involve is hurting me enough as it is. So my theory is to finish the insanity then check out the p90x after i get a bit more cardio fitness under my belt. Looking forward to the 4th week of insanity to hopefully notice any differences. Silly
Dirtydane
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7/21/2012 1:55am
im still reading everything in every armpump-related thread. That one day will come when someone writes something really smart and cure the armpump. god please let it happen! Smile
ayearinmx
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7/21/2012 2:22am
buy a length of rope about 3cm in diameter... outdoor rope like this:

tie one end around a tree, then grab the other end and hold it, lean back as far as you can... then hold that pose for as long as you can. Time yourself and keep trying to beat your record

this will work your grip strength and forearms like nothing else.... or you could just take up "tug of war", but that's harder
sam111
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7/21/2012 3:13am
I don't know how correct or relevant this is, but I think poor fork set-up can be a source of arm pump. I have been riding since I was 11 (am now 23), and up until last year had practically never had arm pump. It didn't become an issue until I traded my '08 RM250 for a '11 RMZ450.

I talked to a well known suspension guy, who said my forks may be too soft. His thinking was that they blow through the soft part of the stroke (and sit in the hard part of the stroke), making them harsh on small bumps. I was also bottoming them all the time. I have just had them re-valved for the 3rd time, and am hoping this time they will be right. I am pretty convinced they are the source of my problem. I guess I will find out tomorrow.
Kevin_Reed
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7/21/2012 6:11am
I use the Total Gym or elastic training bands on a door. I make a dog paddle or speed bag motion and add in wrist flex. Two sets pumps me up tight and makes my hands hurt. I used this in the winter and my hands and arms came back quick when I started riding again.
Shawn142
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7/21/2012 6:44am
I have yet to see anyone suggest the thing that ends up killing most people, and that's warm up before you race. Get the blood flowing and pumping before you get out there so it doesn't shock your body. Do jumping jacks, run in place, anything you can to break a sweat and get some breathing going right before the gate drops.
adamdf
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7/21/2012 9:34am Edited Date/Time 7/21/2012 9:37am
sam111 wrote:
I don't know how correct or relevant this is, but I think poor fork set-up can be a source of arm pump. I have been riding...
I don't know how correct or relevant this is, but I think poor fork set-up can be a source of arm pump. I have been riding since I was 11 (am now 23), and up until last year had practically never had arm pump. It didn't become an issue until I traded my '08 RM250 for a '11 RMZ450.

I talked to a well known suspension guy, who said my forks may be too soft. His thinking was that they blow through the soft part of the stroke (and sit in the hard part of the stroke), making them harsh on small bumps. I was also bottoming them all the time. I have just had them re-valved for the 3rd time, and am hoping this time they will be right. I am pretty convinced they are the source of my problem. I guess I will find out tomorrow.
That RMZ450 is also a different animal all together compared to your 08 RM250 as you know. Depending on the type of tracks you ride, that 450 will eat away at your fitness (tight loose tracks) or make your life easier (longer open flowing tracks)

EDIT: when i say "that 450" im just talking about 450s in general, not just the Suzuki, all of them. I'm thinking your solution will be to adjust your riding style to the 4 strokes, the approach is totally different and if you try to ride that 450 like you would a 125cc or 250cc two stroke then your not riding efficiently and your going to burn energy unnecessarily.
machine
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7/21/2012 10:37am
jeffro503 wrote:
Oh Tobz.....believe me , I know exactly where you are coming from. Just as an example.....for me right now , I'm injured and won't be able...
Oh Tobz.....believe me , I know exactly where you are coming from. Just as an example.....for me right now , I'm injured and won't be able to ride for about a month. I am going to start back on my spin bike for the first time tomorrow morning as that will be exactly 3 weeks since I broke my ribs and most of the real "Intense" pain is gone. They still hurt like hell , and will for another 3 - 4 weeks.

BUT.....I know for a fact , that my cardio will be descent when i get back on the bike.....but I'll seriously be doing 2 , 3 or 4 lap motos the first few rides....because that is ALL my arms will let me do. It gets irritating coming back from something like this , and after a short moto I haven't even really broken a sweat and am not breathing heavy....but my arms feel like they were ran over by a truck!

But like I was saying....if you just "go ride".....not pushing yourself to hard , but just ride to get laps in , and do this for just a few weeks , about 3 - 4 times a week....it helps you get past that real bad arm pump stage quick! Then....the good news is , you can go back to riding 1 - 2 times a week , and it won't affect you near as much. Remember to focus on your breathing....I mean really concentrate on it. And make sure you are using your nose as well....not just the mouth.
What happened man? Broken ribs?....You were just talking recently about getting an RMZ450, did you ever get it?
barrs211
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7/21/2012 12:58pm
I've always found that just having you suspension setup perfect makes things 10x better,
i used to suffer really bad, i found that press ups helped more then i thought and on road cycling to as you have to lean forward making your arms pump up a little and you just get used to it.

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