Broke my piston on my RM

crowe176
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Spring Lake, MI, USA
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 4:05am
07 RM250. I thought I threw a reed, so I started there. That was fine. When I pulled the reed block out and looked in there, I could see the cracks in the piston. There was even a chunk lying on the edge of the intake port.

Quick question. The only other time I'ive done this is on a few CR's that I rode and the cylinders were trashed on those. (ring on exhaust side let go, have a pile of cylinders to prove it)

The bottom back half of the piston is cracked/shattered, so it doesnt' look like it did any damage to the cylinder wall. I haven't taken the piston out though, I only took the head off to see what the damage looked like. Any chance I'll be able to save the cylinder? They aren't as cheap as CR's.

And, what do you guys think? Split the cases and top end, depending on what else I find when I finish taking it a part..

Man, I'm really bummed. I just got my suspension figured out and it was actually running super crisp. Now some shit like this happens, and its always going to feel like I'm riding a time bomb.
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Crash82
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5/29/2008 5:30am
Ya, you should just give me the bike, save yourself some money.
BDOG
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5/29/2008 5:30am
My 450 was running great this weekend! Sorry to hear.
Racer92
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5/29/2008 5:32am
What kind of fuel did you have? You may have detonated a bad batch of gas and the shock wave went all thru the reciprocating assembly.

Yes, split the cases. Do it right.
crowe176
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5/29/2008 5:47am
Just running pump with maxima. I'm pretty sure the gas was good. I paid almost $4.50 a gallon for it.

The Shop

RNagy052
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5/29/2008 6:06am
crowe176 wrote:
Just running pump with maxima. I'm pretty sure the gas was good. I paid almost $4.50 a gallon for it.
Sorry about your piston, but I got a good chuckle out of your gas comment.
newmann
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5/29/2008 6:19am
crowe176 wrote:
Just running pump with maxima. I'm pretty sure the gas was good. I paid almost $4.50 a gallon for it.
That's a classic there!!!
chadwik74
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5/29/2008 6:56am
HOF
Moto East Mag
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5/29/2008 7:01am
Short answer- yes, you should be able to salvage it.
Recently my RM250 piston fragged and took a nice slice out of the wall, right near a port. My buddy at Heavy Duty Racing honed it very slightly and sandblasted the whole cylinder for a couple hundred $$$. Now it barks.
He's in Virginia, and you're in Michigan, but give him a shout if you want. You can mail it to him.
Heavy Duty Racing Stafford, VA. Contact: Pete Payne Phone: 540-659-6994

If there is no visible damage I would just throw in a new piston. RMs run hot on pump gas btw. I mix race gas 50/50 with pump.
raddad
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5/29/2008 7:29am
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90% of us are on 4 stks we quickly forget the constant tear downs/inspections we did all those years ago. It was normal to to a total top end 5-10 times or more per 25 race season to prevent the problem you are having not to mention to try to keep a decent amount of power our of that 2 stk.

I can remember tearing down our motors each week to inspect/replace parts not to mention we would go through a clutch at least every other week on those things. Our race bikes were our practice bikes also so they were getting tons of time on them. BUT so are our 4 stks that we ride today!

On our 450's we tear down once a year to inspect and only more frequently if something actually goes wrong like hard starting or the very rare clutch. Pros of course tear down each race but most amateurs go a year or more on a motor now. Sure, you can get a lemon or have problems with a poorly maintained motor but again its rare. The good old days really were not that good unless you enjoy late nights fixing the smoker!
Racer92
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5/29/2008 7:35am
Ive raced entire harescramble series before - hours of time per race clutching like mad in tight woods - (not just two short motos and go home) on OEM clutches and during the winter freshen up, mic'd the clutch fibers and they were still in spec.
todder
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5/29/2008 7:35am
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock RM250 and it pings even with the best pump gas I can find,93 with no alcohol. I run straight AV gas, 100 octane and its about the same price. No detonation or pinging.
BDOG
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5/29/2008 7:36am
raddad wrote:
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90%...
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90% of us are on 4 stks we quickly forget the constant tear downs/inspections we did all those years ago. It was normal to to a total top end 5-10 times or more per 25 race season to prevent the problem you are having not to mention to try to keep a decent amount of power our of that 2 stk.

I can remember tearing down our motors each week to inspect/replace parts not to mention we would go through a clutch at least every other week on those things. Our race bikes were our practice bikes also so they were getting tons of time on them. BUT so are our 4 stks that we ride today!

On our 450's we tear down once a year to inspect and only more frequently if something actually goes wrong like hard starting or the very rare clutch. Pros of course tear down each race but most amateurs go a year or more on a motor now. Sure, you can get a lemon or have problems with a poorly maintained motor but again its rare. The good old days really were not that good unless you enjoy late nights fixing the smoker!
My 4 stroke have been more reliable than my smokers.
crowe176
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5/29/2008 8:00am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 7:07pm
todder wrote:
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock...
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock RM250 and it pings even with the best pump gas I can find,93 with no alcohol. I run straight AV gas, 100 octane and its about the same price. No detonation or pinging.
What exactly does a "detonation or ping" feel or sound like or when is it noticable?

I was probably due for a top end by manufacturs standards, but the bike was still tight and crisp as ever. It was relativly low hour. (I'm still on my stock brake pads) I didn't ride it much last season at all, and only about 4 times this season. I'm not even at the point to being in riding shape yet. I usually due a top end middle of season..
crowe176
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5/29/2008 8:06am Edited Date/Time 5/29/2008 8:09am
Hey Steve (moto 814), if you happen to read this, I haven't seen you on lately and your forums on your website don't work. Are you pretty busy or are you still around? I'm thinking it's going to be coming your way while it's apart and was curious if you would split my cases too.
CR500Rider
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5/29/2008 8:27am
raddad wrote:
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90%...
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90% of us are on 4 stks we quickly forget the constant tear downs/inspections we did all those years ago. It was normal to to a total top end 5-10 times or more per 25 race season to prevent the problem you are having not to mention to try to keep a decent amount of power our of that 2 stk.

I can remember tearing down our motors each week to inspect/replace parts not to mention we would go through a clutch at least every other week on those things. Our race bikes were our practice bikes also so they were getting tons of time on them. BUT so are our 4 stks that we ride today!

On our 450's we tear down once a year to inspect and only more frequently if something actually goes wrong like hard starting or the very rare clutch. Pros of course tear down each race but most amateurs go a year or more on a motor now. Sure, you can get a lemon or have problems with a poorly maintained motor but again its rare. The good old days really were not that good unless you enjoy late nights fixing the smoker!
I call BS. I've seen more 4 strokes puking their guts out than I ever did 2 strokes. You want to compare costs on rebuilding each? I never tore down a 2 stroke each week and I sure as hell never replaced a clutch every other week and I'm talking about 125s and racing the A class. My 500 won't even go through clutches every other week unless if you're an idiot. To those that know, if you had those problems, it wasn't the bike. Shoot, even in the 70's I didn't go through a clutch every other week. That's just crappy riding technique. From the sound of the OP, the cracked piston was nothing more than lack of maintainance or not knowing something was going on (ie" pinging). You love the 450s? Call me in 21 years and let me know how it's running, what it cost to keep it running and if it's worth keeping. My 87' CR500 is on it's 2nd over bore, original cylinder and WILL outpull your 450 down a straight, up a hill, whatever. It's a proven fact. The longetivity of a 500 probably has something to do with it turning about 4,000 RPM slower than a 450 while putting out more power. Go figure.
moto589
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5/29/2008 8:33am
Been through many top end changes and have had some pistons blow-up, crack, or shatter. To save time on splitting the cases, I would just take a shop vac, a small hose, spray carb cleaner into the bottom end and suck the debris out.
maicoman
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5/29/2008 8:37am
todder wrote:
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock...
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock RM250 and it pings even with the best pump gas I can find,93 with no alcohol. I run straight AV gas, 100 octane and its about the same price. No detonation or pinging.
crowe176 wrote:
What exactly does a "detonation or ping" feel or sound like or when is it noticable? I was probably due for a top end by manufacturs...
What exactly does a "detonation or ping" feel or sound like or when is it noticable?

I was probably due for a top end by manufacturs standards, but the bike was still tight and crisp as ever. It was relativly low hour. (I'm still on my stock brake pads) I didn't ride it much last season at all, and only about 4 times this season. I'm not even at the point to being in riding shape yet. I usually due a top end middle of season..
I'm no expert on RM's but our YZ 250 HAS to have a 50/50 mix of race fuel (anything with at least 105 octane) or it will ping and seize, that's with a fast rider at the Dunes. With my slow ass on it, it just pings, which sounds like a knocking, clanking sound.

crowe176
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5/29/2008 9:19am
I'm pretty sure it was pinging then, but during really high rpm/hard pull. In high speed sections with deep loam it would kind of knock.
Cygnus
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5/29/2008 9:20am
Leaded fuel is a dirtbikes best friend 2 or 4 stroke .
breck
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5/29/2008 9:25am
My friends RM250 blew part of the piston into the pipe... Chucks everywhere!
crowe176
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5/29/2008 9:26am
Yeah, some of my piston was in there too.
raddad
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5/29/2008 9:44am
raddad wrote:
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90%...
I'm glad you posted this, sorry for your problems but i think that it brings the 2 stk VS. 4 stk into perspective. Now that 90% of us are on 4 stks we quickly forget the constant tear downs/inspections we did all those years ago. It was normal to to a total top end 5-10 times or more per 25 race season to prevent the problem you are having not to mention to try to keep a decent amount of power our of that 2 stk.

I can remember tearing down our motors each week to inspect/replace parts not to mention we would go through a clutch at least every other week on those things. Our race bikes were our practice bikes also so they were getting tons of time on them. BUT so are our 4 stks that we ride today!

On our 450's we tear down once a year to inspect and only more frequently if something actually goes wrong like hard starting or the very rare clutch. Pros of course tear down each race but most amateurs go a year or more on a motor now. Sure, you can get a lemon or have problems with a poorly maintained motor but again its rare. The good old days really were not that good unless you enjoy late nights fixing the smoker!
CR500Rider wrote:
I call BS. I've seen more 4 strokes puking their guts out than I ever did 2 strokes. You want to compare costs on rebuilding each...
I call BS. I've seen more 4 strokes puking their guts out than I ever did 2 strokes. You want to compare costs on rebuilding each? I never tore down a 2 stroke each week and I sure as hell never replaced a clutch every other week and I'm talking about 125s and racing the A class. My 500 won't even go through clutches every other week unless if you're an idiot. To those that know, if you had those problems, it wasn't the bike. Shoot, even in the 70's I didn't go through a clutch every other week. That's just crappy riding technique. From the sound of the OP, the cracked piston was nothing more than lack of maintainance or not knowing something was going on (ie" pinging). You love the 450s? Call me in 21 years and let me know how it's running, what it cost to keep it running and if it's worth keeping. My 87' CR500 is on it's 2nd over bore, original cylinder and WILL outpull your 450 down a straight, up a hill, whatever. It's a proven fact. The longetivity of a 500 probably has something to do with it turning about 4,000 RPM slower than a 450 while putting out more power. Go figure.
I agree that the 500's last longer than a smaller bore bike just like a 450 4 stk last longer than a 250 2 stk does. Both are ridden at lower RPM's so do not create the kinds of problems the small bores do.

If you did not use the shite out of your clutch on your small bore 2 stk then you were not getting all you could out of it. If you did well lugging that 125 around then you are a hero and a great rider! But most of us use the clutch constantly to explode out of each and every corner on a 2 stk under 500cc. Now days on a modern 4 stk most non-pros use the clutch to get off the line and maybe once or twice a lap and that's about it.

Ya you are right about the power, i deal with a guy each week that rides one of those things and he takes me 75% of the time to the first corner and up big hills but after that it becomes rider no matter what you ride. But i can tell you this, he is more shot than i am at the end of a moto hanging on to that rocket!
Moto East Mag
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5/29/2008 10:46am
todder wrote:
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock...
Sounds like you have been running not quite enough octane. Eventually detonation will crack the piston assuming you have no other problems. I have a stock RM250 and it pings even with the best pump gas I can find,93 with no alcohol. I run straight AV gas, 100 octane and its about the same price. No detonation or pinging.
crowe176 wrote:
What exactly does a "detonation or ping" feel or sound like or when is it noticable? I was probably due for a top end by manufacturs...
What exactly does a "detonation or ping" feel or sound like or when is it noticable?

I was probably due for a top end by manufacturs standards, but the bike was still tight and crisp as ever. It was relativly low hour. (I'm still on my stock brake pads) I didn't ride it much last season at all, and only about 4 times this season. I'm not even at the point to being in riding shape yet. I usually due a top end middle of season..
I think if the bike is detonating it will "surge." Like when you are coming into corners and pull in the clutch, and the revs climb even with the throttle all the way off (sounds like someone adjusting the idle). It's very similar to the noise a two stroke makes when it is about to run out of gas.
My RM, if I run pump gas, will start doing this late in motos, especially on hilly and/or sandy tracks where it runs hot.
CR500Rider
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5/29/2008 11:00am
raddad wrote:
I agree that the 500's last longer than a smaller bore bike just like a 450 4 stk last longer than a 250 2 stk does...
I agree that the 500's last longer than a smaller bore bike just like a 450 4 stk last longer than a 250 2 stk does. Both are ridden at lower RPM's so do not create the kinds of problems the small bores do.

If you did not use the shite out of your clutch on your small bore 2 stk then you were not getting all you could out of it. If you did well lugging that 125 around then you are a hero and a great rider! But most of us use the clutch constantly to explode out of each and every corner on a 2 stk under 500cc. Now days on a modern 4 stk most non-pros use the clutch to get off the line and maybe once or twice a lap and that's about it.

Ya you are right about the power, i deal with a guy each week that rides one of those things and he takes me 75% of the time to the first corner and up big hills but after that it becomes rider no matter what you ride. But i can tell you this, he is more shot than i am at the end of a moto hanging on to that rocket!
I've never had problems with clutches and I used the shit out of it, Every turn, down straights. My finger never leaves the clutch. I use the clutch alot on the 500 as well. I also change my oil alot too which I believe is the ticket to long clutch life. I use Rotella T, about $10 a gallon. Zero clutch issues. I agree, it doesn't matter what you ride, at the end of the day, it's the rider. People are seriously in denial if they think JS couldn't climb on a 250 2 stroke and do the same thing he's doing now. I just know my 21 year old 500 is easily capable of running with 450s and it does.Imagine what it'll do in a modern chassis. Check that redline on the 450. There's nothing low RPM about it. That's one thing that always gets me. People talk about the low RPM torque of a 4 stroke yet those bikes rev out higher than 2 strokes and I've never seen anyone in the B class or higher lugging one around to use that low end tractabilty. That's funny too. Tractability. An XR600 has tractable power. A fire breathing 450 MXer is not tractable or any more so than a later model CR500. Mines the early motor so it's unfortionately an explosive monster.Way funner to ride though. It only sucks on hard pack. I guess what I was really saying is everything you said to be true is the exact opposite of my experiences in racing since 1976 (I turned Pro in 82' BTW). I believe the guy answered what we needed to know when he said it would knock in deep dirt. Nothing will survive in those conditions for very long. Probably was running pump gas when it needed just a bit more octane.
Jabjr222
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5/29/2008 11:02am
You know, everyone on here keeps talking about what fuel he was running... what about jetting? What about what oil was being used and at what ratio?

Dude, you have apparently blown a lot of motors... I was a fast local intermediate and have only blown one motor (and that was a bit of sabotage by a competitor, loosened my plug a bit).

As for tearing down 2 strokes, yes, you do tear them down more but it takes less than an hour to completely rebuild a top end and you don't have to mortgage the house if you blow an engine.
Jabjr222
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5/29/2008 11:03am
Regarding clutch issues, never had them on my 125. Rode the hell out of it and abused the clutch, but changed the oil after every race weekend, Bel-Ray gear saver or Motul or Silkolene... all worked great.
CR500Rider
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5/29/2008 12:20pm
Jabjr222 wrote:
You know, everyone on here keeps talking about what fuel he was running... what about jetting? What about what oil was being used and at what...
You know, everyone on here keeps talking about what fuel he was running... what about jetting? What about what oil was being used and at what ratio?

Dude, you have apparently blown a lot of motors... I was a fast local intermediate and have only blown one motor (and that was a bit of sabotage by a competitor, loosened my plug a bit).

As for tearing down 2 strokes, yes, you do tear them down more but it takes less than an hour to completely rebuild a top end and you don't have to mortgage the house if you blow an engine.
The symptoms he gave points to too low of an octane fuel, not jetting. Slapping different jets in won't solve low octane problems. Oil ratios won't either. How did you blow a motor up with a loose spark plug? Loose plugs fall out, the bike stops running, you put it back in, the bike runs.
mxrose3
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Delmar, DE, USA
5/29/2008 12:33pm
If the cylinder is scarred up, buy yourself a Wiseco 2mm bigger piston and send it to Powerseal and they can bore it and re-coat it with nikasil for just over $200

www.powersealusa.com
Racer92
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5/29/2008 12:55pm
How did you blow a motor up with a loose spark plug? Loose plugs fall out, the bike stops running, you put it back in, the bike runs.

Laughing


If the cylinder is scarred up, buy yourself a Wiseco 2mm bigger piston and send it to Powerseal and they can bore it and re-coat it with nikasil for just over $200

Just keep in mind that Wiseco is forged and not cast like OEM. The expansion rate of forged pistons varies and its imperative to let the cylinder/piston heat up to operating temp before you hammer it, otherwise you may gall a cylinder or skirt.
croom mx
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miami, FL, USA
5/29/2008 2:19pm
crowe176 wrote:
07 RM250. I thought I threw a reed, so I started there. That was fine. When I pulled the reed block out and looked in there...
07 RM250. I thought I threw a reed, so I started there. That was fine. When I pulled the reed block out and looked in there, I could see the cracks in the piston. There was even a chunk lying on the edge of the intake port.

Quick question. The only other time I'ive done this is on a few CR's that I rode and the cylinders were trashed on those. (ring on exhaust side let go, have a pile of cylinders to prove it)

The bottom back half of the piston is cracked/shattered, so it doesnt' look like it did any damage to the cylinder wall. I haven't taken the piston out though, I only took the head off to see what the damage looked like. Any chance I'll be able to save the cylinder? They aren't as cheap as CR's.

And, what do you guys think? Split the cases and top end, depending on what else I find when I finish taking it a part..

Man, I'm really bummed. I just got my suspension figured out and it was actually running super crisp. Now some shit like this happens, and its always going to feel like I'm riding a time bomb.
Pull the cylinder off, inspect, if its not bad put in a new piston and rings. You dont have to split the cases if there are little pieces down in the crank take a high pressure garden hose wash it out real good until there are no small bits at all. Lean the bike on its side when you wash out the crank. Ive done it before works well. After that spray the crank with WD40. so you wont have rust.

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