Bike Classes / Displacement Fixes ?

Rupert X
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Rupert X
Edited Date/Time 2/1/2012 7:58pm
My opinion, since you asked so delicately, politely and inquisitively, is that 450's gots no bi'ness in Supercross.

Also, this summer, outdoors, proved that the 250's, in some sections, appear faster and capable of clearing things

the 450's can't or won't (?)

While it is also apparent - and has been for some time, that the top 250 riders can get around the indoor courses AS

FAST - or FASTER than many of the dudes on For-Fiddies - is it time we make 250's the premiere class in SX ?

AS it used to be ?

And, dare I say it, let the junior class be smoking about on machines with less valves and cams and what-not ?

Speak now, or forever hold your launch control..
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22Ryann
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22Ryann 1/30/2012 2:39pm
1/30/2012 2:39pm
I think 450 stay premier class... altho the 250's need to be slowed down..
Rupert X
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Rupert X 1/30/2012 2:42pm
1/30/2012 2:42pm
And, while we are at it, let us for once and all, be DONE with the four /two stroke argument, let CC's rule the day and

let equal size bikes race against equal displacement bikes, with no concern about their configuration.

Why we as a sport make things so &**(&%$%^ complicated and unfriendly to the privateer racer and the common

spectator eludes me - and is confounding and fully counterproductive to the advancement of our silly, dangerous, wonderful

pastime.
EastFlorida
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EastFlorida 1/30/2012 2:44pm
1/30/2012 2:44pm
Rupert X wrote:
And, while we are at it, let us for once and all, be DONE with the four /two stroke argument, let CC's rule the day and...
And, while we are at it, let us for once and all, be DONE with the four /two stroke argument, let CC's rule the day and

let equal size bikes race against equal displacement bikes, with no concern about their configuration.

Why we as a sport make things so &**(&%$%^ complicated and unfriendly to the privateer racer and the common

spectator eludes me - and is confounding and fully counterproductive to the advancement of our silly, dangerous, wonderful

pastime.
I get trashed by the mods on here anytime I bring up a similar topic, but I know you have more status than most of us, so you might be able to get away with it...
flyinb501
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flyinb501 1/30/2012 2:49pm
1/30/2012 2:49pm
I pretty much agree with all of your points Rupert. I think it is kind of stupid that the smaller bikes are able to do all of the same obstacles. Watching that clip of a supercross race from 2000 last week with the huge whoops and 125's struggling to get over stuff was way more entertaining IMO.

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Mstock
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Mstock 1/30/2012 2:51pm
1/30/2012 2:51pm
Put the Factory and Satelite teams in 1 premier class. Yep. Tomac, Wilson, Rattray, Roczen, Musquin, Bagget, M Stewart, Barcia, all them boys are better than the bottom 10 in the "premier" class. That is wrong.
mrquick
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mrquick 1/30/2012 2:54pm
1/30/2012 2:54pm
Yep...125's 250's and a 450 open class. Now we're talking.
Rupert X
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Rupert X 1/30/2012 2:59pm
1/30/2012 2:59pm
Arenacross FINALLY got smart this year and made the 250's the top of the food chain.

I like the idea of 450's Open bikes outside, but in the confines of any arena, me thinks they're a bit much -

and I do believe we would see more PASSING with the smaller motors. Yes, PASSING.

An act that we don't get to see so much of anymore...
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 1/30/2012 3:03pm
1/30/2012 3:03pm
You are a wise man.
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:04pm
1/30/2012 3:04pm
22Ryann wrote:
I think 450 stay premier class... altho the 250's need to be slowed down..
drop them to 200cc and Roczen will mop up the floor with a 125sx.
ATKpilot99
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ATKpilot99 1/30/2012 3:04pm
1/30/2012 3:04pm
I'd love to see James Stewart thrashing a 250f on a supercross track.
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:05pm
1/30/2012 3:05pm
Rupert X wrote:
Arenacross FINALLY got smart this year and made the 250's the top of the food chain. I like the idea of 450's Open bikes outside, but...
Arenacross FINALLY got smart this year and made the 250's the top of the food chain.

I like the idea of 450's Open bikes outside, but in the confines of any arena, me thinks they're a bit much -

and I do believe we would see more PASSING with the smaller motors. Yes, PASSING.

An act that we don't get to see so much of anymore...
doesnt the AMA own Arenacross? perhaps they are uing it as a test bed for the Supercross series? maybe theyll follow suit if it works out in AX, no?
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:06pm
1/30/2012 3:06pm
ATKpilot99 wrote:
I'd love to see James Stewart thrashing a 250f on a supercross track.
somebody would thrash right past him on a 250 smoker though. if we are talking 250cc straight up, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 1/30/2012 3:07pm
1/30/2012 3:07pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2012 3:12pm
Why "fix" what isn't broken? If the 450 was too much bike, the 350 would have been a success. No one wants to ride it because the modern 450 race bike is an incredible machine. Premier class = best riders on the best equipment. The lack of passing has more to do with the tracks than the bikes.

The lites class is and always will be a mess. No matter how you massage the rules, teams like Pro Circuit, Factory Connection, Factory KTM, etc. are going to have an enormous advantage over Johnny Local riding out of a Sprinter van. CC for CC rules aren't going to change that fact.
4mxonly
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4mxonly 1/30/2012 3:07pm
1/30/2012 3:07pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2012 3:08pm
I agree Rupert.
RACEGUY
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RACEGUY 1/30/2012 3:09pm
1/30/2012 3:09pm
Rupert X wrote:
Arenacross FINALLY got smart this year and made the 250's the top of the food chain. I like the idea of 450's Open bikes outside, but...
Arenacross FINALLY got smart this year and made the 250's the top of the food chain.

I like the idea of 450's Open bikes outside, but in the confines of any arena, me thinks they're a bit much -

and I do believe we would see more PASSING with the smaller motors. Yes, PASSING.

An act that we don't get to see so much of anymore...
Just thinking something similar. The 450s are simply overkill indoors. I'm votin' for you, Rup.
4mxonly
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4mxonly 1/30/2012 3:09pm
1/30/2012 3:09pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
doesnt the AMA own Arenacross? perhaps they are uing it as a test bed for the Supercross series? maybe theyll follow suit if it works out...
doesnt the AMA own Arenacross? perhaps they are uing it as a test bed for the Supercross series? maybe theyll follow suit if it works out in AX, no?
Kinda like how AX was supposed to be a feeder program for SX? Woohoo Laughing
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:31pm
1/30/2012 3:31pm
GrapeApe wrote:
Why "fix" what isn't broken? If the 450 was too much bike, the 350 would have been a success. No one wants to ride it because...
Why "fix" what isn't broken? If the 450 was too much bike, the 350 would have been a success. No one wants to ride it because the modern 450 race bike is an incredible machine. Premier class = best riders on the best equipment. The lack of passing has more to do with the tracks than the bikes.

The lites class is and always will be a mess. No matter how you massage the rules, teams like Pro Circuit, Factory Connection, Factory KTM, etc. are going to have an enormous advantage over Johnny Local riding out of a Sprinter van. CC for CC rules aren't going to change that fact.
cc for cc wont change PC's advantage? I bet even Mitch Payton himself would disagree with that.
Denn700
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Denn700 1/30/2012 3:31pm
1/30/2012 3:31pm
Ax should have the lutes class be 125s. What is the point of two 250f classes?

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Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:34pm
1/30/2012 3:34pm
Denn700 wrote:
Ax should have the lutes class be 125s. What is the point of two 250f classes?
AMA completely fucked motorcycle racing in 1998. Period.
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rocrac 1/30/2012 3:38pm
1/30/2012 3:38pm
Right on Rup...agree 100% with all points.
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GrapeApe 1/30/2012 3:45pm
1/30/2012 3:45pm
GrapeApe wrote:
Why "fix" what isn't broken? If the 450 was too much bike, the 350 would have been a success. No one wants to ride it because...
Why "fix" what isn't broken? If the 450 was too much bike, the 350 would have been a success. No one wants to ride it because the modern 450 race bike is an incredible machine. Premier class = best riders on the best equipment. The lack of passing has more to do with the tracks than the bikes.

The lites class is and always will be a mess. No matter how you massage the rules, teams like Pro Circuit, Factory Connection, Factory KTM, etc. are going to have an enormous advantage over Johnny Local riding out of a Sprinter van. CC for CC rules aren't going to change that fact.
Charles Bronson wrote:
cc for cc wont change PC's advantage? I bet even Mitch Payton himself would disagree with that.
I really don't see anyone showing up on a 250 2 stroke that would be a threat to PC/Geico/KTM/Star/Rockstar.
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 3:48pm
1/30/2012 3:48pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I really don't see anyone showing up on a 250 2 stroke that would be a threat to PC/Geico/KTM/Star/Rockstar.
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F?

He's only have a bike with 18 more HP that weighs 20 less lbs.

C'mon man.
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GrapeApe 1/30/2012 3:59pm
1/30/2012 3:59pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I really don't see anyone showing up on a 250 2 stroke that would be a threat to PC/Geico/KTM/Star/Rockstar.
Charles Bronson wrote:
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F? He's only...
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F?

He's only have a bike with 18 more HP that weighs 20 less lbs.

C'mon man.
It's not all about HP in SX, you have to get that power to the ground. Roczen and Musquin would ride factory 250f's in SX. Outdoors might be a different story.
sec114
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sec114 1/30/2012 3:59pm
1/30/2012 3:59pm
RACEGUY wrote:
Just thinking something similar. The 450s are simply overkill indoors. I'm votin' for you, Rup.
with these various helmet cam videos of the races being played right now; i have noticed how those 450 bikes (besides the start) almost can be lugged around the whole track and still go blazing fast.
Charles Bronson 1/30/2012 4:01pm
1/30/2012 4:01pm Edited Date/Time 1/30/2012 4:02pm
GrapeApe wrote:
I really don't see anyone showing up on a 250 2 stroke that would be a threat to PC/Geico/KTM/Star/Rockstar.
Charles Bronson wrote:
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F? He's only...
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F?

He's only have a bike with 18 more HP that weighs 20 less lbs.

C'mon man.
GrapeApe wrote:
It's not all about HP in SX, you have to get that power to the ground. Roczen and Musquin would ride factory 250f's in SX. Outdoors...
It's not all about HP in SX, you have to get that power to the ground. Roczen and Musquin would ride factory 250f's in SX. Outdoors might be a different story.
So if it's not all about HP in SX, then why do all the 450 guys ride faster laps than all of the 250F guys with the exception of Tomac?

I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about.
Rupert X
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Rupert X 1/30/2012 4:37pm
1/30/2012 4:37pm
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about." -

Charles, then I 'm one of those then that doesn't know WTF they are talking about. As much as I love the smokers and want

to see them on equal footing, I think the MAJORITY of riders would turn faster laps on a Geico Honda or a PC 250F

vice any of the current 250 smokers offered. Yes, that's my opinion.
Faceaz
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Faceaz 1/30/2012 4:51pm
1/30/2012 4:51pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F? He's only...
you mean to tell me that Ken Roczen on a factory KTM 250SX would be no threat to Blake Baggett on his PC 250F?

He's only have a bike with 18 more HP that weighs 20 less lbs.

C'mon man.
GrapeApe wrote:
It's not all about HP in SX, you have to get that power to the ground. Roczen and Musquin would ride factory 250f's in SX. Outdoors...
It's not all about HP in SX, you have to get that power to the ground. Roczen and Musquin would ride factory 250f's in SX. Outdoors might be a different story.
Charles Bronson wrote:
So if it's not all about HP in SX, then why do all the 450 guys ride faster laps than all of the 250F guys with...
So if it's not all about HP in SX, then why do all the 450 guys ride faster laps than all of the 250F guys with the exception of Tomac?

I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about.
OK, so the more experienced vetrans are going the same pace as the less experienced riders on machines with 200cc less. 450's are too much indoors but IMO it should be 125, 250F / 250T & an exihibition open class. Sounds like a very similar arguement starting, as when the 500cc bikes got dropped. 250F / 250T on the same track would make for great racing. Yes the 250T has more power, but is very narrow & peaky, the 250F holds it's power for several thousand rpm which equals less shifting & more traction.
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Frodad78 1/30/2012 4:56pm
1/30/2012 4:56pm
Rupert X wrote:
And, while we are at it, let us for once and all, be DONE with the four /two stroke argument, let CC's rule the day and...
And, while we are at it, let us for once and all, be DONE with the four /two stroke argument, let CC's rule the day and

let equal size bikes race against equal displacement bikes, with no concern about their configuration.

Why we as a sport make things so &**(&%$%^ complicated and unfriendly to the privateer racer and the common

spectator eludes me - and is confounding and fully counterproductive to the advancement of our silly, dangerous, wonderful

pastime.
This right here, greatness. Couldn't agree more.
mark dude99 1/30/2012 5:07pm
1/30/2012 5:07pm
Why not use the GP rule of 23 years of age and at the same time we can take the names MX1 and MX2 ?
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GHR 1/30/2012 5:16pm
1/30/2012 5:16pm
Rupert X wrote:
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know...
I don't know how else to say it, but anyone who thinks a 250F can hang with a 250T around an SX track just doesn't know WTF they are talking about." -

Charles, then I 'm one of those then that doesn't know WTF they are talking about. As much as I love the smokers and want

to see them on equal footing, I think the MAJORITY of riders would turn faster laps on a Geico Honda or a PC 250F

vice any of the current 250 smokers offered. Yes, that's my opinion.
This is a real tough one, I am hard pressed to believe that a 250T cant holeshot a 250F given the same weight / talent rider.

It is possible, based on the 250F ergos and compression breaking and such, that it can do lap after lap a tad faster than the 250T but in a 20 man gate we all know how important a holeshot is.....

I say let everyone run what they brung, its each riders call to race what they want....PERIOD.

Get around the track as fast as you can on whatever you want. If you want to build some stupid contraption that gets you a holeshot only to throw anchor, thats your call....

Do a damn free for all....

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