When will Yamaha admit failure and go back ?

4/13/2012 3:20am
2strokerider, oh yeah, Im real clueless. I dont know anything about the current YZ.


Two things that really crack me up are when average joes think that because the bike is great for them, it should work for a pro. And the other is when people start listing weights of the bikes in an effort to show that the Yamaha isnt a heavy turd.

You guys are not pro's. You dont push the bike's limits. And secondly, production weights and race bike weights are completely different. Ive already had this argument on this forum and was later proven correct when Matthes ran an article on the comparisons between the factory level bikes weights. The Yamaha, due to its inherent flaws, is the most heavy of the bikes (at the factory level) by about 15+ lbs. Combine that with a frame that doesnt flex and an awkward front end and its just too different for any rider to adapt too. Besides, the best drivers dont adapt to their bikes, they make their bikes adapt to them through proper set-up.


That is not to say that the Yamaha isnt an absolute GREAT bike for the consumer. Despite its weight, it has a light feel. And it is reliable as they come and very powerful. It's a very good bike for joe-consumer.
4/13/2012 4:24am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 4:29am
2strokerider, oh yeah, Im real clueless. I dont know anything about the current YZ. Two things that really crack me up are when average joes think...
2strokerider, oh yeah, Im real clueless. I dont know anything about the current YZ.


Two things that really crack me up are when average joes think that because the bike is great for them, it should work for a pro. And the other is when people start listing weights of the bikes in an effort to show that the Yamaha isnt a heavy turd.

You guys are not pro's. You dont push the bike's limits. And secondly, production weights and race bike weights are completely different. Ive already had this argument on this forum and was later proven correct when Matthes ran an article on the comparisons between the factory level bikes weights. The Yamaha, due to its inherent flaws, is the most heavy of the bikes (at the factory level) by about 15+ lbs. Combine that with a frame that doesnt flex and an awkward front end and its just too different for any rider to adapt too. Besides, the best drivers dont adapt to their bikes, they make their bikes adapt to them through proper set-up.


That is not to say that the Yamaha isnt an absolute GREAT bike for the consumer. Despite its weight, it has a light feel. And it is reliable as they come and very powerful. It's a very good bike for joe-consumer.
The yamaha is different, but not necessarily a bad bike (at any level)

You made yourself sound clueless when you said that a podium in gps is equivalent to a 9th in the ama

'We're not talking about top 10's, we are talking about the ELITE guys, the FAB 5 so to speak. Those guys need the best equipment and James is just not on equipment even close to the level of his contemporaries'

if that was the case, then why has james won heat races AND main events on the bike? milsaps has been in the top 5 on it, frossard has won gp's on it and paulin won a moto at the mx des nations on a new generation 450 yam just last year!

If the bike wasnt good enough to win at that level, then how did that happen?
4/13/2012 5:03am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 5:05am
The yamaha is different, but not necessarily a bad bike (at any level) You made yourself sound clueless when you said that a podium in gps...
The yamaha is different, but not necessarily a bad bike (at any level)

You made yourself sound clueless when you said that a podium in gps is equivalent to a 9th in the ama

'We're not talking about top 10's, we are talking about the ELITE guys, the FAB 5 so to speak. Those guys need the best equipment and James is just not on equipment even close to the level of his contemporaries'

if that was the case, then why has james won heat races AND main events on the bike? milsaps has been in the top 5 on it, frossard has won gp's on it and paulin won a moto at the mx des nations on a new generation 450 yam just last year!

If the bike wasnt good enough to win at that level, then how did that happen?
It is a bad bike at the pro level.


And yes, the AMA is more competitive than the GP's. Im not a flag waiving American. I love Europe more than you would know. I hold no bias when comparing the two series. At the very top, the talent is equal, but outside the GP's top few guys, the talent drops off considerably compared to the AMA, thats just a fact.


Why James does so well in practice and the heats is because he is that talented. Why he cant make it work in the main is honestly a mystery. Look, Im not going to sit here and say that Bubba doesnt have his own issues, unrelated to the bike. BobbyM alludes to them here on the daily and he isnt wrong in what he knows. But those distractions have always been there, its nothing new and would not explain his sudden fall to mediocrity. I do know one thing about the Yamaha as it pertains to practice vs mains, I havent seen one set up that can both be good off the line and handle. Its a pick your poison sort of deal when dealing with that rear shock and funky front end.

Everyone from the outside looking in wants a black & white explanation for the whole Bubba/Yamaha disaster of a marriage but its just not a simple thing to explain. There are many factors in play here.


Oh, and as for the GP/MXdN results... here's another fact for you... the difference between AMA tracks and GP tracks is pretty significant. The Euro tracks suit the Yamaha's characteristics. That might have something to do with why the Euro's have had success on those bikes in their home turf.
4/13/2012 5:32am
jamma10 wrote:
Another thread ruined by American sense of supremacy.
Or... another thread ruined by British insecurities? Wink

It goes both ways you know. And I can think of very few people on this forum that arent biased. AMA vs Euro fanboyism is no less a problem than the Bubba fantards, the RV nutsuckers, or the RC mob of drones before it.

The Shop

Digger437
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4/13/2012 6:33am
Jay, have you ridden either the 2011 or 2012 Yamaha YZ450's?
500guy
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4/13/2012 7:01am
Digger437 wrote:
Jay, have you ridden either the 2011 or 2012 Yamaha YZ450's?
I like the Yamaha and I'm not saying it's a bad bike. I'm saying it's perceived as such and obviously the design is not an advantage.
GrapeApe
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4/13/2012 7:15am
500guy wrote:
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input. I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2...
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input.

I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2. on or below par to the others 3.unproven

I'm asking when Yamaha will change direction.
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
You can consistently spank all of your friends at your local desert racing series on a YZF450? Wow, if that doesn't convince Jay it is a great motocross bike, nothing will. Have you thought about emailing JGR your desert setup tips? Armed with that info they may be able to salvage the rest of the supercross series.
RichYox
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4/13/2012 7:18am
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
500 guy has failed to respond to your/our questions.........

Can you say POSER !!!!!! Wannabe !!!!! Vagina!!!
josh8811
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4/13/2012 7:27am
500guy wrote:
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input. I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2...
There is nothing stupid about this topic besides for your input.

I raise valid questions, the bike works duh , people perceive it as 1.ugly 2. on or below par to the others 3.unproven

I'm asking when Yamaha will change direction.
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
GrapeApe wrote:
You can consistently spank all of your friends at your local desert racing series on a YZF450? Wow, if that doesn't convince Jay it is a...
You can consistently spank all of your friends at your local desert racing series on a YZF450? Wow, if that doesn't convince Jay it is a great motocross bike, nothing will. Have you thought about emailing JGR your desert setup tips? Armed with that info they may be able to salvage the rest of the supercross series.
Again: what bike are you riding? Have you ever ridden the new YZ? Who are you again?

JGR is doing pretty good actually, looks like they are going to finish second in the points..
James on the other hand, is in a bit of a slump.

I understand I'm a nobody and desert has nothing to do with AMA SX.. But you, along with 500BRO saying there's sometime of tragic flaw with the bike is laughable.
4/13/2012 7:28am
jmar wrote:
Yamaha's are different, and this goes back to the days of the YZ 250. They aren't bad bikes, but they don't work for everyone. They can...
Yamaha's are different, and this goes back to the days of the YZ 250. They aren't bad bikes, but they don't work for everyone. They can be a total bitch for some as far as the front end, and how the bike turns.

Like I said, some love the bikes, but some just can't deal with the turning traits of the YZ,
Funny thing is I hate hate hate the YZ front end feeling. Gives me headshake. Been on Kawi big bikes for over a decade. Much like James before this Yamaha episode.
GrapeApe
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4/13/2012 7:42am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 7:43am
josh8811 wrote:
- Post up a picture of your bike.. - Have you raced lately? ever? - What's your skill level? - What is your profession? No, you've...
- Post up a picture of your bike..
- Have you raced lately? ever?
- What's your skill level?
- What is your profession?

No, you've not proposed an intelligent question. You're just another vitard, bandwagon, moron.

Please explain one first hand experience you've had on the YZ.

At the moment, I've got 4 dirt bikes, including a 2011 YZ450. I've got 60 hours on it.. 80% desert, and 20% track.. The bike is amazing.. All I've done is suspension, bars, pegs, FWW, and a few other things. I've raced it in the local desert series, and consistently spanked all my friends.
I'd like to try other color bikes because I see the good in all of them. I've always liked/ridden honda's, but I don't think it would make as good of a desert bike. No other 450 is considered as reliable as the yamaha, only the honda is lighter, it like the looks and the ergos..

I'm beyond sick of reading the "yamaha sucks because James is not winning" post.. This mind set is beyond dumb..

IDIOTS... A new guy has stood up.. He's been working harder, dedicating every aspect of his life to moto, and the results show it.. His name is RV2..
GrapeApe wrote:
You can consistently spank all of your friends at your local desert racing series on a YZF450? Wow, if that doesn't convince Jay it is a...
You can consistently spank all of your friends at your local desert racing series on a YZF450? Wow, if that doesn't convince Jay it is a great motocross bike, nothing will. Have you thought about emailing JGR your desert setup tips? Armed with that info they may be able to salvage the rest of the supercross series.
josh8811 wrote:
Again: what bike are you riding? Have you ever ridden the new YZ? Who are you again? JGR is doing pretty good actually, looks like they...
Again: what bike are you riding? Have you ever ridden the new YZ? Who are you again?

JGR is doing pretty good actually, looks like they are going to finish second in the points..
James on the other hand, is in a bit of a slump.

I understand I'm a nobody and desert has nothing to do with AMA SX.. But you, along with 500BRO saying there's sometime of tragic flaw with the bike is laughable.
Please go back and re-read this thread and tell me where I said there is a tragic flaw in the bike. The only thing I have knocked is the appearance, which is indeed tragic.

I think the point of this thread by 500guy is valid. Like it or not, the new generation Yamaha has not been well received (with exceptions, like yourself, of course). At what point would they consider going back to a more conventional design? If anyone other than Jay would have asked the question, there probably would have been some intelligent debate. But because it's Jay, we have to suffer through insult-riddled tirades like yours that completely miss the mark.
burn1986
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4/13/2012 7:49am Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 7:50am
C'mon, there is nothing inherently wrong with the YZ450. It probably just doesn't suit JS, just like the Kawi didn't suit Chad. The only thing it needs is to change the front fender.
Cygnus
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4/13/2012 8:10am
One major advantage is that if the bike falls on you it does not give you an instant 3rd degree burn. I think a mandatory rule...
One major advantage is that if the bike falls on you it does not give you an instant 3rd degree burn. I think a mandatory rule at all local track and maybe even ama is that all 4stroke bikes should have the pipe wrapped or a burn guard in place.
So this huge burn on my leg isnt from a CR 85? Millions of people have burns from two stroke pipes you fool.
500guy
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4/13/2012 8:47am
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue.

So here you go dipshits.

BDW photo 2011

josh8811
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4/13/2012 8:54am
500guy wrote:
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue. So here you go dipshits. BDW photo 2011 [img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/559599_3555329652112_1538832662_4200817_730590471_n.jpg[/img]...
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue.

So here you go dipshits.

BDW photo 2011

sweet pic!!
newmann
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4/13/2012 9:24am
jamma10 wrote:
Another thread ruined by American sense of supremacy.
Now I know you are just fucking around here in the realm of all things moto. You see who the AMA is in bed with now ? Kymco! Supremacy, I don't think so. Desperation would be a better description.
scooter5002
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4/13/2012 9:28am
Nice shot Jay. But is it really YOU?! Bwahahahahaha
4/13/2012 9:31am
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here.

ForumBoard101 says that its generally not a good idea to get baited into posting pics of yourself or gf is generally a bad idea.



What's even more funny, is that I just showed that pic to my roommate and he instantly started busting up and said, "THATS 500guy!"... my roommate doesnt read the forums very often but considering he recognized who you were from just that pic and without me saying anything, is pretty funny.
500guy
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4/13/2012 10:56am
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here. ForumBoard101 says that its generally not...
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here.

ForumBoard101 says that its generally not a good idea to get baited into posting pics of yourself or gf is generally a bad idea.



What's even more funny, is that I just showed that pic to my roommate and he instantly started busting up and said, "THATS 500guy!"... my roommate doesnt read the forums very often but considering he recognized who you were from just that pic and without me saying anything, is pretty funny.
Roommate = Life Partner ?
TeamGreen
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4/13/2012 11:01am
ML512 wrote:
I love reading the so called know it alls on here claiming they know whats going on with the new 250F development....
Yup.

No-one around here is any-where near the R&D types that work at the OEM's...

Right?
peelout
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4/13/2012 11:06am
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here. ForumBoard101 says that its generally not...
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here.

ForumBoard101 says that its generally not a good idea to get baited into posting pics of yourself or gf is generally a bad idea.



What's even more funny, is that I just showed that pic to my roommate and he instantly started busting up and said, "THATS 500guy!"... my roommate doesnt read the forums very often but considering he recognized who you were from just that pic and without me saying anything, is pretty funny.
leave the 500Guy sticker out of it.
throttle77
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4/13/2012 11:10am
Cool picture. About Yamaha, how would they go about switching back to a more normal setup? kind of tough to admit "this design sucked, we were wrong". I guess they could change it up and say "we are refining the original idea" The exhaust exiting the back of the head seems like a good idea...
Spode
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4/13/2012 11:49am
Holker10 wrote:
How heavy it is??? Do your homework! The yamaha is the second lightest 450.
I think it I the heaviest in class or second heaviest. If you are correct they need to get it down to crf450
Holker10 wrote:
RMZ-249 (wet)
KXF - 249 (wet)
CRF - 238 (wet)
YZF - 245 (wet)
KTM - 235(dry),
From MXA using same scale

Honda CRF450...........231
Yamaha YZ450F.........238
Kawasaki KX450.........242
KTM 450SXF...............243
Suzuki RM-Z450.........244
ADynes
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4/13/2012 12:10pm
dak446 wrote:
"fore and aft"? What are you, a sailor? Do you honestly think that Yamaha engineers didn't think of the crap you're saying? BTW, trifilar pendulum (or...
"fore and aft"? What are you, a sailor? Do you honestly think that Yamaha engineers didn't think of the crap you're saying?

BTW, trifilar pendulum (or any other rigid body analysis, for that matter) isn't what guys at JGR, Yamaha, or any other team or mfg combination you can come up with is using. Why don't we use carrier pidgeons to communicate anymore?
Lol, bad day? You sound like you need a beer...
Sherwood
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4/13/2012 12:15pm
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here. ForumBoard101 says that its generally not...
500guy even has his own logo? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Awesome. That front number plate is not going to win anyone over here.

ForumBoard101 says that its generally not a good idea to get baited into posting pics of yourself or gf is generally a bad idea.



What's even more funny, is that I just showed that pic to my roommate and he instantly started busting up and said, "THATS 500guy!"... my roommate doesnt read the forums very often but considering he recognized who you were from just that pic and without me saying anything, is pretty funny.
What gave it away, the giant 500 guy sticker? You guys are SO smart!
burn1986
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4/13/2012 12:27pm Edited Date/Time 4/13/2012 12:29pm
500guy wrote:
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue. So here you go dipshits. BDW photo 2011 [img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/559599_3555329652112_1538832662_4200817_730590471_n.jpg[/img]...
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue.

So here you go dipshits.

BDW photo 2011

Obviously photoshopped. Why is "Motorscooter Validates" captialized?
CR250Rider
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Moses Lake, WA, USA
4/13/2012 12:33pm
500guy wrote:
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue. So here you go dipshits. BDW photo 2011 [img]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/559599_3555329652112_1538832662_4200817_730590471_n.jpg[/img]...
Apparently a photo of myself riding a Motorscooter Validates my right to an opinion about this issue.

So here you go dipshits.

BDW photo 2011

burn1986 wrote:
Obviously photoshopped. Why is "Motorscooter Validates" captialized?
and why is a 500 guy on a 450?
josh8811
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4/13/2012 12:41pm
I really wasn't trying to be a dick to 500Guy or GrapeApe.. The nonstop threads of "James crashes because his yamaha sux" gets on my nerves.. IMO is a childish/BRO thing to say..

If we looked back to James crashes this year, most all of them were 100% James.. There were a few where the bike got away form him in the whoops, or he spun the back tire and tossed himself.. Even then, everyone wants to blame the tire if he looses traction..If there really are tires that never loose traction, let me know where to get a set.. I would almost never crash ever if I never lost a tire..
gotwings
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4/13/2012 12:43pm
burn1986 wrote:
C'mon, there is nothing inherently wrong with the YZ450. It probably just doesn't suit JS, just like the Kawi didn't suit Chad. The only thing it...
C'mon, there is nothing inherently wrong with the YZ450. It probably just doesn't suit JS, just like the Kawi didn't suit Chad. The only thing it needs is to change the front fender.
That and you can't follow right behind someone on a muddy track because the airbox fills up with roost...
WhKnuckle
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4/13/2012 12:46pm
The main feature of the Yamaha is mass centralization, and nobody who knows much about physics would dispute that mass centralization is a good thing. It's not the ONLY thing, but it's a good thing.

And I find it hilarious that guys would argue about the relative performance of bikes that they rarely even get wide open for more than a second or two. There are about 10 guys in the world who could really, really discuss relative 450 performance, and none of them post on VitalMX.

Post a reply to: When will Yamaha admit failure and go back ?

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