There needs to be a way to signal riders...

Sondy132001
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7/7/2008 1:36pm
Crash82 wrote:
They need to be notified not to jump and it needs to be instant. The MA incident and the one last week where the rider could...
They need to be notified not to jump and it needs to be instant. The MA incident and the one last week where the rider could not get to his bike after the step down. Someone needs to wake up, the red light someone mentioned is a good idea, it would have saved mike some pumishment and it will also save someones life down the road. If the people running the show don't do something, someone is going to get killed.
MA's accident couldn't have been prevented he was near the front and it was a freight train behind him they were all coming and nothing was going to stop them, it was just an unfortunate accident that happened to Mike. It happens in seconds too, just too fast.

I remember in the late 80's I think it was ?? my brother went down off the start at Washougal, he was up in 2nd or 3rd place and someone hit him from behind, well yeah there were 37 more riders behind him coming, just unfortunate.

S
nc_mx_kid
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7/7/2008 1:43pm
It is a good concepty and in some cases COULD help. As for the Mike Alessi deal, it was at the beginning of a race when EVERYone is close together.

Motocross Is a dangerous sport
WhipMeister
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7/7/2008 1:46pm Edited Date/Time 7/7/2008 1:46pm
I looked at the video again. It was about 8 seconds from the time he came to rest in the middle of the track until the pack cleared. It would be awfully hard to get a signal up of any kind in time to do any good. Of course, the whole debate about blind landing could be re-kindled.
7/7/2008 1:59pm
fcr wrote:
In the video it looks like the flaggers could not see down track. It needs to be like a relay system so there is not a...
In the video it looks like the flaggers could not see down track. It needs to be like a relay system so there is not a blocked view from down the line. If the flagger is looking at an area that drops out of view how could he see if someone goes down?
i have worked as a flagger before at one of our tracks down here. they go over how to flag properly etc. one thing i didnt agree with is they tell you NOT to get on the track to flag riders away from a downed rider , yes i know its for my safety and more importantly the riders safety as he/she barrels at me at 45+MPH but i have noticed that in the few instances i had to get on the track to flag riders over to one side of the track they ALL payed attention and never did i have a close call. so in this case even if the flagger was flagging the rider by the rules (staying OFF the track) the riders would know to slow but if it was on the other side of a jump then they cant see the downed rider before its too late. at the track i flagged at not every one had radios so when you threw the flag out it was an isolated yellow flag. another problem is that say on a jump there are 2 places that need to be watched the oncoming riders for crashes before or on the jump and the landing to see if they made it without crashing... when you have a full class its hard to SEE both sides of the jump while trying to watch it all. so in theory you need 2 flaggers for that situation... so at other tracks they may need more flaggers than what they normally run with. which of course raises cost etc. but i agree with the idea of having radios for ALL flaggers this way ive say a rider is down in turn 8 then 2 -3 flaggers prior to the 1st flagger can begin to wave the flag to let riders know more in advanced that there is a crash ahead and possible letting riders know and to EXPECT flaggers to be ON the track to direct them away from the downed rider. now when at the flaggers meeting they told us if anyone passed or jumped while we were waving theflag to write there number down and they would be DQ'd. now enforcement of yellow flag illegal passing , jumping etc needs to be strictly enforced so you dont get them cheaters who till try to pass on the yellow. and it shows the importance of riding safely under the yellow flag....

The Shop

KMC440
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7/7/2008 2:02pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:32pm
If anyone wants a flagging video for their track, I made one in '05 that I lobbied the AMA to use. It's not fancy, doesn't have any real cool pro riders in it and it doesn't tell a flagger to take sunscreen and water to the track. It runs just under 15min and hits most of the big issues. You can e-mail me at....

kmc440@juno.com

Or go to..

kmxvideo.com

my info is there as well. I'll send it out via usps regular mail. I bring a few with me to the Millville Nat each year, so maybe I'll see you there.
oldx
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7/7/2008 2:08pm
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
True dat. A lot of us have been in the same position and there isn't much that can be done about it.
navce78
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7/7/2008 2:13pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:32pm
i don't think any light could have warned those guys at that point


I mean i've been in the part were you can't avoid running over another rider


blind jumps are just a bit dangerous in those cases


hope smth can be done to avoid this accidents and riders not keep droping off the championship with injuries


c ya
lapper
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7/7/2008 2:14pm
I stand corrected. It's tough to tell exactly when MA goes down in the video, it's between 07 and 09 seconds. It's equally as tough to see the exact moment live from a flagging position with 39 other flying bikes clustered in a small area. The last hit occurs at 17, so I'll agree that it's 10 seconds at most. It still wasn't enough time for a flagger, or lights, or any kind of warning system to change the outcome. The last rider appears to be slower. He may have actually seen a flag and slowed some. I can tell you, pros don't slow down much for a waving yellow flag. They just get ready to react and change course. There's a video from I believe Glen Helen a few years ago. Ironically I think it's MA trying to restart his bike. You see a rider pass a standing and waving yellow flag as he approaches, and still plows into MA. The Red Cross flag does get their attention, but you better not throw it for a stalled rider.
This post started as a discussion on alternative ways that rider safety could be improved. There's been a few good suggestions. It turned into the same old "Flaggers suck!" post that appears every time a rider gets hit. Having been in the flagger shoes, I can tell you that flaggers at pro events may be volunteers, but they dedicated folks who take the job very serious. They are watched by the AMA officials, and if you are not paying attention, or are slow to react, you get replaced on the spot. Money is not going to improve the quality of flaggers. Pay is no substitute for passion.
7/7/2008 2:15pm
KMC440 wrote:
If anyone wants a flagging video for their track, I made one in '05 that I lobbied the AMA to use. It's not fancy, doesn't have...
If anyone wants a flagging video for their track, I made one in '05 that I lobbied the AMA to use. It's not fancy, doesn't have any real cool pro riders in it and it doesn't tell a flagger to take sunscreen and water to the track. It runs just under 15min and hits most of the big issues. You can e-mail me at....

kmc440@juno.com

Or go to..

kmxvideo.com

my info is there as well. I'll send it out via usps regular mail. I bring a few with me to the Millville Nat each year, so maybe I'll see you there.
i remember about that video coming out but i never got to watch it as i stopped flagging for that track as gas prices went up (its an hours drive)...
7/7/2008 2:35pm
RanelC10 wrote:
We already have a good system for this and its used on the triples in supercross. Its simple ALL of the blind jumps on an mx...
We already have a good system for this and its used on the triples in supercross. Its simple ALL of the blind jumps on an mx track should have those same red lights. You see a red light, you don't jump or you will be penalized.

PMP, here in AZ uses this system and it works very well. Each flagger has control of a couple areas that he can light up if someone goes down in his section. All he has to do when he sees a rider go down is press a button. How many seconds does that take? 2 Maybe. Lapper says it was less than 5 seconds when MA went down of people hitting him, lights could have saved up to 3 seconds of that. Is that worth it? YES!

The system they use at our track here works with the amount of people we have. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be able to designate 1 person and 1 button for each blind jump on an AMA National track. The flagger with the button is placed where he can see the landing, and the lights will light up as far back as you decide the rider would need to be able to shut off for the jump.
The light system at PMP does work well. It may not be perfect but I find it to be very effective.
35smom
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7/7/2008 2:40pm
flarider wrote:
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident. Nothing Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything. Starts in...
NOTHING would've changed the MA incident.
Nothing

Everyone is going way too fast too close together for any light or flagger to change anything.

Starts in racing, all racing, is the most hairball part.
Lot of horsepower, adrenaline, speed, nerves and more mixed together in close quarters, ain't nothing gonna change it.
Phlapjax wrote:
x2
crowe176 wrote:
I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a...
I agree. What and where MA's accident happened would be like telling someone to run out on the track with a flag at Daytona after a driver spins out.
Wow....I actually agree with you crowe. Just think how fast the human brain works with reaction time and the "awww" factor. It will take approx. 5 to 10 seconds for your brain to comprehend the situation and then determine how to react. By that time it was already too late. Its easy for us to say "what if" but this is high speed mx racing at its best, while i agree that we need to train flaggers better but I really don't think anything would have helped.
That crash was the worst thing I have seen in a long time. Get well soon Mike
dre3101
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7/7/2008 2:41pm
another idea that might have some merit is the street light system hung on a truss like the finish line... you could sell the advertising rights on the arm portions, top portions of the truss...

i would also love to see a camera angle from the back side top of a truss that shows some of the more interesting downhill sections... akin to the top of backboard cameras in the nba.
jonjon714
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7/7/2008 2:43pm
20 years from now it may be all automatic...A rider will have simple "sensors" that know when he's gone ass-over-elbow, head impact, etc..etc....When activated, a transmitter will send a signal to a unit that will then transmit a signal to all riders in that pre-determined zone. The approaching riders will hear an audible tone or a voice saying "Whoa". Additionally, a small red flashing light on the back of the rider's helmet will flash while he is located in the "activated zone." Once a rider has cleared the zone he will hear "green" and it's back to race speed.

dre3101
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7/7/2008 2:49pm
i am sure that one of the esteemed posters will know the answer to this:

other than the ama rule prohibiting its usage, why do the riders not have some type of audible race control system - ie, rider down in turn 3, the riders hear from an AMA official over the official race control audio that someone is down... again, a "receive-only" system that is only capable of ama broadcast messages...
KMC440
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7/7/2008 2:50pm
Interesting ... they already have that in a lot of your local roundy-round Friday, Saturday night racing. The sprint car series I wrench at here requires them and they require them in the dirt late-models as well.

Good idea... not practical for the local track but very practical in SX/MX.

It's a one-way voice from race control, for line-ups etc. that would work very well for a lot of situations.
RanelC10
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7/7/2008 2:52pm
I agree that flaggers wouldn't have worked, and even if a light was put up it might not have worked in this instance, but you never know it might have. You guys really don't think that in 10 seconds the last rider didn't have time to shut off and not jump? Count to 10 right now and tell me that it isn't possible. It is. So assuming only the last guy had enough time to shut off after he saw the lights we saved MA from being hit 1 more time.

A light wont help like it could be if its used with the same rules as a flag is now. It would have to be just like supercross where if you jump the jump while the lights on you start getting docked positions!

These lights are not expensive, are very easy to operate, can be turned on quicker than a flagger can get to the spot of the crash to wave the flag, and one day they will save someone.

The lights must be placed far enough down the track so that the rider has time to see it and get off the gas. It can't be just on the face of the jump, like supercross. MX is such a faster speed and more time is needed to get off the gas safely. Each jump would be different on how far back the light should be, but it would be extremely easy to figure out where to put them.

Why would you not use the lights? I think its worth it. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it definitely wont hurt!
Crash82
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7/7/2008 2:56pm
dre3101 wrote:
i am sure that one of the esteemed posters will know the answer to this: other than the ama rule prohibiting its usage, why do the...
i am sure that one of the esteemed posters will know the answer to this:

other than the ama rule prohibiting its usage, why do the riders not have some type of audible race control system - ie, rider down in turn 3, the riders hear from an AMA official over the official race control audio that someone is down... again, a "receive-only" system that is only capable of ama broadcast messages...
Exactly.


To the rest of you:

1 LAST TIME AND i'M DONE HERE....THE LAST TWO HITS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.....maybe you guys need some crash82 flaggers.
35smom
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7/7/2008 2:57pm
RanelC10 wrote:
I agree that flaggers wouldn't have worked, and even if a light was put up it might not have worked in this instance, but you never...
I agree that flaggers wouldn't have worked, and even if a light was put up it might not have worked in this instance, but you never know it might have. You guys really don't think that in 10 seconds the last rider didn't have time to shut off and not jump? Count to 10 right now and tell me that it isn't possible. It is. So assuming only the last guy had enough time to shut off after he saw the lights we saved MA from being hit 1 more time.

A light wont help like it could be if its used with the same rules as a flag is now. It would have to be just like supercross where if you jump the jump while the lights on you start getting docked positions!

These lights are not expensive, are very easy to operate, can be turned on quicker than a flagger can get to the spot of the crash to wave the flag, and one day they will save someone.

The lights must be placed far enough down the track so that the rider has time to see it and get off the gas. It can't be just on the face of the jump, like supercross. MX is such a faster speed and more time is needed to get off the gas safely. Each jump would be different on how far back the light should be, but it would be extremely easy to figure out where to put them.

Why would you not use the lights? I think its worth it. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it definitely wont hurt!
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7 seconds of the crash when it happened. That would have given them 2 to 3 seconds notice....no way.
jonjon714
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7/7/2008 3:00pm
What is at issue is this...How fast can someone react to and get the information to riders....

Lights would be good...Audio would be best and would reach all "required" riders at the same time.

Take the flag and give their ass a panic button, or in addition to the flag..
7/7/2008 3:02pm Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:32pm
I meantioned it in another thread that a lighting system would be an easy idea. The light would flash over the area in question and the area before hand as well.

Simple you could have one would be flagger standing in a position to see for example 3 turns and 3 jumps and whoop section and his or her switchboard would be labled as such.
When the fagger sees a rider go down boom, hit the switch and automatically the lights for the section which comes before the downed rider would activate to notify the riders ahead of time. It is not rocket scientry

Lets not get carried away now because I am not talking about those sissy Nascar yellow flags that shut down a whole race track, just a simple notification system that keeps riders away from not only downed riders, but also the flagpersons

In the MA case, I doubt much would have helped though, maybe a little
RanelC10
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7/7/2008 3:06pm
35smom wrote:
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7...
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7 seconds of the crash when it happened. That would have given them 2 to 3 seconds notice....no way.
5 to 10 seconds to press a button, really? Wow.
Assuming your right, fine, it wouldn't have worked in this ONE crash... Your not seeing the big picture though.
Are you really going to argue that these lights wouldn't help one day?
Crash82
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7/7/2008 3:09pm
RanelC10 wrote:
I agree that flaggers wouldn't have worked, and even if a light was put up it might not have worked in this instance, but you never...
I agree that flaggers wouldn't have worked, and even if a light was put up it might not have worked in this instance, but you never know it might have. You guys really don't think that in 10 seconds the last rider didn't have time to shut off and not jump? Count to 10 right now and tell me that it isn't possible. It is. So assuming only the last guy had enough time to shut off after he saw the lights we saved MA from being hit 1 more time.

A light wont help like it could be if its used with the same rules as a flag is now. It would have to be just like supercross where if you jump the jump while the lights on you start getting docked positions!

These lights are not expensive, are very easy to operate, can be turned on quicker than a flagger can get to the spot of the crash to wave the flag, and one day they will save someone.

The lights must be placed far enough down the track so that the rider has time to see it and get off the gas. It can't be just on the face of the jump, like supercross. MX is such a faster speed and more time is needed to get off the gas safely. Each jump would be different on how far back the light should be, but it would be extremely easy to figure out where to put them.

Why would you not use the lights? I think its worth it. Maybe it will help, maybe it won't, but it definitely wont hurt!
35smom wrote:
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7...
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7 seconds of the crash when it happened. That would have given them 2 to 3 seconds notice....no way.
Rider is motionless in track on backside of jump, i could turn the red light on in 2 seconds if I had button in hand, a lot of your other facts in your statement are wrong. Grab red flag, stand in front of jump, wave flag like crazy man, move before the riders get there.
7/7/2008 3:10pm
They should provide in-helmet radios for riders and with volumes loud enough to overcome a line of four strokes on the gate. As soon as a flagger or track official sees a problem the riders are instantly notified to slow down. It won't solve all the problems but you won't have to change the track or have lights or whatever else.
Phlapjax
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7/7/2008 3:11pm
Crash82 wrote:
Rider is motionless in track on backside of jump, i could turn the red light on in 2 seconds if I had button in hand, a...
Rider is motionless in track on backside of jump, i could turn the red light on in 2 seconds if I had button in hand, a lot of your other facts in your statement are wrong. Grab red flag, stand in front of jump, wave flag like crazy man, move before the riders get there.
Thought your last post said you were done in here?

You Fail.
Sondy132001
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7/7/2008 3:12pm
35smom wrote:
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7...
Not talkin 10 seconds forewarning of the riders here.....5-10 seconds for the warning to be initiated. Most riders if not all were within 5 to 7 seconds of the crash when it happened. That would have given them 2 to 3 seconds notice....no way.
RanelC10 wrote:
5 to 10 seconds to press a button, really? Wow. Assuming your right, fine, it wouldn't have worked in this ONE crash... Your not seeing the...
5 to 10 seconds to press a button, really? Wow.
Assuming your right, fine, it wouldn't have worked in this ONE crash... Your not seeing the big picture though.
Are you really going to argue that these lights wouldn't help one day?
she's not arguing about the lights, we are just stating in Alessi's case they wouldn't have helped and sure the lights would be fantastic for future instances.

S
KAMIKAZE
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7/7/2008 3:28pm
Tiki wrote:
I know a few people that worked the Glen Helen national, I know they race that same track. I cant say its that way at all...
I know a few people that worked the Glen Helen national, I know they race that same track. I cant say its that way at all races, I believe the Hangtown crew is a lot of racers as well. If thats the case they aren't totally green.
Magoo already presented this to AmA 5 years ago and they shot it down!!
fcr
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7/7/2008 3:36pm
lapper wrote:
I stand corrected. It's tough to tell exactly when MA goes down in the video, it's between 07 and 09 seconds. It's equally as tough to...
I stand corrected. It's tough to tell exactly when MA goes down in the video, it's between 07 and 09 seconds. It's equally as tough to see the exact moment live from a flagging position with 39 other flying bikes clustered in a small area. The last hit occurs at 17, so I'll agree that it's 10 seconds at most. It still wasn't enough time for a flagger, or lights, or any kind of warning system to change the outcome. The last rider appears to be slower. He may have actually seen a flag and slowed some. I can tell you, pros don't slow down much for a waving yellow flag. They just get ready to react and change course. There's a video from I believe Glen Helen a few years ago. Ironically I think it's MA trying to restart his bike. You see a rider pass a standing and waving yellow flag as he approaches, and still plows into MA. The Red Cross flag does get their attention, but you better not throw it for a stalled rider.
This post started as a discussion on alternative ways that rider safety could be improved. There's been a few good suggestions. It turned into the same old "Flaggers suck!" post that appears every time a rider gets hit. Having been in the flagger shoes, I can tell you that flaggers at pro events may be volunteers, but they dedicated folks who take the job very serious. They are watched by the AMA officials, and if you are not paying attention, or are slow to react, you get replaced on the spot. Money is not going to improve the quality of flaggers. Pay is no substitute for passion.
There are some good suggestions, just throw out the crap. I have watched some flaggers at GH that were not doing there job because everything was Kaos. Wasn't the Alessi crash at GH when he lost the championship kind of a cluster F***. Not the IT/MA fiasco. What has to happen is the sanctioning bodies need to look at this situation and make changes if necessary. Flagging is voluntary correct? Even at that it has to be done in a proffesional manner.

Crash82
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7/7/2008 3:42pm
Crash82 wrote:
Rider is motionless in track on backside of jump, i could turn the red light on in 2 seconds if I had button in hand, a...
Rider is motionless in track on backside of jump, i could turn the red light on in 2 seconds if I had button in hand, a lot of your other facts in your statement are wrong. Grab red flag, stand in front of jump, wave flag like crazy man, move before the riders get there.
Phlapjax wrote:
Thought your last post said you were done in here?

You Fail.
Dude all I got is a GED cut me some slack..
KAMIKAZE
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7/7/2008 3:45pm
GuyB
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7/7/2008 3:58pm
Not all flaggers are created equal. I saw one guy last weekend who was borderline window-licker. He probably shouldn't have had a flag in his hands.

Here are two views of the area where Mike crashed...



The crash started at the bottom of the hill before the next jump, so you get an idea of the kind of speed they were carrying down the hill...and also the visibility. The riders had pretty much no view of what was on the other side of the jump.



This was from the restart, so you get an idea how the riders were spaced out by the time they got there on the first lap. Mike landed a little further down the track, and to the right of where James is in this shot.

I think the idea of radios is interesting, particularly on starts...but it'd have to be controlled by someone with full view of that area. Also, how much area do you cover? The first and second turns are on top of the hill. If you hear, "Slow down..." what does that mean? Where? How would riders figure out which section you're talking about?

Also, red flags at the Nationals only happen at the finish line. It takes time to make a decision to red flag a start. In Mike's case, they were starting to line up flaggers to protect him and the medical staff in case the riders came around again, but the call for the red flag came before the riders got to the finish line at the end of the first lap.

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