Hey Ron Paul Supporters step in here.

flarider
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1/13/2012 12:18pm
Titan1 wrote:
Because in those instances the mother didn't-of her own free will-choose to have sex.
flarider wrote:
But if the rational that abortion is murder, well, murder is murder, isn't it? If the woman can't choose to have an abortion, why is it...
But if the rational that abortion is murder, well, murder is murder, isn't it?

If the woman can't choose to have an abortion, why is it any different when the sperm donor is different or unknown?

Seems hypocritical
You're sanctioning one as "murder" but another of the same procedure isn't?

It's murder or it isn't murder, isn't it?
Titan1 wrote:
It's not a clean cut and dry situation...Here is the churches stance on abortion: The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like...
It's not a clean cut and dry situation...Here is the churches stance on abortion:


The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:
1.
Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.

2.
A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

3.
A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.


Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is very serious and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

A person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

One can also be forgiven for the sin of murder.

There are certain circumstances where the taking of another life is justified (self defence, or in the defence of another, military service or police work, and for abortion those three exceptions listed above). It is what it is..


See more here: http://mormon.org/faq/church-position-on-abortion/
I appreciate your open and honest response, and I am not attacking LDS, just the hypocrisy several religions take in regards to abortion and even conception.

Murder is murder.
Man kills my daughter and I hunt him down and shoot him dead in the street, it's murder. There's no legal or ethical wiggle room.

If you're going to say abortion is murder, than any abortion, regardless of the manner of conception, is murder.
Not the fault of the fetus the manner of conception, and isn't that conception the will of God? Who are you or the church leaders to determine what is or isn't God's will?

It's a hypocritical double standard of convenience.

What about fertility clinics? The fertilize eggs and freeze them. Once the host womb (mother) gives birth and no longer wants kids, the fertilized eggs are discarded....if "life" begins at conception, what's up with that? Where's the hate, anger, condemnation and picketing towards fertility clinics?

Point is, it's all hypocritical double standards for a matter of convenience.
Cut and trim the puzzle pieces to fit, so you can control, but still have wiggle room
Orange724
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1/13/2012 12:23pm
lumpy790 wrote:
You think Obama is being cock blocked.......even If RP was elected... he would never get other politicians to pass anything
I agree with the other 2 responses to this post have to say.

Plus I'll add that even if congress and him butt heads his whole term, and not much get's accomplished, then atleast it will be no progress instead of this backwards progression we've been headed.
flarider
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1/13/2012 12:24pm
No, I would have killed a man in cold blood
You would be going against the laws you as a juror are sworn to follow
Titan1
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1/13/2012 12:25pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
He's blacked out on every channel for the same reason - he's a fringe candidate who has no chance of winning. And when I listened to...
He's blacked out on every channel for the same reason - he's a fringe candidate who has no chance of winning. And when I listened to his speech after the Iowa caucuses, I saw why - he just stands there and rambles. He's incoherent. Why would you put him on TV on a regular basis?
Titan1 wrote:
You call it "incoherent" millions of other Americans call it "real" and "not staged" and "authentic"...All things DC needs. If you don't think he has a...
You call it "incoherent" millions of other Americans call it "real" and "not staged" and "authentic"...All things DC needs.

If you don't think he has a chance, why do you spend so much time belittling him?? You don't invest the same amount of time belittling the other candidates that don't stand a chance....I'm just curious as to the reason you have a hard on for bashing Ron Paul???

IF you REALLY believe he doesn't have a chance, just ignore him and he'll go away.
SteveS wrote:
Which millions? The ones that want Paul because he says he'll legalize marijuana? Maybe that's why the incoherent rambling makes sense to them.

The Shop

flarider
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1/13/2012 12:26pm
lumpy790 wrote:
You think Obama is being cock blocked.......even If RP was elected... he would never get other politicians to pass anything
jndmx wrote:
This right here nails it on the head. How the fuck do you think RP is going to make all that radical change happen? The president...
This right here nails it on the head.

How the fuck do you think RP is going to make all that radical change happen?
The president is basically a figurehead, without the approval of the Congress nothing is going to happen.
This is what I have been saying to deaf ears
WhKnuckle
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1/13/2012 12:29pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2012 12:32pm
Titan, Jesus never said a word about abortion, nor did he say a word about when life begins. Ever. You may want to go back to the Old Testament and read some of God's viewpoints about people saying that their mere human utterances were coming from his mouth. It's not a pretty picture. And you're completely wrong about any perceived bias against Mormons. I don't have any more bias against Mormons than I do against any other religion that I don't personally adhere to. But I do think Mormons are going to be viewed much more negatively by the general public if these kinds of things come out in a political context, and they will.
flarider
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1/13/2012 12:30pm
The man has passed ONE BILL TO LAW in 20 years...one bill, and that one bill was a pork project of the federal government giving some land to the Texas Historical Society

He can't get shit done in Congress
He can't even pass gas in Congress

But if elected POTUS, *POOF*, Jeannie crosses her arms, blinks and nods, and Congress falls into place and does his bidding....
Titan1
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1/13/2012 12:34pm
flarider wrote:
I appreciate your open and honest response, and I am not attacking LDS, just the hypocrisy several religions take in regards to abortion and even conception...
I appreciate your open and honest response, and I am not attacking LDS, just the hypocrisy several religions take in regards to abortion and even conception.

Murder is murder.
Man kills my daughter and I hunt him down and shoot him dead in the street, it's murder. There's no legal or ethical wiggle room.

If you're going to say abortion is murder, than any abortion, regardless of the manner of conception, is murder.
Not the fault of the fetus the manner of conception, and isn't that conception the will of God? Who are you or the church leaders to determine what is or isn't God's will?

It's a hypocritical double standard of convenience.

What about fertility clinics? The fertilize eggs and freeze them. Once the host womb (mother) gives birth and no longer wants kids, the fertilized eggs are discarded....if "life" begins at conception, what's up with that? Where's the hate, anger, condemnation and picketing towards fertility clinics?

Point is, it's all hypocritical double standards for a matter of convenience.
Cut and trim the puzzle pieces to fit, so you can control, but still have wiggle room
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone.

You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone that has a gun to your own head? Yes, both end a human life (murder), but the circumstances specific to each situation drastically change the reaction to them, right? Murder as Self Defense is justified...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things.

I won't debate the how's and why's with you. I can't type that fast and I don't think you want to read that much. So I'll leave it at in certain instances murder (ending a human life) is justified. And even though its justified, it is never taken lightly.
vet323
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1/13/2012 12:35pm
flarider wrote:
I appreciate your open and honest response, and I am not attacking LDS, just the hypocrisy several religions take in regards to abortion and even conception...
I appreciate your open and honest response, and I am not attacking LDS, just the hypocrisy several religions take in regards to abortion and even conception.

Murder is murder.
Man kills my daughter and I hunt him down and shoot him dead in the street, it's murder. There's no legal or ethical wiggle room.

If you're going to say abortion is murder, than any abortion, regardless of the manner of conception, is murder.
Not the fault of the fetus the manner of conception, and isn't that conception the will of God? Who are you or the church leaders to determine what is or isn't God's will?

It's a hypocritical double standard of convenience.

What about fertility clinics? The fertilize eggs and freeze them. Once the host womb (mother) gives birth and no longer wants kids, the fertilized eggs are discarded....if "life" begins at conception, what's up with that? Where's the hate, anger, condemnation and picketing towards fertility clinics?

Point is, it's all hypocritical double standards for a matter of convenience.
Cut and trim the puzzle pieces to fit, so you can control, but still have wiggle room
You DID read the exemptions Titan posted, no?

In the case of rape or incest, massive emotional trauma to the mother would arise from carrying the fetus to term and delivering the baby. Just like the other health of the mother exemption you can clearly see that this is something that could be perceived as "self defense"-which is a pretty well established legal justification for killing someone.

The hypocrisy that I see is someone like you or WKnuckle giving two shits about what someone's religious beliefs are just because he's running for President, especially after clearly saying earlier that a President is one man who can't act unilaterally.
Titan1
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1/13/2012 12:38pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
Titan, Jesus never said a word about abortion, nor did he say a word about when life begins. Ever. You may want to go back to...
Titan, Jesus never said a word about abortion, nor did he say a word about when life begins. Ever. You may want to go back to the Old Testament and read some of God's viewpoints about people saying that their mere human utterances were coming from his mouth. It's not a pretty picture. And you're completely wrong about any perceived bias against Mormons. I don't have any more bias against Mormons than I do against any other religion that I don't personally adhere to. But I do think Mormons are going to be viewed much more negatively by the general public if these kinds of things come out in a political context, and they will.
Okay, Whknuckle...whatever you say. I'm not going to debate doctrinal points with you. If you don't believe abortion is a sin, then that's fine. You believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe. End of story.
flarider
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1/13/2012 12:41pm
Titan1 wrote:
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone. You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone...
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone.

You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone that has a gun to your own head? Yes, both end a human life (murder), but the circumstances specific to each situation drastically change the reaction to them, right? Murder as Self Defense is justified...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things.

I won't debate the how's and why's with you. I can't type that fast and I don't think you want to read that much. So I'll leave it at in certain instances murder (ending a human life) is justified. And even though its justified, it is never taken lightly.
I never discussed self defense. I said hunt down the man who killed my daughter and shooting him dead in the street, that is not, by any definition, self defense


"...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things."

How? Why? If life is life, then murder is murder. The manner of conception should be irrelevant. The conception is God's will, is it not? Who are you, I or the church leaders to decide what is or isn't God's will? How do you or they know? The fetus didn't choose the manner of conception, and by this point it has been conceived, yes?

It's convenient hypocrisy.
flarider
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1/13/2012 12:43pm
Sponsoring a bill does not make it your bill or the author of the bill.
He authored and passed ONE BILL in 20+ years, a pork deal
Period

He can't even pass wind in congress
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:02pm
The fact that he can't pass anything but some local pork project of land donation to the Texas Historical Society proves that he holds no weight in Congress and would be a lame duck from the moment inaugurated.

He'd be dead in the water

Common sense tells you that, or it should

Had he accomplished some things, like written and passed some bills to benefit the United States of America, not just some little porky project, I might believe he could get shit done.

But he hasn't and he can't
vet323
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1/13/2012 1:06pm
Titan1 wrote:
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone. You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone...
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone.

You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone that has a gun to your own head? Yes, both end a human life (murder), but the circumstances specific to each situation drastically change the reaction to them, right? Murder as Self Defense is justified...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things.

I won't debate the how's and why's with you. I can't type that fast and I don't think you want to read that much. So I'll leave it at in certain instances murder (ending a human life) is justified. And even though its justified, it is never taken lightly.
flarider wrote:
I never discussed self defense. I said hunt down the man who killed my daughter and shooting him dead in the street, that is not, by...
I never discussed self defense. I said hunt down the man who killed my daughter and shooting him dead in the street, that is not, by any definition, self defense


"...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things."

How? Why? If life is life, then murder is murder. The manner of conception should be irrelevant. The conception is God's will, is it not? Who are you, I or the church leaders to decide what is or isn't God's will? How do you or they know? The fetus didn't choose the manner of conception, and by this point it has been conceived, yes?

It's convenient hypocrisy.
"In the case of rape or incest, massive emotional trauma to the mother would arise from carrying the fetus to term and delivering the baby. Just like the other health of the mother exemption you can clearly see that this is something that could be perceived as "self defense"-which is a pretty well established legal justification for killing someone. "

Lotsa religious bigotry in this here thread.Wink
Titan1
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1/13/2012 1:11pm
Titan1 wrote:
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone. You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone...
I'm happy to answer your questions...I appreciate your civil tone.

You don't see a difference between killing someone in a drive by shooting, and killing someone that has a gun to your own head? Yes, both end a human life (murder), but the circumstances specific to each situation drastically change the reaction to them, right? Murder as Self Defense is justified...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things.

I won't debate the how's and why's with you. I can't type that fast and I don't think you want to read that much. So I'll leave it at in certain instances murder (ending a human life) is justified. And even though its justified, it is never taken lightly.
flarider wrote:
I never discussed self defense. I said hunt down the man who killed my daughter and shooting him dead in the street, that is not, by...
I never discussed self defense. I said hunt down the man who killed my daughter and shooting him dead in the street, that is not, by any definition, self defense


"...abortion in the instance of rape is also justified. neither are taken lightly, but it changes things."

How? Why? If life is life, then murder is murder. The manner of conception should be irrelevant. The conception is God's will, is it not? Who are you, I or the church leaders to decide what is or isn't God's will? How do you or they know? The fetus didn't choose the manner of conception, and by this point it has been conceived, yes?

It's convenient hypocrisy.
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases (even you'll admit) murder is justified. Abortion, in some cases, in the eyes of the mormon church is also justified. You don't have to agree with it, call in hypocrisy, whatever you want, but it is what it is.
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:12pm
I said hypocrisy, not bigotry

If life begins at conception, and life is life, and abortion is murder, then any abortion is murder.
You're just being selective as to who to murder and who to not, because by definition, the fetus is "life" and abortion is "murder"

It's a convenient hypocrisy

Just like with fertility clinics
No one says shit about that

Because it's a convenient hypocrisy
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:13pm
You tell me?
People buy into his shit, even though he accomplishes none of it?
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:18pm
Titan1 wrote:
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases...
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases (even you'll admit) murder is justified. Abortion, in some cases, in the eyes of the mormon church is also justified. You don't have to agree with it, call in hypocrisy, whatever you want, but it is what it is.
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views.
Is capital punishment "murder?" Some say "yes" and some say "no," but again to me that is a convenient hypocrisy where someone claims to be "pro-life" but is all for killing people, granted bad people, but the killing of people nonetheless, outside of war.

The killing in war issue is a whole other issue
1/13/2012 1:22pm
lumpy790 wrote:
You think Obama is being cock blocked.......even If RP was elected... he would never get other politicians to pass anything
jndmx wrote:
This right here nails it on the head. How the fuck do you think RP is going to make all that radical change happen? The president...
This right here nails it on the head.

How the fuck do you think RP is going to make all that radical change happen?
The president is basically a figurehead, without the approval of the Congress nothing is going to happen.
flarider wrote:
This is what I have been saying to deaf ears
I don't know,I think if Paul were to win the general election, it would be one of the biggest events in American history (at least when it comes to elections). It would be almost coup like. Most politicians in congress are pretty quick to figure out which way the wind is blowing if not they would be replaced next term. The amount of dissatisfaction by average Americans it would take to actually get Paul elected would not just subside and settle for a gridlock congress. It would be a tidal wave.
Titan1
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1/13/2012 1:23pm
Titan1 wrote:
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases...
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases (even you'll admit) murder is justified. Abortion, in some cases, in the eyes of the mormon church is also justified. You don't have to agree with it, call in hypocrisy, whatever you want, but it is what it is.
flarider wrote:
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views. Is capital punishment...
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views.
Is capital punishment "murder?" Some say "yes" and some say "no," but again to me that is a convenient hypocrisy where someone claims to be "pro-life" but is all for killing people, granted bad people, but the killing of people nonetheless, outside of war.

The killing in war issue is a whole other issue
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
Frogman
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1/13/2012 1:27pm
Titan1 wrote:
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
Murder no...homicide yes.
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:29pm
Titan1 wrote:
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases...
It's not black and white, Dave. It's not. I know you want it to be such, but it isn't. Murder isn't always "murder", in some cases (even you'll admit) murder is justified. Abortion, in some cases, in the eyes of the mormon church is also justified. You don't have to agree with it, call in hypocrisy, whatever you want, but it is what it is.
flarider wrote:
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views. Is capital punishment...
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views.
Is capital punishment "murder?" Some say "yes" and some say "no," but again to me that is a convenient hypocrisy where someone claims to be "pro-life" but is all for killing people, granted bad people, but the killing of people nonetheless, outside of war.

The killing in war issue is a whole other issue
Titan1 wrote:
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
Self defense, sure it's justified, of course
flarider
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1/13/2012 1:32pm
Well, when you can't accomplish much but pass one pork bill in 20+ yrs, it's hard to be accused of anything
burn1986
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1/13/2012 1:49pm Edited Date/Time 1/13/2012 2:12pm
Titan1 wrote:
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
Frogman wrote:
Murder no...homicide yes.
edited
burn1986
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1/13/2012 1:52pm
BTW, Ron Paul supporter, even though I don't think he will get elected.
flarider
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1/13/2012 2:00pm
Who the fuck was talking about the Quran?
burn1986
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1/13/2012 2:12pm
Opps, wrong thread.
Titan1
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1/13/2012 2:29pm
Titan1 wrote:
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
Frogman wrote:
Murder no...homicide yes.
Taking another persons life...lets put it that way. Is that ever justified? (You just said it was...which is my point).
Titan1
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1/13/2012 2:31pm
flarider wrote:
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views. Is capital punishment...
If we can agree it is convenient hypocrisy, then we agree, and this isn't just an LDS thing, other religions have similar views.
Is capital punishment "murder?" Some say "yes" and some say "no," but again to me that is a convenient hypocrisy where someone claims to be "pro-life" but is all for killing people, granted bad people, but the killing of people nonetheless, outside of war.

The killing in war issue is a whole other issue
Titan1 wrote:
Do you acknowledge that in certain cases murder is justified (self defence, among others)???
flarider wrote:
Self defense, sure it's justified, of course
Okay, so you then acknowledge that in certain instances "taking someone elses" life is justified. So you also acknowledge that EVERY instance of taking someones life isn't the same "black and white" situation. That is my point.

Abortion is bad...it's looked at as murder (taking someone elses life). But just like in other instances of murder (taking someone elses life) there are times when it's justified.
J.F.S
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1/13/2012 2:40pm
WhKnuckle wrote:
He's blacked out on every channel for the same reason - he's a fringe candidate who has no chance of winning. And when I listened to...
He's blacked out on every channel for the same reason - he's a fringe candidate who has no chance of winning. And when I listened to his speech after the Iowa caucuses, I saw why - he just stands there and rambles. He's incoherent. Why would you put him on TV on a regular basis?
Titan1 wrote:
You call it "incoherent" millions of other Americans call it "real" and "not staged" and "authentic"...All things DC needs. If you don't think he has a...
You call it "incoherent" millions of other Americans call it "real" and "not staged" and "authentic"...All things DC needs.

If you don't think he has a chance, why do you spend so much time belittling him?? You don't invest the same amount of time belittling the other candidates that don't stand a chance....I'm just curious as to the reason you have a hard on for bashing Ron Paul???

IF you REALLY believe he doesn't have a chance, just ignore him and he'll go away.
WhKnuckle wrote:
He'll go away regardless. I belittle him because it's an insult to our country that such a whackjob runs for president in a major party. I...
He'll go away regardless. I belittle him because it's an insult to our country that such a whackjob runs for president in a major party. I belittle him because I'm offended by him. He's the political version of a televangelist.
I havent followed the whole thread and the whole discussion, but this last post of yours Knuckle, is the most spot on thing someone has written about Paul, very good and precise summary in only a few sentences.

Post a reply to: Hey Ron Paul Supporters step in here.

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