Good read on Yamaha written by Matthes

IceMan446
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Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 12:02pm
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2/9/2012 8:39am
I think Matthes has a grudge against Yamaha ehh?
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 8:49am
I think he is just shedding some light on the Yamaha setup issues.

Explains a lot as to why James or anyone else cant seem to get a set up they like.

No one to do testing year round and they havent had a solid base to work off of. And its a brand new bike.

Grudge? Nah I dont think so.
2/9/2012 8:50am
I think he is concerened, and doesnt want to see them go down the shitter, and he knows at this point the only weapon in his arsenal is not the wrench, but the pen.
Matt Wozney
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2/9/2012 8:52am
Interesting read. I think most of the reason behind that write up was to show what the riders/teams were saying about the bikes (250 and 450) and the lack of effort for support from Yamaha for their top pro riders/teams. I've noticed this plenty of times with the riders I talk to. It seems like riding a Yamaha 450 today is like riding a Cannondale all of a sudden? ("You're riding that?") If JGR is simply running their own program, it doesn't seem like Yamaha is offering much input into what they created.

A hint of it might seem like a Matthes-grudge to some but I doubt his goal with this was to light a bridge up. If the riders/teams are talking about it, why shouldn't he?

The Shop

josh8811
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2/9/2012 9:18am
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 9:43am
josh8811 wrote:
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes...
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
I dont think he is saying that is why James isnt winning. He is saying that it may be part of the reason. Bike set up. Which we all can see.

Its just weird, Yamaha comes out with a brand new bike the same year they pull out of racing. So who is left to do all of the R&D???

The riders.

And Yamaha hasnt had a good rider on that bike long enough to test it, see what works and what doeant. Every other team has a lot of work in their bikes and some teams have a dedicated test rider.

JGR is making their own stuff and can only see how it works in competition. No test rider or factory help. Now with a full off season, they will be a lot better coming into next year but that doesnt help this year much.
tblazier
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2/9/2012 9:43am
IceMan446 wrote:
I think he is just shedding some light on the Yamaha setup issues. Explains a lot as to why James or anyone else cant seem to...
I think he is just shedding some light on the Yamaha setup issues.

Explains a lot as to why James or anyone else cant seem to get a set up they like.

No one to do testing year round and they havent had a solid base to work off of. And its a brand new bike.

Grudge? Nah I dont think so.
x2
sozo
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2/9/2012 9:48am
All Yamaha has to do is frigin tweak the frame moving the motor 1 inch forward getting more weight on the front wheel which will offer more setup options for each rider. Who knows It might be the best bike if Yamaha would develop the frame.. its been 3 frigin years just do it already...!
8tensolutions
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2/9/2012 9:49am
josh8811 wrote:
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes...
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
Sure, he was only a factory level mechanic for over a decade with near pro racing experience but he doesn't know anything.
Underdog999
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2/9/2012 10:08am
josh8811 wrote:
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes...
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
IceMan446 wrote:
I dont think he is saying that is why James isnt winning. He is saying that it may be part of the reason. Bike set up...
I dont think he is saying that is why James isnt winning. He is saying that it may be part of the reason. Bike set up. Which we all can see.

Its just weird, Yamaha comes out with a brand new bike the same year they pull out of racing. So who is left to do all of the R&D???

The riders.

And Yamaha hasnt had a good rider on that bike long enough to test it, see what works and what doeant. Every other team has a lot of work in their bikes and some teams have a dedicated test rider.

JGR is making their own stuff and can only see how it works in competition. No test rider or factory help. Now with a full off season, they will be a lot better coming into next year but that doesnt help this year much.
"So who is left to do all of the R&D???

The riders."

Not true. Just off the top of my head I know 2 guys who test for them.
MT MX
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2/9/2012 10:13am
I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying this, but it makes you wonder if this is one reason why James has never raced outdoors on the Yamaha (except for Unadilla that one year). Some of what Matthes said was kind of obvious, but some of it makes you think though. I'm not surprised the Dungey passed on JGR if their support from Yamaha is so limited. Kinda risky transition. Another thought I had was, I wonder if JGR is going after Yamaha to take control of their outdoor motorcycle dept.? Hmmmmmm....
newmann
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2/9/2012 10:21am
I think he just pointed out what so many Vitalites refuse to accept. No one is racing the bike at the pro level that isn't getting paid to. Speaks volumes.Wink
beamer
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2/9/2012 10:23am
As mentioned, Honda has McGrath and I think that has obviously been huge in bike development. What about a guy like Dubach, who seems extremely loyal to the Yamaha, to help develop the machine. Or maybe he does already?? If Yamaha is really not helping out the independent race teams how much support could he be pulling in the name of development. I realize Dubach also has his own deal (Dr. D), but push come to shove I think a guy like him would be a huge asset.
Underdog999
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2/9/2012 10:24am
beamer wrote:
As mentioned, Honda has McGrath and I think that has obviously been huge in bike development. What about a guy like Dubach, who seems extremely loyal...
As mentioned, Honda has McGrath and I think that has obviously been huge in bike development. What about a guy like Dubach, who seems extremely loyal to the Yamaha, to help develop the machine. Or maybe he does already?? If Yamaha is really not helping out the independent race teams how much support could he be pulling in the name of development. I realize Dubach also has his own deal (Dr. D), but push come to shove I think a guy like him would be a huge asset.
Bingo....he already does.
Underdog999
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2/9/2012 10:26am
newmann wrote:
I think he just pointed out what so many Vitalites refuse to accept. No one is racing the bike at the pro level that isn't getting...
I think he just pointed out what so many Vitalites refuse to accept. No one is racing the bike at the pro level that isn't getting paid to. Speaks volumes.Wink
My stepson who is a pro, rides the 250 in sx right now, but will be switching to the 450 for outdoors.

He isn't getting paid to ride it.
bryan
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2/9/2012 10:31am
Any rumors about the '13 bike? Given everything Steve mentioned, I'd wonder if they shared any plans to change the bike soon to make JGR/Stew's contracts easier to swallow.

/extreme-speculation
2/9/2012 10:49am
Interesting read, pretty frank stuff.

Not to get into a magazine debate but I remember almost all the publications bar MXA glad handing this bike when it first came out. Some of those articles look pretty silly now. To be fair, just like the Honda in 09 I think the Yamaha has bags of potential. If it didn't then no one would win on it at all - yet James won races last year, has looked much better these past two weeks and it's a proven machine on the GP circuit. I think the article by Steve there is a probable scenario. Unlike Honda - Yamaha have been caught with their pants down longer than necessary due to poor R&D support and a general lack of interest since launch.
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 10:49am
josh8811 wrote:
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes...
Matthes isn't saying very much.. I think for us mortals the YZ is a great bike. Blaming the bike for James's poor results is comical. Matthes is a talking head funny guy and should avoid engineering speak.
IceMan446 wrote:
I dont think he is saying that is why James isnt winning. He is saying that it may be part of the reason. Bike set up...
I dont think he is saying that is why James isnt winning. He is saying that it may be part of the reason. Bike set up. Which we all can see.

Its just weird, Yamaha comes out with a brand new bike the same year they pull out of racing. So who is left to do all of the R&D???

The riders.

And Yamaha hasnt had a good rider on that bike long enough to test it, see what works and what doeant. Every other team has a lot of work in their bikes and some teams have a dedicated test rider.

JGR is making their own stuff and can only see how it works in competition. No test rider or factory help. Now with a full off season, they will be a lot better coming into next year but that doesnt help this year much.
"So who is left to do all of the R&D??? The riders." Not true. Just off the top of my head I know 2 guys who...
"So who is left to do all of the R&D???

The riders."

Not true. Just off the top of my head I know 2 guys who test for them.
Who has been testing that bike that is a good supercross rider?

And you can say James and Davey. Yes they do test but they have to go through the whole laundry list of what does and doesnt work since they have no real base. Especially for James.

Like I said, next year should be better. Besides James, JGR hasnt had someone with that much speed ride the bike at its limits or past it to see what will or wont happen.

And Dubach would help with an outdoor setup but not an SX setup. JGR needs a guy like Jeremy or RC to test and develope the bike.
Huckster
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2/9/2012 10:50am
and don't forget his boy Ferry was doing some testing for James a while back....I bet he knows a thing or two about how to set up a bike and what the limitations are with an existing chasis/engine, etc.....
Matthes
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2/9/2012 10:57am
Thanks for reading everyone and here's the Coles notes version of the story:

I believe that bike would be better if Yamaha had a factory team and a full set of engineers working on it. It would be better at the pro level (and it's supported teams wouldn't be lost when it comes to setting it up) and that would trickle down to the production level. They've built this brand new bike with all this innovation and then failed to do the proper R&D (at the racing level) to help it out.

Like Honda did with its 2009 bike that was last in a lot of shootouts and now, with some refinements, isn't anymore.
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 10:59am
Interesting read, pretty frank stuff. Not to get into a magazine debate but I remember almost all the publications bar MXA glad handing this bike when...
Interesting read, pretty frank stuff.

Not to get into a magazine debate but I remember almost all the publications bar MXA glad handing this bike when it first came out. Some of those articles look pretty silly now. To be fair, just like the Honda in 09 I think the Yamaha has bags of potential. If it didn't then no one would win on it at all - yet James won races last year, has looked much better these past two weeks and it's a proven machine on the GP circuit. I think the article by Steve there is a probable scenario. Unlike Honda - Yamaha have been caught with their pants down longer than necessary due to poor R&D support and a general lack of interest since launch.
I think for the average dude the bike is good. But the pros arent just jumping doubles and popping wheelies!

Its just funny to me that Yamaha would build a brand new bike and not have their guys doing R&D for the first two or three years. They need to get the bike user friendly and some R&D will help the average guy and the pros.
lucero10x
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2/9/2012 11:02am
MT MX wrote:
I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying this, but it makes you wonder if this is one reason why James has never raced outdoors on the...
I'm sure I'll get crucified for saying this, but it makes you wonder if this is one reason why James has never raced outdoors on the Yamaha (except for Unadilla that one year). Some of what Matthes said was kind of obvious, but some of it makes you think though. I'm not surprised the Dungey passed on JGR if their support from Yamaha is so limited. Kinda risky transition. Another thought I had was, I wonder if JGR is going after Yamaha to take control of their outdoor motorcycle dept.? Hmmmmmm....
Or, at least offer to sell them their R&D info. Very interesting. However, it does nothing for developing an all new model. Without the OEM's involvement/commitment it doesn't seem as though an "all new" version would ever be possible, only revisions to the current model which would basically be putting lipstick on a pig, over time.
Underdog999
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2/9/2012 11:26am Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 2:59pm
Matthes wrote:
Thanks for reading everyone and here's the Coles notes version of the story: I believe that bike would be better if Yamaha had a factory team...
Thanks for reading everyone and here's the Coles notes version of the story:

I believe that bike would be better if Yamaha had a factory team and a full set of engineers working on it. It would be better at the pro level (and it's supported teams wouldn't be lost when it comes to setting it up) and that would trickle down to the production level. They've built this brand new bike with all this innovation and then failed to do the proper R&D (at the racing level) to help it out.

Like Honda did with its 2009 bike that was last in a lot of shootouts and now, with some refinements, isn't anymore.
What is "proper R&D (at the racing level)" exactly ? IYO?
mxdude105
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2/9/2012 12:58pm
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to see how James would do against the current competition on a works/JGR YZ250 race bike. He finished 4th out of the big four last year and is currently sitting in the same spot with the same issues he was having in 2011. Why not try it for a few races? What does he/they really have to lose? I have to believe that If you were to put someone of James' skill level on a bike that weighs less and handles better he could be competitive. Or at least as competitive as he has been thus far.
Lightning78
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2/9/2012 1:07pm
Huckster wrote:
and don't forget his boy Ferry was doing some testing for James a while back....I bet he knows a thing or two about how to set...
and don't forget his boy Ferry was doing some testing for James a while back....I bet he knows a thing or two about how to set up a bike and what the limitations are with an existing chasis/engine, etc.....
And after one day of testing Ferry wanted to quit and burn the bike
Lightning78
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2/9/2012 1:12pm
mxdude105 wrote:
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to...
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to see how James would do against the current competition on a works/JGR YZ250 race bike. He finished 4th out of the big four last year and is currently sitting in the same spot with the same issues he was having in 2011. Why not try it for a few races? What does he/they really have to lose? I have to believe that If you were to put someone of James' skill level on a bike that weighs less and handles better he could be competitive. Or at least as competitive as he has been thus far.
If he gets really out of reach on points I for one would like to see that for sure! They can get the same amount of hp out of granted it is in a much narrower range but if anyone can ride that bike flawlessly in that range it would be James. I am disappointed that yamaha has pulled back as far as they have and at such a crucial time with a new bike. I am still baffled as to why someone like James would ride a bike at his level with almost zero support from the guys that built the bike.
2/9/2012 1:18pm
mxdude105 wrote:
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to...
It's never going to happen, but I must point out that Yamaha does still produce a solid 250 two stroke motocross bike. I'm really curious to see how James would do against the current competition on a works/JGR YZ250 race bike. He finished 4th out of the big four last year and is currently sitting in the same spot with the same issues he was having in 2011. Why not try it for a few races? What does he/they really have to lose? I have to believe that If you were to put someone of James' skill level on a bike that weighs less and handles better he could be competitive. Or at least as competitive as he has been thus far.
He'd get slaughtered, honestly. I agree that even in stock form the YZ 250 2 stroke absolutely rocks and has done for many, many years despite very little updates - a testament to its base design awesomeness. But it is what it is, even with factory magic. No doubt It'd be interesting for sure but he wouldn't get beyond 4th, best case outcome imo. Besides these last two rds he's looked much better.
Xsenter
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2/9/2012 1:18pm
Matthes is soo Yamaha bitter ! In almost every pulpshow or podcast he finds something to bad talk Yamaha . Its almost commical.

I really like Matthes work with pulpshow and podcasts ...its awesome to be completely honest. But this Yamaha trash talk is really starting to be a bit annoying.

To normal riders the bike ain't any worse than the other brands. Awesome motor , good stock suspension components and superior quality. The handling is different but it's all about learning to set it up...it needs a little different thinking.
Pro' s in both US and world mx have won on it last season. James Stewart in sx and Steven Frossard and David Philephaerts in world GP's.


It's time to give up this crap talk that bike is the reason for bad results. James failures are mostly done by bad judgement and to eager to outshine the competion. Most crashes has happened when James done things others won't dare to try. He jumps stuff that wornt built to jump...is it really that strange he crashes ?!
tbanks
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2/9/2012 1:22pm
All of this makes me factor in James's decision to ride at JGR.

His two choices were on a team and bike, with a program that seems IMO to be losing or falling away (factory suzuki). Or a team that can do everything you want with a bike lacking development from the builders (JGR).

It's a tough choice to make, and I have to say I probably would have choose the same. He didn't have any other decent offers....
IceMan446
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2/9/2012 1:25pm
What is "proper R&D (at the racing level)" exactly ? IYO?
Think that is pretty much self explanitory.

JGR will get it figured out. They have the reaources and the ability to make components. Just going to take some time to dail it all in.

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