Fork assembly tips anyone?

DrSweden
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DrSweden
Edited Date/Time 2/11/2012 5:18pm
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them today, probably in an hour or so. 4 questions:

1. Does any aftermarket fork seal kit beat the OEM one as in material, tolerances (I already bough the OEM kit)?

2. Is there a way to assemble and decrease the risk of increased stiction? Guides opening facing in some direction? I'm pretty sure using a proper fork slider that makes the guides sit properly in the seats is better than any home made gadget some use. But any tips here would be appreciated.

3. Have you noticed any difference between similar forks as in tolerances, meaning some seems have a better fitment internally than others and as a consequence work with less stiction? I have own and worked on, 6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers, and feel only two felt good. I'm not talking about right valving.

4. U guys use the Showa oils, or u use aftermarket? I hear the Showa works the best, people have measured stiction and viscosity and seems Showa HP? has done their job.
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slipdog
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slipdog 2/10/2012 8:35am
2/10/2012 8:35am Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 8:37am
DrSweden wrote:
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them...
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them today, probably in an hour or so. 4 questions:

1. Does any aftermarket fork seal kit beat the OEM one as in material, tolerances (I already bough the OEM kit)?

2. Is there a way to assemble and decrease the risk of increased stiction? Guides opening facing in some direction? I'm pretty sure using a proper fork slider that makes the guides sit properly in the seats is better than any home made gadget some use. But any tips here would be appreciated.

3. Have you noticed any difference between similar forks as in tolerances, meaning some seems have a better fitment internally than others and as a consequence work with less stiction? I have own and worked on, 6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers, and feel only two felt good. I'm not talking about right valving.

4. U guys use the Showa oils, or u use aftermarket? I hear the Showa works the best, people have measured stiction and viscosity and seems Showa HP? has done their job.
1. NOK brand only, aftermarket is never as good no matter what they claim. (OEM or NOK under the Pro-X name)

2. A little heat in the tube will allow the seals and bushings to be removed and installed easier with less chance of damage (removal).

3. Don't use a 46mm seal driver on Showa twinchambers because they are 47mm. lol!

4. I always use KYB oil but Showa oil is just as good. The Japanese oil is blended with different base stock(came from KYB tech) and is better than most other oils. My testing has shown that to be true, not in performance but in the overall longevity of the oil.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do just fine!
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 8:38am
2/10/2012 8:38am
A bit to late for that... Does anyone know if a visible good guide meaning intact teflon for the eye is good enough? Or should one always use new stuff every time we do this? Fork only has 20h...
jtomasik
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jtomasik 2/10/2012 8:49am
2/10/2012 8:49am
Nut up and just put in new bushings. Ya' got it torn apart.

Here's one piece of advice most here won't agree with...I use the cheap Honda fork oil. I used to spend bookoo bucks on the "good" stuff, and I struggled keeping my forks from leaking. I was in a pinch, had to change the oil in both my and my son's bikes, bought the basic Honda oil, and neither have leaked one bit. Just my experience...your mileage may vary...

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DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 9:08am
2/10/2012 9:08am
slipdog wrote:
1. NOK brand only, aftermarket is never as good no matter what they claim. (OEM or NOK under the Pro-X name) 2. A little heat in...
1. NOK brand only, aftermarket is never as good no matter what they claim. (OEM or NOK under the Pro-X name)

2. A little heat in the tube will allow the seals and bushings to be removed and installed easier with less chance of damage (removal).

3. Don't use a 46mm seal driver on Showa twinchambers because they are 47mm. lol!

4. I always use KYB oil but Showa oil is just as good. The Japanese oil is blended with different base stock(came from KYB tech) and is better than most other oils. My testing has shown that to be true, not in performance but in the overall longevity of the oil.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll do just fine!
Good info! Using an heat gun since 2005! So that's covered! Good i agree about the oils. Any idea about recycling material and if it matters in what direction the guide openings are facing?
slipdog
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slipdog 2/10/2012 9:09am
2/10/2012 9:09am
If you see no scratches in the teflon and it's not thin (can see the metal through) look to the non teflon side. If more then 50% of the copper color is gone replace them because the tolerances are loose. It's always best to replace because sometimes unseen damage from dissasemble will cause binding. When in doubt always replace.
slipdog
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slipdog 2/10/2012 9:21am
2/10/2012 9:21am
Also, I believe if you check pricing Kawasaki parts are the least expensive. 47mm Showas are 47mm Showas. Honda (pre '09), Suzuki (Rmz '06 & up) and Kawasaki ('07 & up 250f) all use them.
mxtech1
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mxtech1 2/10/2012 9:51am
2/10/2012 9:51am
DrSweden wrote:
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them...
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them today, probably in an hour or so. 4 questions:

1. Does any aftermarket fork seal kit beat the OEM one as in material, tolerances (I already bough the OEM kit)?

2. Is there a way to assemble and decrease the risk of increased stiction? Guides opening facing in some direction? I'm pretty sure using a proper fork slider that makes the guides sit properly in the seats is better than any home made gadget some use. But any tips here would be appreciated.

3. Have you noticed any difference between similar forks as in tolerances, meaning some seems have a better fitment internally than others and as a consequence work with less stiction? I have own and worked on, 6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers, and feel only two felt good. I'm not talking about right valving.

4. U guys use the Showa oils, or u use aftermarket? I hear the Showa works the best, people have measured stiction and viscosity and seems Showa HP? has done their job.
Seem to be asking some pretty basic questions from someone that's worked on "6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers"

IMO, you do one set, one time...nothing will change within that given model fork even if you do 1,000 sets.

It riddles me that you seem to question the tolerances and fitment of mass-produced, accurate, and repeatable parts made 100% on CNC machining centers, forbearing the thought that every single one of those parts rides on an O-ring or bushing. It MUST be that you keep getting bad parts inside your forks from the factory, those damn Japanese are sneaky and tricky, not to consider you can't remember the last time you replaced wear items inside your suspension or how to inspect them and tell when they have become worn.

As far as oil, I would be more concerned about your performance hindering mechanical skills than thinking you'll be able to feel a minute difference of stiction caused by variances in oil viscosity between brands.
500guy
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500guy 2/10/2012 10:21am
2/10/2012 10:21am
DrSweden wrote:
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them...
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them today, probably in an hour or so. 4 questions:

1. Does any aftermarket fork seal kit beat the OEM one as in material, tolerances (I already bough the OEM kit)?

2. Is there a way to assemble and decrease the risk of increased stiction? Guides opening facing in some direction? I'm pretty sure using a proper fork slider that makes the guides sit properly in the seats is better than any home made gadget some use. But any tips here would be appreciated.

3. Have you noticed any difference between similar forks as in tolerances, meaning some seems have a better fitment internally than others and as a consequence work with less stiction? I have own and worked on, 6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers, and feel only two felt good. I'm not talking about right valving.

4. U guys use the Showa oils, or u use aftermarket? I hear the Showa works the best, people have measured stiction and viscosity and seems Showa HP? has done their job.
mxtech1 wrote:
Seem to be asking some pretty basic questions from someone that's worked on "6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers" IMO, you do one set, one time...nothing...
Seem to be asking some pretty basic questions from someone that's worked on "6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers"

IMO, you do one set, one time...nothing will change within that given model fork even if you do 1,000 sets.

It riddles me that you seem to question the tolerances and fitment of mass-produced, accurate, and repeatable parts made 100% on CNC machining centers, forbearing the thought that every single one of those parts rides on an O-ring or bushing. It MUST be that you keep getting bad parts inside your forks from the factory, those damn Japanese are sneaky and tricky, not to consider you can't remember the last time you replaced wear items inside your suspension or how to inspect them and tell when they have become worn.

As far as oil, I would be more concerned about your performance hindering mechanical skills than thinking you'll be able to feel a minute difference of stiction caused by variances in oil viscosity between brands.
He's a Dr, IE: "Still Practicing"

New slogan for MXTech, Practicing Suspension repair since ________ LMAO
mxtech1
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mxtech1 2/10/2012 10:29am
2/10/2012 10:29am
500Guy

Off-topic here, but i believe I met you one time on a Saturday night before the 2007 Glen Helen National. I was working for #443 Jeff Mort and you did a video on him.

If memory serves...you served us some pretty tasty tacos and a few beers and some good stories
526
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526 2/10/2012 10:42am
2/10/2012 10:42am
I gather mxtech1 is NOT a big fan of DIY's
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 1:33pm
2/10/2012 1:33pm
mxtech1 wrote:
Seem to be asking some pretty basic questions from someone that's worked on "6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers" IMO, you do one set, one time...nothing...
Seem to be asking some pretty basic questions from someone that's worked on "6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers"

IMO, you do one set, one time...nothing will change within that given model fork even if you do 1,000 sets.

It riddles me that you seem to question the tolerances and fitment of mass-produced, accurate, and repeatable parts made 100% on CNC machining centers, forbearing the thought that every single one of those parts rides on an O-ring or bushing. It MUST be that you keep getting bad parts inside your forks from the factory, those damn Japanese are sneaky and tricky, not to consider you can't remember the last time you replaced wear items inside your suspension or how to inspect them and tell when they have become worn.

As far as oil, I would be more concerned about your performance hindering mechanical skills than thinking you'll be able to feel a minute difference of stiction caused by variances in oil viscosity between brands.
Dunno if it's basic questions? But previous low budget have forced me to buy shitty bikes with leaking forks, add to my experience I have worked with some KYB as well! So seems I'm an "expert" in the issue!Grinning Forks are pretty sophisticated, and previous ambitions was only to stop leaking without giving the rest of the mechanism much though. Now when my awareness has increased after experience of two sets of really good forks I feel an urge to make the following sets as good. Local guy doing this is malfunctioning, but know how to drain the wallet. Also, this is a good topic I think.Dry

I feel I can do a better job, and just need some input how to perform better...Grinning
fcr
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fcr 2/10/2012 1:38pm
2/10/2012 1:38pm
There must be a uTube video on this, the other thing is Transworld had some how too's for seal replacement.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 1:40pm
2/10/2012 1:40pm
slipdog wrote:
If you see no scratches in the teflon and it's not thin (can see the metal through) look to the non teflon side. If more then...
If you see no scratches in the teflon and it's not thin (can see the metal through) look to the non teflon side. If more then 50% of the copper color is gone replace them because the tolerances are loose. It's always best to replace because sometimes unseen damage from dissasemble will cause binding. When in doubt always replace.
Cool, so more wear on the copper as in the no friction/inside means more play which equals more stiction? I was actually going to ask if one could sand down the guide spaces/seats on the outer tube to create more play and hopefully gain less stiction? But that could actually be the problem to start with!

Tnx for your input! Good advice about buying Kawasaki parts!
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 1:42pm
2/10/2012 1:42pm
fcr wrote:
There must be a uTube video on this, the other thing is Transworld had some how too's for seal replacement.
There must be a uTube video on this, the other thing is Transworld had some how too's for seal replacement.
I think I know the principles pretty ok, seems there might be some final touch that I'm missing?
500guy
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500guy 2/10/2012 2:25pm
2/10/2012 2:25pm
mxtech1 wrote:
500Guy Off-topic here, but i believe I met you one time on a Saturday night before the 2007 Glen Helen National. I was working for #443...
500Guy

Off-topic here, but i believe I met you one time on a Saturday night before the 2007 Glen Helen National. I was working for #443 Jeff Mort and you did a video on him.

If memory serves...you served us some pretty tasty tacos and a few beers and some good stories
Yes

But that was Hangtown, Ken, Big Jimmy and all the gang were in charge of Taco's , That was good stuff.
slipdog
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slipdog 2/10/2012 6:31pm
2/10/2012 6:31pm
DrSweden wrote:
Cool, so more wear on the copper as in the no friction/inside means more play which equals more stiction? I was actually going to ask if...
Cool, so more wear on the copper as in the no friction/inside means more play which equals more stiction? I was actually going to ask if one could sand down the guide spaces/seats on the outer tube to create more play and hopefully gain less stiction? But that could actually be the problem to start with!

Tnx for your input! Good advice about buying Kawasaki parts!
You would be correct, the more they wear out the more stiction/bind they create. The tighter the bushings are the smoother the tubes will slide.
easton
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easton 2/10/2012 6:35pm
2/10/2012 6:35pm
Take the plastic bag the seals come in and place them over the forks when you slide the seal on. This will keep any cutting or gauging from the sharp edge of the fork. Hey Measure your oil and pump the air out and ride hard.


Do Ice racers ever blow fork seals...............

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EvanR127
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EvanR127 2/10/2012 8:16pm
2/10/2012 8:16pm
-Stock yamaha seals are the worst

-Moose makes good aftermarket seals

-Homemade driver: Old seal and pvc pipe cut in half works great

-Zip block bag on fork when putting the bushings on
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/11/2012 7:23am
2/11/2012 7:23am
easton wrote:
Take the plastic bag the seals come in and place them over the forks when you slide the seal on. This will keep any cutting or...
Take the plastic bag the seals come in and place them over the forks when you slide the seal on. This will keep any cutting or gauging from the sharp edge of the fork. Hey Measure your oil and pump the air out and ride hard.


Do Ice racers ever blow fork seals...............
That's a good tip as well, I use electrical tape to create the same effect!
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/11/2012 7:28am
2/11/2012 7:28am
slipdog wrote:
You would be correct, the more they wear out the more stiction/bind they create. The tighter the bushings are the smoother the tubes will slide.
Sorry to ask again, but the lack of copper thing only applies to the upper guide I assume? The lower one that is sitting in outer tube with teflon facing inwards seems to be pretty firmly set in its place, especially considering u use these sliders to hammer it down?
mxtech1
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mxtech1 2/11/2012 8:13am
2/11/2012 8:13am
slipdog wrote:
You would be correct, the more they wear out the more stiction/bind they create. The tighter the bushings are the smoother the tubes will slide.
DrSweden wrote:
Sorry to ask again, but the lack of copper thing only applies to the upper guide I assume? The lower one that is sitting in outer...
Sorry to ask again, but the lack of copper thing only applies to the upper guide I assume? The lower one that is sitting in outer tube with teflon facing inwards seems to be pretty firmly set in its place, especially considering u use these sliders to hammer it down?
The bottom bushing holds the outer fork tube on center of the inner for tube. If the bottom bushing is worn it will cause the fork tube to ride unevenly on the bushing and wear it. So to answer your question, it is equally important that both bushing are in good shape.

Your biggest gain will be making sure the inner cartridge is properly bled. You must make sure when you depress the fork rod it extends to the stop on the return stroke. If it doesn't, it will pack up and the fork will not extend to its maximum stroke.
slipdog
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slipdog 2/11/2012 8:58am
2/11/2012 8:58am Edited Date/Time 2/11/2012 9:38am
DrSweden wrote:
Sorry to ask again, but the lack of copper thing only applies to the upper guide I assume? The lower one that is sitting in outer...
Sorry to ask again, but the lack of copper thing only applies to the upper guide I assume? The lower one that is sitting in outer tube with teflon facing inwards seems to be pretty firmly set in its place, especially considering u use these sliders to hammer it down?
Hope this helps Doc.

Yes it applies to both. I took these from my phone yesterday so they are not exactly Ddavis quality.Wink

The top bushings are new, the bottom ones show slight wear but are still good to use.


The top ones show wear on both and I would replace because they are becoming loose. the bottom ones are wasted and should have been replaced many hours ago.


The one on the left is the inside of the wasted bushing and you can see the teflon is almost gone and the metal shows through, not good at all. the one on the right is showing teflon damage from a roost nick in the slide tube that took out the seal and bushing.

Edit: The one on left is not the same one as in 2nd photo(been busy in the shop lately) but is is a good example of badly worn teflon
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/11/2012 12:33pm
2/11/2012 12:33pm
I feel a bit ashamed here, got more info than I deserve it feels. Tnx a lot, especially slipdog! Good people around here no doubt!
Gabriel J
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Gabriel J 2/11/2012 12:43pm
2/11/2012 12:43pm Edited Date/Time 2/11/2012 12:45pm
Marc,

I'm pretty positive that SKF makes lower-friction seals that would fit your Showa forks. They make them for mtn bike forks as well with excellent reviews.

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?contentId=879358

http://www.ridejbi.com/skf-fork-seals/

And I prefer the Pro-Honda Showa suspension fluid when I'm doing rebuilds. Price is right, and it works great.
neverwas 2/11/2012 12:46pm
2/11/2012 12:46pm
DrSweden wrote:
I feel a bit ashamed here, got more info than I deserve it feels. Tnx a lot, especially slipdog! Good people around here no doubt!
Vital comes through.
Great thread,learned a few things
slipdog
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slipdog 2/11/2012 4:36pm
2/11/2012 4:36pm
DrSweden wrote:
I feel a bit ashamed here, got more info than I deserve it feels. Tnx a lot, especially slipdog! Good people around here no doubt!
Glad I was able to restore your faith in humanity. Laughing
Renner153
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Renner153 2/11/2012 5:18pm
2/11/2012 5:18pm
DrSweden wrote:
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them...
My Showas went leaking badly after some mudders, tried to "clean them" with a feeler gauge but, but they are toasted. So going to fix them today, probably in an hour or so. 4 questions:

1. Does any aftermarket fork seal kit beat the OEM one as in material, tolerances (I already bough the OEM kit)?

2. Is there a way to assemble and decrease the risk of increased stiction? Guides opening facing in some direction? I'm pretty sure using a proper fork slider that makes the guides sit properly in the seats is better than any home made gadget some use. But any tips here would be appreciated.

3. Have you noticed any difference between similar forks as in tolerances, meaning some seems have a better fitment internally than others and as a consequence work with less stiction? I have own and worked on, 6 sets of Showa 46 Twinchambers, and feel only two felt good. I'm not talking about right valving.

4. U guys use the Showa oils, or u use aftermarket? I hear the Showa works the best, people have measured stiction and viscosity and seems Showa HP? has done their job.
1. Www.active-ride.com

2. Www.active-ride.com

3. Www.active-ride.com

4. Www.active-ride.com

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