250SX vs 250F Observations

burn1986
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 11:04am
Here's my observations after reading MXA's latest 2 vs 4 thing (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/TWOSTROKE-VERSUS-FOURSTROKE…):

1. This bike (250SX) needs to be included in the regular 250 shootout, since amateurs are the ones that these shootouts are geared towards. Then we'll have a truer understanding of it's capabilities, instead of pitting it against the 4 stroke version from the same company.

2. This bike needs to be pitted against the 350 instead of the 250s. It weighs less and produces more power. Of course, since the factories run MXA, I'm sure KTM wouldn't allow it to tarnish their pride and joy 350.

3. I can't believe that there is not one pro team that will sponsor a rider on this bike? It would have trouble outdoors, but indoors it would be a weapon. Plus, it would garner so much attention, that publicity would be incredible.

We know all the arguments as to why, but we also know there is a dark force preventing any team or person to campaign this bike in professional competition. Sad.
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ACFAN
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1/3/2012 8:27am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 9:56am
burn1986 wrote:
Here's my observations after reading MXA's latest 2 vs 4 thing (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/TWOSTROKE-VERSUS-FOURSTROKE-2012-KTM-250SXF-VS-201-8417.aspx): 1. This bike (250SX) needs to be included in the regular 250 shootout, since...
Here's my observations after reading MXA's latest 2 vs 4 thing (http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/TWOSTROKE-VERSUS-FOURSTROKE…):

1. This bike (250SX) needs to be included in the regular 250 shootout, since amateurs are the ones that these shootouts are geared towards. Then we'll have a truer understanding of it's capabilities, instead of pitting it against the 4 stroke version from the same company.

2. This bike needs to be pitted against the 350 instead of the 250s. It weighs less and produces more power. Of course, since the factories run MXA, I'm sure KTM wouldn't allow it to tarnish their pride and joy 350.

3. I can't believe that there is not one pro team that will sponsor a rider on this bike? It would have trouble outdoors, but indoors it would be a weapon. Plus, it would garner so much attention, that publicity would be incredible.

We know all the arguments as to why, but we also know there is a dark force preventing any team or person to campaign this bike in professional competition. Sad.
All i want to see is fast guys riding these bikes in the shootouts. I personally don't care what novice A thinks about the suspensions, roll on power ect..

I say only Real Pro caliber riders riding real moto + 2 lap style test sessions.

What the Magazines do today does not work. I say let real world numbers (total times for the moto) tell the story not rider bias.
newmann
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1/3/2012 8:35am
Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki probably wouldn't let MXA have any test bikes if they included the 250SX in the shootout. MXA would have to go out and buy their test bikes....again.

It is odd how they continue to test based off of pro racing rules yet they continue to say their opinions will not be swayed. How many pros buy bikes compared to amateurs and vets?
Tiki
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1/3/2012 8:48am
newmann wrote:
Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki probably wouldn't let MXA have any test bikes if they included the 250SX in the shootout. MXA would have to go...
Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki probably wouldn't let MXA have any test bikes if they included the 250SX in the shootout. MXA would have to go out and buy their test bikes....again.

It is odd how they continue to test based off of pro racing rules yet they continue to say their opinions will not be swayed. How many pros buy bikes compared to amateurs and vets?
You and your logic need to go to bed. Stop it! You are making too much sense here.
Shawn142
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1/3/2012 9:09am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 9:16am
According to MXA I'm drinking 4-stroke kool-aid if I don't buy a 2012 YZ250. But then I'm drinking Yamaha kool-aid because obviously the 250SX is the best 2-stroke in existence ever. But wait, I'm still drinking kool-aid for buying the trendy big 5 brand and not the boutique high quality TM that has several full page ads in their mag monthly. I can't drink anymore, I'm full.. and so is MXA.. of shit.

Edit: To actually acknowledge the original topic outside of the silly shootout stuff that always gets brought up.. what rider are you going to throw on a non-factory backed 250SX and think/hope/pray he can make mains against the current list of 450 riders? Look at some of the threads posted about the stacked field this year, there are 30 guys who are use to making mains weekly. At least 1/3 of that list will be watching from the stands every week. What outside super rider are you going to throw into that mix and actually produce results with?

The Shop

1/3/2012 9:22am
the 250sx vs 250F isnt a comparison AT ALL.

it is 25lbs lighter and makes more hp, yet sits in the same chassis, has the same forks, suspension,linkage, ect.

how is that a comparison? that is like comparing a KTM450 vs a KTM450 with a wet sock in the airbox and bag of cement under the seat. Don't laugh, it's true.

so what does that say for Foopers?

now, the 350. even heavier. and the 250sx STILL makes more HP.

I'm pretty sure that TM300MX, with the suspension set up and valved for American tracks would absolutely decimate the 450s.

but MX, being the broke ass sport that it is, is completely financially driven, and you will never ever hear the truth.

Fooper Troopers, you guys had a great run, and you really caused the two strokes to step up their game, and innovate in the fueling and power delivery department, but at this point you are just riding a wave of lemmings.
nytsmaC
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1/3/2012 9:39am
the 250sx vs 250F isnt a comparison AT ALL. it is 25lbs lighter and makes more hp, yet sits in the same chassis, has the same...
the 250sx vs 250F isnt a comparison AT ALL.

it is 25lbs lighter and makes more hp, yet sits in the same chassis, has the same forks, suspension,linkage, ect.

how is that a comparison? that is like comparing a KTM450 vs a KTM450 with a wet sock in the airbox and bag of cement under the seat. Don't laugh, it's true.

so what does that say for Foopers?

now, the 350. even heavier. and the 250sx STILL makes more HP.

I'm pretty sure that TM300MX, with the suspension set up and valved for American tracks would absolutely decimate the 450s.

but MX, being the broke ass sport that it is, is completely financially driven, and you will never ever hear the truth.

Fooper Troopers, you guys had a great run, and you really caused the two strokes to step up their game, and innovate in the fueling and power delivery department, but at this point you are just riding a wave of lemmings.
This.

It's not hard to read between the lines and see why the magazines, and pro SX/MX, don't give the 2-strokes an even playing field. They can make all the excuses they want, the truth is pretty transparent.

Bottom line is who gives a shit? There are lots of excellent 2-stroke choices you can make and they're not likely going away any time soon. Yamaha, KTM, Husky, TM, go buy one, ride and be happy. Who gives a damn about the magazine shootouts. Mix up a batch of C12 and Maxima 927 and enjoy the smell, quit bitching about the 2-stroke "cause." Let the lemmings buy the shootout winning 250Fs and quietly enjoy knowing something most of them don't know.
burn1986
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1/3/2012 10:23am Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 10:24am
Shawn142 wrote:
According to MXA I'm drinking 4-stroke kool-aid if I don't buy a 2012 YZ250. But then I'm drinking Yamaha kool-aid because obviously the 250SX is the...
According to MXA I'm drinking 4-stroke kool-aid if I don't buy a 2012 YZ250. But then I'm drinking Yamaha kool-aid because obviously the 250SX is the best 2-stroke in existence ever. But wait, I'm still drinking kool-aid for buying the trendy big 5 brand and not the boutique high quality TM that has several full page ads in their mag monthly. I can't drink anymore, I'm full.. and so is MXA.. of shit.

Edit: To actually acknowledge the original topic outside of the silly shootout stuff that always gets brought up.. what rider are you going to throw on a non-factory backed 250SX and think/hope/pray he can make mains against the current list of 450 riders? Look at some of the threads posted about the stacked field this year, there are 30 guys who are use to making mains weekly. At least 1/3 of that list will be watching from the stands every week. What outside super rider are you going to throw into that mix and actually produce results with?
Well, true, he may not make all of the mains, but the publicity alone would get any team into the spotlight. Just look at the MC exposure with Cedric Soubeyras. Then again, what if he did make several mains? It wouldn't be the bikes fault if the didn't. This should be an SX only deal since it wouldn't make it outdoors.

Race teams are able to get significantly more horsepower out of these engines, coming close to factories. DV got 8 more horsepower out of the YZ250

Nobody's mentioning Kool-Aid here, just hate to see a good bike lose out. MXA is bought and paid for anyway, and should only be taken with a grain of salt.
TeamGreen
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1/3/2012 10:43am
OK, you have to say this like Kim J Ill in Team America...

Austin Howell...

2 Stroke Assassin.
burn1986
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1/3/2012 11:02am
Heck, Cedric Soubeyras, 2-stroke assassin. How cool would it be to see Roczen and Musquin riding this in the SX class on the Lites off weeks? They would be as close on this as the 350.
TeamGreen
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1/3/2012 11:20am
burn1986 wrote:
Heck, Cedric Soubeyras, 2-stroke assassin. How cool would it be to see Roczen and Musquin riding this in the SX class on the Lites off weeks...
Heck, Cedric Soubeyras, 2-stroke assassin. How cool would it be to see Roczen and Musquin riding this in the SX class on the Lites off weeks? They would be as close on this as the 350.
You bring your Euro, I'll bring Austin...

We BOTH bring $1000.

I leave with $2000.

I'm jus' sayin'...
burn1986
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1/3/2012 11:50am
Hmmm, tempting. . .
1/3/2012 12:17pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 12:20pm
Sobreyas got bought out by Honda. Honda was tired of a guy on a linkageless KTM making 4 strokes look stupid in European supercross. He won his heat (only 2 stroke on the track) and was leading the main until he washed out in about the last turn (rider error, not a bike shortcoming) I think it was Dortmund a year or 2 ago?

I don't even get surprised when a guy on a 2 stroke enters and runs at the front anymore. of course they do. they are on a lighter bike, that makes more HP, and has 246 less friction causing, power robbing parts inside the engine. I just nod in acknowledgement.

Just like when Roczen qualified 6th in a field full of 4 strokes on a 125, with no prep, in a race he didnt even have to race on a hilly track. of course he did. he was ona two stroke. and the 5 guys ahead of him were on bikes they rode ALL season, and were fighting for points.
Denn700
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1/3/2012 4:31pm
I would love to see a comparison between a 300 two stroke and a 450.
mxracer239
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1/3/2012 4:53pm
I wonder what the cost is for the race teams to maintain a four stroke for a race season compared to a 2 stroke. I know I had a RMZ 250 an had the top end rebuilt an it was almost $1000, I traded it for a RM 250
TerryK
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1/3/2012 5:00pm
As much as I love two strokes, a top guy on a 250 2 stroke in SX would be at a great disadvantage.
machine
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1/3/2012 5:09pm Edited Date/Time 1/3/2012 5:10pm
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn old fat and ot of shape to ride a 2-stroke like it needs to be ridden to go fast for an extended period.

Your so fixated on how light they are and cheap to maintain, but i'd bet money most of you would pull of the track after 2 laps on the KTM250SX, trust me I know...lol

Ride what you want to ride, but I will say this, if you tight asses keep buying old used clapped out 2003 CR250's, the manufacturers won't do shit about bringing 2-strokes back.

Now carry on..........Smile
1/3/2012 5:25pm
TerryK wrote:
As much as I love two strokes, a top guy on a 250 2 stroke in SX would be at a great disadvantage.
the thread title says 250sx vs 250F. do you honestly think a 250sx would be at a disadvantage to a 250F in an SX?
rbigair40
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1/3/2012 5:25pm
machine wrote:
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn...
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn old fat and ot of shape to ride a 2-stroke like it needs to be ridden to go fast for an extended period.

Your so fixated on how light they are and cheap to maintain, but i'd bet money most of you would pull of the track after 2 laps on the KTM250SX, trust me I know...lol

Ride what you want to ride, but I will say this, if you tight asses keep buying old used clapped out 2003 CR250's, the manufacturers won't do shit about bringing 2-strokes back.

Now carry on..........Smile
TRUE THAT!!!!!
1/4/2012 5:31am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2012 5:32am
machine wrote:
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn...
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn old fat and ot of shape to ride a 2-stroke like it needs to be ridden to go fast for an extended period.

Your so fixated on how light they are and cheap to maintain, but i'd bet money most of you would pull of the track after 2 laps on the KTM250SX, trust me I know...lol

Ride what you want to ride, but I will say this, if you tight asses keep buying old used clapped out 2003 CR250's, the manufacturers won't do shit about bringing 2-strokes back.

Now carry on..........Smile
it definitely takes alot more skill/ fitness to ride a 250 2 stroke fast for a full moto (especially without making any mistakes). I know I would do better on a 450, but would never sell my yz 125 or my rm 250 to buy one! the 2 strokes are just too much fun!!!

And the manufacturers (well, the jap ones at least) wont do anything about bringing 2 strokes back again anyway!!! They make too much money on the parts/ repairs etc on the 4 strokes. People ARE buying new 2 strokes- ktm and tm sell alot of them, if suzuki or honda started making 2 strokes again they would sell- but cant see it happening in the near future!

Its a shame the class structure gives the 2 stroke riders such a big disadvantage- 125= 250f being the leas fair! In my opinion they should bring back the 125 class- its important to rider development. 3 classes- 125, 250 and open would be awesome!
burn1986
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1/4/2012 6:09am Edited Date/Time 1/4/2012 6:10am
machine wrote:
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn...
I've got a KTM 250SX and a KX450 and both are great bikes. One thing you guys keep forgetting is most of you are too damn old fat and ot of shape to ride a 2-stroke like it needs to be ridden to go fast for an extended period.

Your so fixated on how light they are and cheap to maintain, but i'd bet money most of you would pull of the track after 2 laps on the KTM250SX, trust me I know...lol

Ride what you want to ride, but I will say this, if you tight asses keep buying old used clapped out 2003 CR250's, the manufacturers won't do shit about bringing 2-strokes back.

Now carry on..........Smile
Someone always has to go that direction, don't they? Why can't there be a regular thread about how a 2-stroke could compete against the current 4-strokes without it turning into name calling. Here we go with the "buy a new bike and then all the rules will change" routine.

I don't recall anywhere in the thread topic that MXA did a test on the KTM 250F and 250SX to determine which would be better for old fat guys. They did do an REM report and you can read that for some 2 vs 4 news if you want.

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