Putting 250T engines into aluminum frame

mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 3:37pm
Wanting to use my 2007 rm250 engine in a rmz250 af. The obvious question is how is this usually done to fit the pipe? On the af the frame down tube comes directly down and Y's out at a much lower point since the 4 strokes exhaust port is offset to one side. The 250t comes in centered on the frame which looks like the down tube will block. So, is the down tube cut up higher and the bottom rails lengthened to make the Y start higher near the radiators? This would open up some access to come directly into tge centered cylinder. any pictures would be great.
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edgo897
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Land O Lakes, FL US
9/30/2011 6:36pm
I've got the same project in the works. An 05 RM250 into a RMZ450 frame. The frame has to be cut as you described. Send me a PM and I'll forward some pics I found.
9/30/2011 6:37pm
If I was going to build one of these I would ask CR500riders.com

They are nuts about aluminum frame conversions. Even though they concentrate on Hondas, they would probably help you out after flaming you to death.
9/30/2011 6:40pm
Service Honda is already doing this.....besides the hondas they are doing it with the kawasakis now aswell
ehr400
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9/30/2011 6:44pm
I have welded and done a few of these myself. Pretty easy to do honestly. Actually go to www.bannedcr500rider.com. They have more insite to it.

I have a buddy who is running a 2011 YZ250F chassis with the '94 YZ250 motor, loves it. He rides 250 "B" class and claims it handles better then the four stroke motor. He got 4th at the baja brawl on that bike.

The Shop

edgo897
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9/30/2011 6:44pm
mps500af.com has a 250 RM AF on their page.
yota
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Crystal River, FL US
9/30/2011 6:44pm
this is the billet Y used on my 500 conversion.

scooter5002
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Nanton Alberta CA
9/30/2011 8:50pm
Whatever you do, DO NOT let MPS touch your bike. That clown cranks out SHIT work and he royally fucked me AND the frame he did for me. As mentioned, www.bannedcr500riders.com is the site to check out. You don't have to join to look and lots of good straight up info on there. Regardless of the brand you ride.
ehr400
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10/1/2011 5:29am
yota wrote:
this is the billet Y used on my 500 conversion. [IMG]http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q201/devrep/09%20CR500Af/ys0021-1.jpg[/IMG]
this is the billet Y used on my 500 conversion.

How much did that "Y" end up costing you? I asked a while back for them to get me some prices on some and he never got back with me.
scooter5002
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10/1/2011 6:59am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
ehr400
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10/1/2011 7:43am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was pretty arrogant.

I didnt know that team trubble did that! Wow, that is some B.S., glad I didnt send him any money! Did you guys get any of that shit resolved then? I have done a few honda 250f's by cutting the weld and trimming back the down tube. Worked out real well.

BTW I am a Engineer but have been welding professionally for 17 years and am very critical of other peoples welds, espicially Mr. Retardo. I see you live in Ontario, you come over to our side much?
scooter5002
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Nanton Alberta CA
10/1/2011 8:09am
WINNING! Mr Retardo. Love it! We obviously see eye to eye.
Actually I haven't been over there riding in a few years, and not because I don't want to. Just circumstances. I only live an hour and a half from Pt Huron. Have a good friend over there, Gordy Baird. You know him? Man, HE seems to know everyone! Used to come and race with him when I had the time. We are a couple of Vet Class retards. Used to do Baja and Log Road. Love that track. Did Florida and Georgia with him 2 separate years. Then I got married and then I got an ex-wife. You know what THAT does to the pocketbook. Hoping to change that next year.
Was actually at the Baja Brawl, just watching though. Was in Fairgrove Mi east of Saginaw partying for the weekend. Canoe trip down the river from Caro for a couple hours then home for a big bbq and some drunken stupidity. And I don't DRINK! Hung there 'til Sunday noon then hit Baja to hang with friends from home. Watch some racing and the Belly Flop contest. Too funny! I recall you and another fellow chatting here about the Baja thing and I looked for his number but didn't see it. Should have just talked to you then and found out where you were camped. Would have looked you up.
As far as I know Aliso Bob recovered ONE guys bike. Everyone else got fucked. Can only hope Karma comes back to bite that son-of-a-bitch and he dies a slow painful death bleeding to death in a car wreck after he swerved to miss a deer. Watches his shithole of a life run in front of his eyes while he approaches hi fate. And it's down, not up. Nice and warm. Fiery warm. I believe the fuckin' asshole actually ripped off an active service man in Afghanistan. He wanted a toy when he got back home. Nice eh?
yota
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10/1/2011 3:14pm
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
yup. I was lucky and it took 4 months to get my frame back. his work was 2nd to none, too bad.
10/1/2011 3:25pm
Sorry for the following thread hijack...

yota, any chance you might want to sell your '83 XC125?
scooter5002
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10/1/2011 3:52pm
ehr400, now you've done it. I've had a Styxx song stuck in my friggin head all day. "Do mi ora goto Mr Retardo COME ON come on. COME ON come on. Thanks. JUST what I needed. Lol. (With apologies to Dennis DeYoung)
scooter5002
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10/1/2011 3:53pm
Sorry for the following thread hijack...

yota, any chance you might want to sell your '83 XC125?
Sorry for the hijack? Lol. You read the REST of the crap in here?
Flesh206
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Perrys, OH US
10/1/2011 4:40pm
ehr400 wrote:
I have welded and done a few of these myself. Pretty easy to do honestly. Actually go to www.bannedcr500rider.com. They have more insite to it. I...
I have welded and done a few of these myself. Pretty easy to do honestly. Actually go to www.bannedcr500rider.com. They have more insite to it.

I have a buddy who is running a 2011 YZ250F chassis with the '94 YZ250 motor, loves it. He rides 250 "B" class and claims it handles better then the four stroke motor. He got 4th at the baja brawl on that bike.
Lol, you've welded a few huh...interesting.
scooter5002
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10/1/2011 9:38pm
So you are saying you know ehr400? You callin' him out? Do I smell a gunfight at the OK Corral comin up? You work together in Perrysburg, just outside Toledo as he has alluded to? C'mon, Flesh, you got somethin', SPILL IT! Don't hide behind the keyboard, Rambo! C'mon out, both six shooters a-blazin'!
scooter5002
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10/2/2011 7:48am
Wrong SONG you meathead! Lol. Do mi ora goto MR. ROBOTO! Geez.................... Hell, why didn't you just post up that piece of crap "Babe"?
stillwelding
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Santa Clarita, CA US
10/2/2011 10:22am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
ehr400 wrote:
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was...
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was pretty arrogant.

I didnt know that team trubble did that! Wow, that is some B.S., glad I didnt send him any money! Did you guys get any of that shit resolved then? I have done a few honda 250f's by cutting the weld and trimming back the down tube. Worked out real well.

BTW I am a Engineer but have been welding professionally for 17 years and am very critical of other peoples welds, espicially Mr. Retardo. I see you live in Ontario, you come over to our side much?
Did you go to Ferris State?
TerryB
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Cambridge, MN US
10/2/2011 1:13pm
You guys need to consult with AJ. I believe most of the 250f platform chassis' are more than adequate to handle an upgrade (yes I said "upgrade") to a 250 burner, at a weight savings vs. putting it in a 450 chassis.

Just an observation worth checking in to.
10/2/2011 2:00pm
I am pretty sure the 250/450 frames are identical, other than the 2 spars (cradle) that go under the engine.. The head angle may be different too, but I havent looked into it
ehr400
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10/3/2011 2:24am
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys...
ehr, bit of a story to that piece. That Teem Trubble guy started out great, and turned into a total douchebag. Ripped a bunch of guys off to the tune of some 30 Grand that can be accounted for. Be grateful you weren't one of them. Hit the site. Fellow on there Solid Bro MIGHT be able to hook you up. He does fab work on his own, but maybe he would crank out some of those for you. The guys work is AWESOME! Unlike Monsieur George "I'm A Retard" Fanelli.
ehr400 wrote:
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was...
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was pretty arrogant.

I didnt know that team trubble did that! Wow, that is some B.S., glad I didnt send him any money! Did you guys get any of that shit resolved then? I have done a few honda 250f's by cutting the weld and trimming back the down tube. Worked out real well.

BTW I am a Engineer but have been welding professionally for 17 years and am very critical of other peoples welds, espicially Mr. Retardo. I see you live in Ontario, you come over to our side much?
Did you go to Ferris State?
Yes I did Stillwelding. you must know some people who went there I assume? Not many people know about the degree let alone where you can get it at. Lol

Flesh, he is a angry little man that lives in his moms basement that doesnt ride dirt bikes. Laughing
ehr400
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Britton, MI US
10/3/2011 2:25am
TerryB wrote:
You guys need to consult with AJ. I believe most of the 250f platform chassis' are more than adequate to handle an upgrade (yes I said...
You guys need to consult with AJ. I believe most of the 250f platform chassis' are more than adequate to handle an upgrade (yes I said "upgrade") to a 250 burner, at a weight savings vs. putting it in a 450 chassis.

Just an observation worth checking in to.
The main reason he uses the 250F platform is it is easier to sell the motors. I heard that straight from his mouth. Plus it is a little cheaper for the bike up front.
ehr400
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10/3/2011 2:26am
Wrong SONG you meathead! Lol. Do mi ora goto MR. ROBOTO! Geez.................... Hell, why didn't you just post up that piece of crap "Babe"?
Hey do you own one of MPS's bikes?
mxtech1
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1968
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Galesburg, IL US
10/3/2011 5:49am
Thanks for the info guys! good links with lots of information.

I took my buddies 2009 rmz250 frame into work with me this weekend and layed it out using a coordinate measuring machine. I did some measuring on the engine and combined the information in Autocad Inventor to make a 3d drawing. I'm going to use the same material stock to mod my frame as what's already used in the frame.

After i did some stress-strain analysis with inventor, I found the junction where the small tubes come together was a potential weak area as there just isn't enough weldable surface there. I used weights taken from the engine and then ran some simulations using what I think are forces and pressures that might be seen on the frame through normal riding. I found that if I mill a 1" long plug to weld inside the tube, the weld joint then becomes plenty strong.

So, I have everything drawn out for the frame mod and engine mounts. I believe I found a donor 08 rmz250 from a buddy so it looks like i will have a nice winter project in the works!
Erick
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NL
10/3/2011 5:52am Edited Date/Time 10/3/2011 5:54am
mxtech1 wrote:
Thanks for the info guys! good links with lots of information. I took my buddies 2009 rmz250 frame into work with me this weekend and layed...
Thanks for the info guys! good links with lots of information.

I took my buddies 2009 rmz250 frame into work with me this weekend and layed it out using a coordinate measuring machine. I did some measuring on the engine and combined the information in Autocad Inventor to make a 3d drawing. I'm going to use the same material stock to mod my frame as what's already used in the frame.

After i did some stress-strain analysis with inventor, I found the junction where the small tubes come together was a potential weak area as there just isn't enough weldable surface there. I used weights taken from the engine and then ran some simulations using what I think are forces and pressures that might be seen on the frame through normal riding. I found that if I mill a 1" long plug to weld inside the tube, the weld joint then becomes plenty strong.

So, I have everything drawn out for the frame mod and engine mounts. I believe I found a donor 08 rmz250 from a buddy so it looks like i will have a nice winter project in the works!
Awesome work, do you have any screenshots of the analysis? I am very interested

Have you also considered the material degradation of the aluminium itself in the FEM analysis? Did you also consider frame torsional and lateral ridgidity?

And what is the type of aluminium used? Did you lab test it?
mxtech1
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Galesburg, IL US
10/3/2011 6:16am
I will work on getting a screenshot image, tried to make one but I was having difficulties interfacing the 3d drawing into a jpeg. I found a software on the internet that may work so i need to download that and try it. The frame is still rough in the drawing, I need to go back again with the coordinate measuring machine and put in more detail.

I simulated aersospace grade al that will match the wall thickness found on the factory frame. I was able to find some pretty good parameters for this material through our QC lab at work who had done some work with material similiar in the past. They had some record of rockwell testing, shear strength, torsional strength, and a few strain analysis tests.

As far as material degradation on a used frame, I wouldn't know how else to compare it to new stock other than cutting up a frame and having our QC lab run some tests on it. If you would like to donate a frame for testing I would be more than happy to report back with results Smile

Torsional rigidity is a whole nother beast in itself. It would take some pretty serious equipment, math, and physics to figure out what kind of torsion the frame sees during riding. The tests i did were using forces perpendicular and parallel to the modification. I know more testing could be done, but i gurantee that some of these companies modifying frames aren't even going this deep into their development and they seem to be having good results. I'm glad i did it though because if I wouldn't have seen the y joint needs an inner plug, I probably would have learned a hard lesson the first time.
Flesh206
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Perrys, OH US
10/3/2011 6:53am
ehr400 wrote:
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was...
I live and work near Mr. MPS. I wasnt to impressed with his craftsmanship and more importantly the price for a used bike. Plus he was pretty arrogant.

I didnt know that team trubble did that! Wow, that is some B.S., glad I didnt send him any money! Did you guys get any of that shit resolved then? I have done a few honda 250f's by cutting the weld and trimming back the down tube. Worked out real well.

BTW I am a Engineer but have been welding professionally for 17 years and am very critical of other peoples welds, espicially Mr. Retardo. I see you live in Ontario, you come over to our side much?
Did you go to Ferris State?
ehr400 wrote:
Yes I did Stillwelding. you must know some people who went there I assume? Not many people know about the degree let alone where you can...
Yes I did Stillwelding. you must know some people who went there I assume? Not many people know about the degree let alone where you can get it at. Lol

Flesh, he is a angry little man that lives in his moms basement that doesnt ride dirt bikes. Laughing
Lol, still more fibbing! Any other interesting information you'd like to present?
ehr400
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Britton, MI US
10/3/2011 7:54am
Good to see you just rolled out of bed. Believe it or not little guy I have welded 2 guys frames that were doing converstions 3-4 years ago. They had everything all set just needed it welded.

You still mad because I banged you mom?

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