Resurgence of the 2 stroke

miedosoracing1 1/19/2012 12:22pm
1/19/2012 12:22pm
mxking6 wrote:
4-stroke fires every revolution.....now that's funny....HAR.

BTW, Honda actually started 450's in 2002. I had one.

Thanks for setting things straight........
miedosoracing1 wrote:
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people...
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people try to show their intelligence. Honda didn't start a 450 in 2002. If so, that is the fastest built bike ever. They started building a 450 in 2000, thus reason to push the rule change to be sure of direction. The CRF450 was sold for the first time in 2002. Second, go do some research about motors. A 2 or 4 stroke as the crank revolves around, the ... never mind. If you don't understand motors, you never will. Just because a spark plug fires, doesn't mean it produces power. But yes, the 2 or 4 stroke both fire the spark plug each revolution. Think about it, before you answer.
mxking6 wrote:
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong. You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually...
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong.

You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually early in 2001 as 2002's. You were clearly wrong again. It's really no big deal that you were wrong.

You are not correcyt on your allowed cc's for 4-strokes in the 250 class as well, but I'll let that slide.

I am about as far from a smart ass as you'll find BTW.
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the rule was made in 2000 in the boardroom of ProAMA so that Honda could infact make a 450cc bike, instead of making different cc models like Yamaha ended up doing. As far as the 1970's to 1993ish rules, I am 100% correct as well. mxking6, sorry, but ask anyone else, including the 4 stroke sided in this argument, and they will tell you. Everything I've written is true. They will also tell you, that you don't know as much as you think as far as motors go. 4 strokes do infact fire every revolution. Go research it, before you answer it. Trust me, they do. The crank has a little metal piece, that revolves on the flywheel. Everytime that goes around, the magneto.... There, started you out, now go finish the research.
miedosoracing1 1/19/2012 12:27pm
1/19/2012 12:27pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
You know what would solve all the bickering? If the OEMs actually made the damn things and kept them up to date with the 4s. If...
You know what would solve all the bickering?

If the OEMs actually made the damn things and kept them up to date with the 4s. If you could walk into a Suzuki dealer and get an RM or RMz and they had a similiar chassis and suspension, that would be great.

but you cant. you get either a 8,000 dollar BNG YZ, or you drive across the country to find one KTM, at full price. Or, you get a craigslist clapper. TM? Super cool bikes, but I would like to see, and sit on something that I am about to spend close to 8500 bucks for, not look at it in a catalog. Husky? same thing. Ossa? do they even exist? Seen photos, but never seen one being ridden.

Service Honda? AJ does the best he can and charges what he has to charge as a small operation, but his prices are not close to OEM because he does not have the manpower or overhead to compete with them.

So this whole "just buy what you want to buy and ride it" theory is completely and totally erroneous. That would be like telling a 4T guy to just "be happy" with a 2002 YZ250F.
I'm gonna remember that one. "4T guy to just "be happy" with a 2002 YZ250F."
Or I'll add, you don't see people running to pay extra for 2007 CRF450's sitting at the dealer. I mean, the dealer could just throw on some bold new graphics and say, see $8,000 out the door. Kinda like that whole, YZ thingy.

The Shop

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mxking6
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mxking6 1/19/2012 12:58pm
1/19/2012 12:58pm
miedosoracing1 wrote:
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people...
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people try to show their intelligence. Honda didn't start a 450 in 2002. If so, that is the fastest built bike ever. They started building a 450 in 2000, thus reason to push the rule change to be sure of direction. The CRF450 was sold for the first time in 2002. Second, go do some research about motors. A 2 or 4 stroke as the crank revolves around, the ... never mind. If you don't understand motors, you never will. Just because a spark plug fires, doesn't mean it produces power. But yes, the 2 or 4 stroke both fire the spark plug each revolution. Think about it, before you answer.
mxking6 wrote:
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong. You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually...
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong.

You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually early in 2001 as 2002's. You were clearly wrong again. It's really no big deal that you were wrong.

You are not correcyt on your allowed cc's for 4-strokes in the 250 class as well, but I'll let that slide.

I am about as far from a smart ass as you'll find BTW.
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the...
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the rule was made in 2000 in the boardroom of ProAMA so that Honda could infact make a 450cc bike, instead of making different cc models like Yamaha ended up doing. As far as the 1970's to 1993ish rules, I am 100% correct as well. mxking6, sorry, but ask anyone else, including the 4 stroke sided in this argument, and they will tell you. Everything I've written is true. They will also tell you, that you don't know as much as you think as far as motors go. 4 strokes do infact fire every revolution. Go research it, before you answer it. Trust me, they do. The crank has a little metal piece, that revolves on the flywheel. Everytime that goes around, the magneto.... There, started you out, now go finish the research.
"The rules then got changed to 450cc 4 strokes in 2000 (ie: board meeting ProAMA), but didn't go into effect until around 2003. That rule was directly related to Honda building a CRF450."

There's your error on the rule/Honda 2003 deal. Like I said, no big deal, let it go.

As for a 4-stroke firing every revolution........4-strokes.....INTAKE.....COMPRESSION............COMBUSTION/POWER..........EXHAUST.

There is no way it can fire with the exhaust valve open. You are wrong.

Even on 4-strokes that spark at every top-dead center, they do not fire. Most 4-stroke do not even spark at the second TDC. This is one of the reasons a 4-stroke must have higher crank/flywheel weight.

You really need to get over this firing every revolution deal.
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zippy895 1/19/2012 1:02pm
1/19/2012 1:02pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 1:06pm
miedosoracing1 wrote:
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people...
(Not referring to Jtomasik...But the quoted: a smart ass remark posted trying to prove me wrong, rather than asking what I meant) I love when people try to show their intelligence. Honda didn't start a 450 in 2002. If so, that is the fastest built bike ever. They started building a 450 in 2000, thus reason to push the rule change to be sure of direction. The CRF450 was sold for the first time in 2002. Second, go do some research about motors. A 2 or 4 stroke as the crank revolves around, the ... never mind. If you don't understand motors, you never will. Just because a spark plug fires, doesn't mean it produces power. But yes, the 2 or 4 stroke both fire the spark plug each revolution. Think about it, before you answer.
mxking6 wrote:
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong. You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually...
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong.

You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually early in 2001 as 2002's. You were clearly wrong again. It's really no big deal that you were wrong.

You are not correcyt on your allowed cc's for 4-strokes in the 250 class as well, but I'll let that slide.

I am about as far from a smart ass as you'll find BTW.
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the...
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the rule was made in 2000 in the boardroom of ProAMA so that Honda could infact make a 450cc bike, instead of making different cc models like Yamaha ended up doing. As far as the 1970's to 1993ish rules, I am 100% correct as well. mxking6, sorry, but ask anyone else, including the 4 stroke sided in this argument, and they will tell you. Everything I've written is true. They will also tell you, that you don't know as much as you think as far as motors go. 4 strokes do infact fire every revolution. Go research it, before you answer it. Trust me, they do. The crank has a little metal piece, that revolves on the flywheel. Everytime that goes around, the magneto.... There, started you out, now go finish the research.
.
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zippy895 1/19/2012 1:06pm
1/19/2012 1:06pm
mxking6
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mxking6 1/19/2012 1:06pm
1/19/2012 1:06pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 1:08pm
mxking6 wrote:
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong. You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually...
You said that a 4-stroke fires every revolution, they clearly do not. You are wrong.

You said Honda released 450's around 2003 when it was actually early in 2001 as 2002's. You were clearly wrong again. It's really no big deal that you were wrong.

You are not correcyt on your allowed cc's for 4-strokes in the 250 class as well, but I'll let that slide.

I am about as far from a smart ass as you'll find BTW.
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the...
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the rule was made in 2000 in the boardroom of ProAMA so that Honda could infact make a 450cc bike, instead of making different cc models like Yamaha ended up doing. As far as the 1970's to 1993ish rules, I am 100% correct as well. mxking6, sorry, but ask anyone else, including the 4 stroke sided in this argument, and they will tell you. Everything I've written is true. They will also tell you, that you don't know as much as you think as far as motors go. 4 strokes do infact fire every revolution. Go research it, before you answer it. Trust me, they do. The crank has a little metal piece, that revolves on the flywheel. Everytime that goes around, the magneto.... There, started you out, now go finish the research.
zippy895 wrote:
.
Oh......wow. This is too fun. I should be paying for this jocularity........

Zippy's got 2 intake and 2 exhaust strokes.....HAR...
mxking6
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mxking6 1/19/2012 1:09pm
1/19/2012 1:09pm
Nope......he edited it.....
zippy895
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zippy895 1/19/2012 1:14pm
1/19/2012 1:14pm
zippy895
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zippy895 1/19/2012 1:15pm
1/19/2012 1:15pm
miedosoracing1 wrote:
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the...
Wow! So are you sticking with the 4 strokes don't fire every revolution? Where did I state Honda released a CRF450 in 2003? I stated the rule was made in 2000 in the boardroom of ProAMA so that Honda could infact make a 450cc bike, instead of making different cc models like Yamaha ended up doing. As far as the 1970's to 1993ish rules, I am 100% correct as well. mxking6, sorry, but ask anyone else, including the 4 stroke sided in this argument, and they will tell you. Everything I've written is true. They will also tell you, that you don't know as much as you think as far as motors go. 4 strokes do infact fire every revolution. Go research it, before you answer it. Trust me, they do. The crank has a little metal piece, that revolves on the flywheel. Everytime that goes around, the magneto.... There, started you out, now go finish the research.
zippy895 wrote:
.
mxking6 wrote:
Oh......wow. This is too fun. I should be paying for this jocularity........

Zippy's got 2 intake and 2 exhaust strokes.....HAR...
cough, i thought we were trying ways to blow up 4 strokes...Blush
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DirtyFilter75 1/19/2012 1:17pm
1/19/2012 1:17pm
mxking6 wrote:
Nope......he edited it.....
Touchy subject! It is clear there are several guys here that just need to start an OEM and build what they want.

mxking6
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mxking6 1/19/2012 1:17pm
1/19/2012 1:17pm
Zippy, it's all good. I'll never tell.
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zippy895 1/19/2012 1:35pm
1/19/2012 1:35pm
mxking6 wrote:
Zippy, it's all good. I'll never tell.
i typed before i thinked....trying to fit in with the vital m o .
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Suns_PSD 1/19/2012 1:40pm
1/19/2012 1:40pm
Actually I think the 4 strokes do fire every revolution it's just that exactly half of those sparks have no compressed fuel to ignite.

They use to back in the day anyways. The ignition just fired everytime the piston came up.
Barrett57
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Barrett57 1/19/2012 1:51pm
1/19/2012 1:51pm
Just ride what you find the most fun, isnt that why we ride?
burn1986
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burn1986 1/19/2012 1:51pm
1/19/2012 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 1:54pm
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
goonslurkin316 1/19/2012 1:59pm
1/19/2012 1:59pm
TallCan 16 wrote:
Why do people care about the pro class rules? How many of you guys are going to race an AMA pro class? I'm guessing most arguing...
Why do people care about the pro class rules? How many of you guys are going to race an AMA pro class?

I'm guessing most arguing here, if they actually race, would race the vet class - you can run whatever you want! 2 stroke or 4 just ride it and/or race it and have fun! 125/250/500 2strokes and 250/450 4-strokes, I love riding them all. What is most competitive in an open cc class? I think it comes down to the rider more than the machine.

And here's something to argue into the ground: I'm pretty sure Honda tried to develop a next-gen 2-stroke and realized it was getting more complicated than a 4-stroke...
One right here. I hate to join in on this crap, I feel like I'm on a youtube page of timmy's first race and everyone's arguing about which is faster, a 2-stroke or 4-stroke. If a rider is fast, they are going to succeed no matter what. 5,000 dollar motors, 2-stroke, 4-stroke whatever, isn't going to propel a rider to the top. I've raced for 14 years now and am 19 years old. I was starting to get serious when the 4-stroke era really began, and I've never ever owned a 4-stroke motorcycle. 2-strokes from 60's to an 09 250 2 stroke now in the A class and I am not ANTI-4 STROKE. I realize some people are obsessed with 2-strokes and that's fine, but who cares what people choose to ride. We all are in this sport for the same reason. Sorry to ramble, anyways, the only reason I have a dog in this fight is because I'm hoping to try for some outdoor nationals in 2013 and maybe, just maybe, some supercross although I've ridden a professional sx track once in my entire life. I'm in a predicament as far as how I'm going to do that with the rules currently how they are. As I understand, I'm not allowed to try in the 450 class my first year of pro racing, so that cancels out my request of my comfortability on my 2-stroke (although I'd feel like a huge goon taking that to a national) and a 450 that I would think I'd enjoy. So the only option I see is to get a 250f, not really sure how I can afford to purchase or maintain it, and try that. I know the AMA and mxsports have ties with the manufacturers, and the big companies have a big part in what bikes are allowed. So the only reason I, a 2-stroke veteran, care about this topic is because of how amateur rules can let (although rarely) a rider progress and develop on a 2-stroke their entire amateur career; and then the biggest stage of a rider's life, at the pro level, stop them and not allow a 2-stroke to have an equal opportunity against 4-stroke machines it's similar to. That's the only reason I care about the resurgence of the 2-stroke.

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burn1986
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burn1986 1/19/2012 2:07pm
1/19/2012 2:07pm
You may have to talk to MXSports owner and the AMA for that one.
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zippy895 1/19/2012 2:21pm
1/19/2012 2:21pm
burn1986 wrote:
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor...
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
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TallCan 16 1/19/2012 2:45pm
1/19/2012 2:45pm
Goonslurkin I have respect for anyone who aspires to line up for an AMA national and wish you the best of luck. It's good to hear someone's opinion that would actually be affected by the pro rules. That being said, if you are good enough to try and qualify for a national, you should have no problem getting parts and bikes kicked down or at a good discount, or gathering contingency money and local pro purses to pay for it, as well as a decent mechanic willing to wrench for you for performance-based pay / winnings bonuses. At that point you are in business for yourself. As in any profession the savvy ones will find a way to make it work, and if it is not economically feasible, maybe it is time to look at other options. But I don't think it was any easier to financially justify racing at the pro level in the 2 stroke days - in my case I was still not going to compete with RIcky Carmichael regardless and I'm glad I figured that out before I was even 13 years old and decided to just enjoy motocross as a hobby.
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jtomasik 1/19/2012 2:56pm
1/19/2012 2:56pm
burn1986 wrote:
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor...
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
A car distributor is geared to the camshaft, which is rotating at 1/2 the rpm of the crankshaft. They did that so the firing of the spark plug would occur only on the power stroke. At least, those were during my motorhead years. Maybe some 4-stroke dirt bikes will fire the spark every TDC...dunno. Sounds kinda stupid, though. Never kept a thumper around to have to deal with it...only own smokers now.
OldYZRider1
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OldYZRider1 1/19/2012 2:58pm
1/19/2012 2:58pm
Charles Bronson wrote:
You know what would solve all the bickering? If the OEMs actually made the damn things and kept them up to date with the 4s. If...
You know what would solve all the bickering?

If the OEMs actually made the damn things and kept them up to date with the 4s. If you could walk into a Suzuki dealer and get an RM or RMz and they had a similiar chassis and suspension, that would be great.

but you cant. you get either a 8,000 dollar BNG YZ, or you drive across the country to find one KTM, at full price. Or, you get a craigslist clapper. TM? Super cool bikes, but I would like to see, and sit on something that I am about to spend close to 8500 bucks for, not look at it in a catalog. Husky? same thing. Ossa? do they even exist? Seen photos, but never seen one being ridden.

Service Honda? AJ does the best he can and charges what he has to charge as a small operation, but his prices are not close to OEM because he does not have the manpower or overhead to compete with them.

So this whole "just buy what you want to buy and ride it" theory is completely and totally erroneous. That would be like telling a 4T guy to just "be happy" with a 2002 YZ250F.
Good points made in this post.

While I don't care what people ride, my choice is to ride/maintain a two stroke. I'm currently riding a 2008 200XC KTM. I really love the 200cc size bike but already I'm facing a problem upgrading. While KTM is still building a 200XC-W it has a wide ratio transmission and open chamber forks, not at all what I'd prefer for motocross usage. Sure I could split the cases, change the transmission and put on Twin Chamber forks but I'd really rather just buy a bike from a manufacturer much closer to what I want/need than having to do that much modification.

I'd think anybody who rides motocross and is buying a brand new bike would want to buy a bike with current technology and know that it has been tested/tuned to withstand moto use. While Yamaha's current YZ's are still good in this respect, I question whether they'll update them.

I don't believe many guys took XR Honda's and converted them for moto use before the current four stroke designs became available. But its a similar situation two stroke riders may be faced with in the future; taking woods bike designs and converting them for moto use and hope/pray they take the abuse.
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mxking6 1/19/2012 3:13pm
1/19/2012 3:13pm
burn1986 wrote:
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor...
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
Oh I am well aware of the fact that some 4-strokes spark at the plug on every revolution, but they do not fire on every revolution.

To fire an engine needs three things:

1. fuel mixture
2. compression
3. spark

On stroke 4 a 4-stroke is at least missing number 2. and hopefully most of number 1. also.

They do not fire twice per complete cycle.
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OldYZRider1 1/19/2012 3:14pm
1/19/2012 3:14pm
burn1986 wrote:
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor...
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
jtomasik wrote:
A car distributor is geared to the camshaft, which is rotating at 1/2 the rpm of the crankshaft. They did that so the firing of the...
A car distributor is geared to the camshaft, which is rotating at 1/2 the rpm of the crankshaft. They did that so the firing of the spark plug would occur only on the power stroke. At least, those were during my motorhead years. Maybe some 4-stroke dirt bikes will fire the spark every TDC...dunno. Sounds kinda stupid, though. Never kept a thumper around to have to deal with it...only own smokers now.
This is correct. If your four stroke engine has a pickup on the camshaft then its probably timed to fire the plug every other crank revolution. If its a crank mounted pickup its likely firing the plug also during the dead stroke when the exhaust valve is open, it doesn't hurt anything its firing in spent exhaust gas anyway and its a simplier design . To do otherwise would require some other means of timing the spark to occur with every other revolution of the crank.
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jtomasik 1/19/2012 3:23pm
1/19/2012 3:23pm
OldYZRider1 wrote:
This is correct. If your four stroke engine has a pickup on the camshaft then its probably timed to fire the plug every other crank revolution...
This is correct. If your four stroke engine has a pickup on the camshaft then its probably timed to fire the plug every other crank revolution. If its a crank mounted pickup its likely firing the plug also during the dead stroke when the exhaust valve is open, it doesn't hurt anything its firing in spent exhaust gas anyway and its a simplier design . To do otherwise would require some other means of timing the spark to occur with every other revolution of the crank.
Yeah, makes sense. I guess it'd be out of convenience for a motorcycle and just drive off the crank, instead of putting something up off the cams.
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newmann 1/19/2012 3:24pm
1/19/2012 3:24pm
Crank triggered, cam sensored, cam triggered, distributor.......everyone needs to get on the same page. LOL

At least EVERYONE knows when the two stroke fires. That's reason enough to praise the simplistic one.
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reded 1/19/2012 3:26pm
1/19/2012 3:26pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 3:31pm
burn1986 wrote:
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor...
Not to beat this into the ground, but I think mxking may be thinking of a car engine, which a spark is send via a distributor, instead of a motorcycle.
mxking6 wrote:
Oh I am well aware of the fact that some 4-strokes spark at the plug on every revolution, but they do not fire on every revolution...
Oh I am well aware of the fact that some 4-strokes spark at the plug on every revolution, but they do not fire on every revolution.

To fire an engine needs three things:

1. fuel mixture
2. compression
3. spark

On stroke 4 a 4-stroke is at least missing number 2. and hopefully most of number 1. also.

They do not fire twice per complete cycle.
I believe somewhere in these 7 pages I told you that we were talking about the fucking sparkplug firing every revolution and you lol'ed. Did we do a bit of research between then and now? I'm not aware of any current 4stroke MXer that incorporates a cam trigger. They are all triggered at the crank, therefore the sparkplug fires (sparks) on every revolution. If there is one that is cam triggered I'll stand corrected.
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jtomasik 1/19/2012 3:26pm
1/19/2012 3:26pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 3:27pm
newmann wrote:
Crank triggered, cam sensored, cam triggered, distributor.......everyone needs to get on the same page. LOL At least EVERYONE knows when the two stroke fires. That's reason...
Crank triggered, cam sensored, cam triggered, distributor.......everyone needs to get on the same page. LOL

At least EVERYONE knows when the two stroke fires. That's reason enough to praise the simplistic one.
Newmann, do any of the new lawnmower technology....er....4-strokes have cam sensors? I'd think so, with fuel injected bikes. Then, you could time the plug to the power stroke TDC, and only fire on power TDC.
Charles Bronson 1/19/2012 3:37pm
1/19/2012 3:37pm Edited Date/Time 1/19/2012 3:40pm
Barrett57 wrote:
Just ride what you find the most fun, isnt that why we ride?
The problem is not the fun factor, it is the availability. I know for a fact there would be a lot less people bitching if you could walk into a yamaha kawasaki suzuki or honda dealer and there was a 2 stroke for every four stroke, and they had the same chassis and suspension development, and the engines werent neglected.

does not matter how fun a two stroke is, at this point we are all riding 7 year old bikes, unless its a ktm. 7 years. had you said people would be racing 7 year old bikes back in 1999, you'd have gotten laughed at.

I want to see this thing with no lights and a 19in rear wheel so badly.

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