Maybe the 2-stroke 'tards are right?

carlosmacho
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Lost Wages, NV US
4/5/2012 2:01pm
newmann wrote:
For those who think a $3999.00 entry level dirt bike isn't possible. The 2011 Honda CBR250R retailed for $3999.00 and the 2012 model is $4099.00. 359...
For those who think a $3999.00 entry level dirt bike isn't possible. The 2011 Honda CBR250R retailed for $3999.00 and the 2012 model is $4099.00. 359 lb's of custom painted decked out street bike. So, HAHAHAHAHAHA have another one "brobob".

Could it compete with a race bike like a TZ250 in lightness, power, handling? Do you understand the difference between a race motocross bike that uses...
Could it compete with a race bike like a TZ250 in lightness, power, handling? Do you understand the difference between a race motocross bike that uses lighter more expensive parts for racing over a dumbed down commuter bike that weighs 359lbs.
This bike produces 23.7 hp (17.7 kW) @ 9,900 rpm
Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?
Here is what you get for 3999. Really, I don't know why I bother to even explain this. If you don't understand this simple concept, you will never be able to make sense of this issue or have enough intelligence to get a good enough job to even afford a 4 stroke or a 2 stroke with direct inject.
newmann wrote:
"Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?" Seriously, what are...
"Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?"


Seriously, what are you even talking about?

And yes Carlos, I'm so dumb I'll never have a good enough job to afford anything. Wink
"Seriously, what are you even talking about?

If you don't know, no one will be able to explain it to you.

"And yes Carlos, I'm so dumb I'll never have a good enough job to afford anything"

I will take your word for it. It seems like most 2 stroke fans complain about the price of 4 strokes as if they were poor and cannot afford them.
4/5/2012 2:23pm
mx757 wrote:
WWAT, I am sure dungey has multiple bikes, however you have to use the same bike all day. Cant just unload a new one for moto...
WWAT, I am sure dungey has multiple bikes, however you have to use the same bike all day. Cant just unload a new one for moto 2.
oh ok didnt know that . Seems like they could have just swapped motors but they didnt . Either way it didnt really matter . Dungey is a beast
reded
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4/5/2012 3:01pm
mx757 wrote:
WWAT, I am sure dungey has multiple bikes, however you have to use the same bike all day. Cant just unload a new one for moto...
WWAT, I am sure dungey has multiple bikes, however you have to use the same bike all day. Cant just unload a new one for moto 2.
oh ok didnt know that . Seems like they could have just swapped motors but they didnt . Either way it didnt really matter . Dungey...
oh ok didnt know that . Seems like they could have just swapped motors but they didnt . Either way it didnt really matter . Dungey is a beast
The End.
4/5/2012 3:14pm
newmann wrote:
For those who think a $3999.00 entry level dirt bike isn't possible. The 2011 Honda CBR250R retailed for $3999.00 and the 2012 model is $4099.00. 359...
For those who think a $3999.00 entry level dirt bike isn't possible. The 2011 Honda CBR250R retailed for $3999.00 and the 2012 model is $4099.00. 359 lb's of custom painted decked out street bike. So, HAHAHAHAHAHA have another one "brobob".

Could it compete with a race bike like a TZ250 in lightness, power, handling? Do you understand the difference between a race motocross bike that uses...
Could it compete with a race bike like a TZ250 in lightness, power, handling? Do you understand the difference between a race motocross bike that uses lighter more expensive parts for racing over a dumbed down commuter bike that weighs 359lbs.
This bike produces 23.7 hp (17.7 kW) @ 9,900 rpm
Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?
Here is what you get for 3999. Really, I don't know why I bother to even explain this. If you don't understand this simple concept, you will never be able to make sense of this issue or have enough intelligence to get a good enough job to even afford a 4 stroke or a 2 stroke with direct inject.
newmann wrote:
"Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?" Seriously, what are...
"Do you know how much you would have to spend to lower the weight and increase performance to match that of a YZ450?"


Seriously, what are you even talking about?

And yes Carlos, I'm so dumb I'll never have a good enough job to afford anything. Wink
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DrSweden
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4/5/2012 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 4/5/2012 3:19pm
Said it 5 years ago, and maybe 2 years ago, if "China" bough the old molds or whatever you call it to the CR125 post 2005, or similar, the price tag would probably end up being less than 3k both in Europe and in the US. I honestly think the sport would blossom...

But reason and sense doesn't always apply, and the world is far from perfect...
GuyB
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4/5/2012 4:14pm
Jay, let me guess...your favorite part of Disneyland is Fantasyland?
MBR
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FI
4/5/2012 4:31pm
In Finland for example Yamaha YZF 450 cost around 11 600 USD and KTM SX 250 around 10 500 USD. So maybe you should just enjoy what you have. I just love my 2012 CRF450, it's best bike I have ever had.
mark_swart
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Chapin, SC US
4/5/2012 5:05pm
newmann wrote:
I am still of the opinion that a KTM non linkage chassis (think 2011 KTM150) with a 200cc mid level performing air cooled non powervalved engine...
I am still of the opinion that a KTM non linkage chassis (think 2011 KTM150) with a 200cc mid level performing air cooled non powervalved engine and not necessarily top of the line components, brakes or suspension that retailed for $3999.00 would be a big hit and could be just the ticket to bring some people into or back to the sport. The aftermarket companies could provide the hop up parts like they did for the pit bikes.
I've given the same thing a lot of thought. Let's face it, if you put an entire 250 C class on 1987 CR 250s, they would probably all finish in exactly the same order and have the same racing experience as they would on modern bikes. But at 1/2 the cost of machinery and 1/2 the cost of maintenance. Shit, the laptimes might not even be much different.
So how do you make some sort of 'technology restricted' class viable into the amateur ranks? Bikes that are still capable of doing all of the obstacles, yet as you said not necessarily top of the line technology. Maybe restricting the MSRP could serve to restrict the technology?
The key to growth and survival would be some sort of championship that the bike classification could feed, as well as AMA classes that would be recognized nationwide.
As you know, a lot of the 'top of the line' components have been in their same basic form for 20 or more years. Linkage, twin chamber forks, disc brakes, powervalves.... all old and proven technology. The R & D money has already been recouped.
I'm sure we're living in a dreamland just thinking about it, but I'll tell you what: when I go to tracks nowadays, I see a surprising lack of 20-something riders. I see kids and I see older guys like me who are either getting back into it or riding with their kids. The extra $$ hits the twenty-somethings hard, I've been there and even in my 20s I was hard pressed to be able to race even though we were running two strokes back then (90s). Now it would be impossible. That's what needs to be fixed.
Outsider
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Huntington Beach, CA US
4/5/2012 5:58pm Edited Date/Time 4/5/2012 5:59pm
mxb2 wrote:
I thought this site was PC?, Tard?
dude I bristle every time I see that on this site. My nephew has downs syndrome, and experiencing him growing up, even as an uncle, has...
dude I bristle every time I see that on this site.

My nephew has downs syndrome, and experiencing him growing up, even as an uncle, has made me more aware that those terms (Vitard, tards, retards) are offensive.

If it was just you, him, and my brother, alone in a room, talking, would you say that most of the people posting on Vital are "retards"?

If you would, personally I think that's really sucky. If you wouldn't, then why is it cool to say behind someone's back?

I'm not PC guy, seriously... I'm not trying to call anyone out (it's not just the OP that says that stuff on this site, and I'm not going to name names, you know who you are); but maybe we could use something else. There are a lot of word options available, maybe use some creativity and come up with some new options.
OMG, what's next? Can't say Dummy any more cause there's a bunch of dummies on here?


Does your nephew read this site? Would he be offended?
4/5/2012 6:08pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
These are cutting edge racing machines and you want the manufactures to stop "evolving" them so they can be more affordable? That doesn't make much sense.
Overdrive
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Fort Myers, FL US
4/5/2012 6:14pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
I agree, they can keep the high tech 4 stroke for the pro's and the pro wanabees. Just start importing and selling the RM, CR and KX again. They don't need to be updated, just throw some BNG on them if need be, competition will keep the price in check. Yes we still have the yz and ktm, but they won't import enought to meet demand.

People just want affordable fun bikes to make memories with their friends and family on the weekends.

The high prices are killing off the grass roots of the sport. Local tracks have to run 50 zillion class's to make up for the low turn out of riders, heck practice days draw more than race days anymore.

It really doesn't matter if its 2 or 4, it just seems bringing back the "Vintage" 2 strokes would be the quick and easy alternative. 99% of the people who go to local races couldn't ride an RM 250 to its full potential anyways.
Overdrive
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Fort Myers, FL US
4/5/2012 6:29pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
e-socrates wrote:
These are cutting edge racing machines and you want the manufactures to stop "evolving" them so they can be more affordable? That doesn't make much sense.
When the majority of your target audience can't afford them, or the up keep on them then yes. If the prices keep going up then there will be no one to sell to. This is a HOBBY for most people, they do it for fun, not to be the next RV. They want to go out and mix it up with their buddies, not take out a home loan.
JB 19
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4/5/2012 6:59pm
CR500Rider wrote:
The fact of the matter is, 85-90 percent of riders on this board couldn't push a 93' CR250 to it's limits.
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me to go faster around turns which causes the smile on my face to get really big.

Wanna know why guys like 4 strokes? Cause they make you feel like a hero. Feeling like a hero is fun.
Overdrive
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4/5/2012 7:15pm
CR500Rider wrote:
The fact of the matter is, 85-90 percent of riders on this board couldn't push a 93' CR250 to it's limits.
JB 19 wrote:
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me...
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me to go faster around turns which causes the smile on my face to get really big.

Wanna know why guys like 4 strokes? Cause they make you feel like a hero. Feeling like a hero is fun.
Your not getting it, this isn't a pissing contest.

Keep your 250F and the smile it puts on your face, its not about taking your ride from you and your hero feeling. It's about allowing those who can't afford the 250f and its maintenance an economical alternative that is competitive. Something the majority of people can work on by themselves.

This is about building a sport that is dwindling away slowly but surely. Without budget minded racers the sport will continue to loose riding spots because of low turnout and lack of interest in anything but practice days.

I would venture to say most people can get that hero feel from a new 250f or a 07 RM 250. The more people getting that hero feeling is the GOAL! If bringing back an affordable alternative brings in more people its GOOD for everyone hero.
ATKpilot99
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4/5/2012 7:20pm


2012 Husqvarna 125 CR. $5999 MSRP and comes with a 144 kit.
mark_swart
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Chapin, SC US
4/5/2012 7:24pm
CR500Rider wrote:
The fact of the matter is, 85-90 percent of riders on this board couldn't push a 93' CR250 to it's limits.
JB 19 wrote:
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me...
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me to go faster around turns which causes the smile on my face to get really big.

Wanna know why guys like 4 strokes? Cause they make you feel like a hero. Feeling like a hero is fun.
Overdrive wrote:
Your not getting it, this isn't a pissing contest. Keep your 250F and the smile it puts on your face, its not about taking your ride...
Your not getting it, this isn't a pissing contest.

Keep your 250F and the smile it puts on your face, its not about taking your ride from you and your hero feeling. It's about allowing those who can't afford the 250f and its maintenance an economical alternative that is competitive. Something the majority of people can work on by themselves.

This is about building a sport that is dwindling away slowly but surely. Without budget minded racers the sport will continue to loose riding spots because of low turnout and lack of interest in anything but practice days.

I would venture to say most people can get that hero feel from a new 250f or a 07 RM 250. The more people getting that hero feeling is the GOAL! If bringing back an affordable alternative brings in more people its GOOD for everyone hero.
Two strokes don't actually have to run the way so many of them did, at least when you get to 250 + ccs. Add some flywheel weight, mellow out the porting, we all might be surprised....
wow123
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AX
4/5/2012 7:36pm
mark_swart wrote:
I've given the same thing a lot of thought. Let's face it, if you put an entire 250 C class on 1987 CR 250s, they would...
I've given the same thing a lot of thought. Let's face it, if you put an entire 250 C class on 1987 CR 250s, they would probably all finish in exactly the same order and have the same racing experience as they would on modern bikes. But at 1/2 the cost of machinery and 1/2 the cost of maintenance. Shit, the laptimes might not even be much different.
So how do you make some sort of 'technology restricted' class viable into the amateur ranks? Bikes that are still capable of doing all of the obstacles, yet as you said not necessarily top of the line technology. Maybe restricting the MSRP could serve to restrict the technology?
The key to growth and survival would be some sort of championship that the bike classification could feed, as well as AMA classes that would be recognized nationwide.
As you know, a lot of the 'top of the line' components have been in their same basic form for 20 or more years. Linkage, twin chamber forks, disc brakes, powervalves.... all old and proven technology. The R & D money has already been recouped.
I'm sure we're living in a dreamland just thinking about it, but I'll tell you what: when I go to tracks nowadays, I see a surprising lack of 20-something riders. I see kids and I see older guys like me who are either getting back into it or riding with their kids. The extra $$ hits the twenty-somethings hard, I've been there and even in my 20s I was hard pressed to be able to race even though we were running two strokes back then (90s). Now it would be impossible. That's what needs to be fixed.
The 20 somethings have always drifted out of the sport, many into sex and drugs and rocknroll.
Három
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Florida, FL US
4/5/2012 7:46pm
$1.00 in 1987 had the same buying power as $2.04 in 2012.
Annual inflation over this period was 2.90%.

Would one of you old timers please tell us what you paid for a top of the line race machine in '87?
CR500Rider
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San Antonio, TX US
4/5/2012 8:16pm
CR500Rider wrote:
The fact of the matter is, 85-90 percent of riders on this board couldn't push a 93' CR250 to it's limits.
JB 19 wrote:
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me...
I know I can push a new 250F much closer than a 93 CR 250 because the 250F is so much easier to ride...........which allows me to go faster around turns which causes the smile on my face to get really big.

Wanna know why guys like 4 strokes? Cause they make you feel like a hero. Feeling like a hero is fun.
You can push the 250f because of it's chassis/suspension. Stick the 93' CR250 engine into the CRF250 chassis and your lap times will drop. You still won't be near the potential of the engine. It's all about the chassis/suspension and has been for 20 years.
Montesa38
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4/5/2012 8:39pm
My 1982 CR480 was $2000 otd, 1983 CR480 $2200 and 1984 CR500 was about $2400 otd.......then a 1 ride 1985 CR500 was $2000 and then I picked up Jeff Wards backup 1987 KX500 for $1500 from my neighbor...
BobbyM
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4/5/2012 8:40pm Edited Date/Time 4/5/2012 9:01pm
I guess that's where you and I differ. I would use that term because I don't see your nephew as retarded. He has Downs Syndrome. If...
I guess that's where you and I differ. I would use that term because I don't see your nephew as retarded. He has Downs Syndrome. If I use that term it's because it applies to someone who has their head up their ass. I'm not PC either, to a certain point. But life isn't an ass kissing fest either. Living PROOF? VitalMX. It's sad that some people have to live with those type of afflictions.
The other day a guy told me a racist joke. Ended with that classic "N" word. You might be shocked. As was I. Especially when I tell you he was he is "African Canadian". The man obviously has a sense of humor. You might almost think HE'S not very PC either.
I understand your point of view; you don't see him as retarded, nor do I. He is just a little sensitive to that term, is all...
I understand your point of view; you don't see him as retarded, nor do I.

He is just a little sensitive to that term, is all. It's not about how you or I feel about it.

I guess it doesn't matter, it's not the end of the world, use it if you like; alternatives aren't bad though.

I think you can joke about yourself all you like; it's when you joke about others...
Nobody is joking on yer nephew or anybody that is...whatever the buzzword for retarded is these days. But yer right ...if you can't come up with something creative you shouldn't have to resort to an offensive word that may bother somebody...although i have found that if something bothers me it is i who has
the problem...not them. In life it isn't the pitchers fault if i haven't learned to catch fastball...nope, quite the contrary. Yer nephew had to learn to be offended by the word...you can teach him how to not be offended....or something like that.
jmar
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Oklahoma City, OK US
4/5/2012 10:20pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
I agree with this for the weekend warrior.

But the thumpers are much safer for AMA PRO level racing.
newmann
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US
4/5/2012 10:33pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
jmar wrote:
I agree with this for the weekend warrior.

But the thumpers are much safer for AMA PRO level racing.
Much safer? How so?
jmar
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4/5/2012 10:38pm
500guy wrote:
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable. I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or...
Stop evolving these bikes and start working on making them more affordable.

I mean a guy can have fun on most any modern bike 2strk or 4 strk who cares, get them back to $3500. -$4500 and lets go play.
jmar wrote:
I agree with this for the weekend warrior.

But the thumpers are much safer for AMA PRO level racing.
newmann wrote:
Much safer? How so?
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman.

Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving.

With that said. The last time i looked, NASCAR fans weren't insisting that the top NASCAR drivers, race the same cars that you and I drive everyday.

Common sense goes a long ways.
NorcalVet
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4/5/2012 11:28pm
..... I have a new use for my FI- RMZ 450

- i used for my sight laps, then I broke out my slightly used ($2000) RM 250
(I had about 6 plus people come up and compliment me on the smoker)

the smell of pre-mix !

newmann
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4/5/2012 11:53pm
jmar wrote:
I agree with this for the weekend warrior.

But the thumpers are much safer for AMA PRO level racing.
newmann wrote:
Much safer? How so?
jmar wrote:
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman. Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving. With that...
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman.

Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving.

With that said. The last time i looked, NASCAR fans weren't insisting that the top NASCAR drivers, race the same cars that you and I drive everyday.

Common sense goes a long ways.
Nascar? Ford, Chevy and Toyota do not sell those cars at the local dealer to the general public. Yamaha, Suzuki etc. on the other hand do sell those 250 and 450's to the general public. And for the most part, that is all they sell. If this were 1974-1980 where Honda raced 400 and 500cc bikes in the pro ranks yet only offered a 250 to the buying public you would have a valid point.

About the safety issue, common sense and a quick look at the injury list for AMA pro racing would tell a different story. The double displacement bikes have upped the game and have some pretty insane speeds which leads to them being somewhat less than forgiving. CC /CC, I would agree, double displacement not so much.Just my opinion though.
reded
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4/6/2012 5:01am
newmann wrote:
Much safer? How so?
jmar wrote:
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman. Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving. With that...
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman.

Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving.

With that said. The last time i looked, NASCAR fans weren't insisting that the top NASCAR drivers, race the same cars that you and I drive everyday.

Common sense goes a long ways.
newmann wrote:
Nascar? Ford, Chevy and Toyota do not sell those cars at the local dealer to the general public. Yamaha, Suzuki etc. on the other hand do...
Nascar? Ford, Chevy and Toyota do not sell those cars at the local dealer to the general public. Yamaha, Suzuki etc. on the other hand do sell those 250 and 450's to the general public. And for the most part, that is all they sell. If this were 1974-1980 where Honda raced 400 and 500cc bikes in the pro ranks yet only offered a 250 to the buying public you would have a valid point.

About the safety issue, common sense and a quick look at the injury list for AMA pro racing would tell a different story. The double displacement bikes have upped the game and have some pretty insane speeds which leads to them being somewhat less than forgiving. CC /CC, I would agree, double displacement not so much.Just my opinion though.
Newmann you're definitely on to something. As I recall, during the 90's there were very few riders who didn't finish the SX season. Now we have very few riders who DO finish the season. Greg Albertyn made up the majority of the highlight reel back then and even he finished a couple of seasons.
Overdrive
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4/6/2012 5:09am
newmann wrote:
Much safer? How so?
jmar wrote:
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman. Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving. With that...
Do I really have to explain this? You are much smarter than this Newman.

Four strokes are much more tractable, and much more forgiving.

With that said. The last time i looked, NASCAR fans weren't insisting that the top NASCAR drivers, race the same cars that you and I drive everyday.

Common sense goes a long ways.
newmann wrote:
Nascar? Ford, Chevy and Toyota do not sell those cars at the local dealer to the general public. Yamaha, Suzuki etc. on the other hand do...
Nascar? Ford, Chevy and Toyota do not sell those cars at the local dealer to the general public. Yamaha, Suzuki etc. on the other hand do sell those 250 and 450's to the general public. And for the most part, that is all they sell. If this were 1974-1980 where Honda raced 400 and 500cc bikes in the pro ranks yet only offered a 250 to the buying public you would have a valid point.

About the safety issue, common sense and a quick look at the injury list for AMA pro racing would tell a different story. The double displacement bikes have upped the game and have some pretty insane speeds which leads to them being somewhat less than forgiving. CC /CC, I would agree, double displacement not so much.Just my opinion though.
I would have to agree with newmann on the injuries, especially after the last few years. There is no way to prove it but the power and the weight most surely make them less forgiving.
davis224
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Fantasy
4/6/2012 5:46am
88sdad wrote:
Are you saying I should go try a burger at the new Five Guys that just opened?
Yes, they're delicious. But then you have to live with the fact that you've put 5 guys inside of you...
rocrac
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4/6/2012 6:00am
This sport sadly misses the $1,500 used 125 that dad and son can afford to rebuild and be competitve from the back of their late model pickup truck.

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