Dungey and KTM are a done deal I guess

panic revver 7/19/2011 7:22pm
7/19/2011 7:22pm
raddad wrote:
some of you don't race do you..
or ride, it seems.
carlosmacho
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carlosmacho 7/19/2011 7:28pm
7/19/2011 7:28pm
Killer Customz wrote:
The 350 is not for everyone, but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450 too and you know it! Alessi struggled on...
The 350 is not for everyone, but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450 too and you know it! Alessi struggled on the 350, but he did on the 250F as well, which is why he jumped to the 450 class so quick. It takes a great 250F rider to ride the 350 competitivly and I feel you can not down size a guy from the 450 to the 350. Two totally different riding styles. I'll also state that I dont think the bike was designed for the top couple guys, its a great bike for the guy riding pro mid pack to get like 10-15 instead of 18-25th.
"but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450"

And how did you determine that? Usually you use history to make a claim or a prediction on the future, you act as if you know the future and can tell us for sure Short would get the same results.

Maybe you should go back and watch the races when Short was on a Honda. Fuel TV is great, I was watching Inside outdoor motocross, I watched Short take holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot and on and on. And now, nip, nope, nothing, nada. There were threads where people predicted Short would not longer take holeshots, those people were right.
redrider400
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redrider400 7/19/2011 7:30pm
7/19/2011 7:30pm
Killer Customz wrote:
Tyla Rattray's average lap time was 2.10. Ryan Dungeys average lap time was...you guessed it 2.10. So why is the 350 so bad? Also on Vurb...
Tyla Rattray's average lap time was 2.10. Ryan Dungeys average lap time was...you guessed it 2.10. So why is the 350 so bad? Also on Vurb Moto's Studs and Duds, Andrew Short was listed as a STUD because he was still able to charge so hard late in the moto. Hmmm?

http://www.racerxonline.com/2011/07/19/sign-of-the-lap-times-millville
raddad wrote:
The small bore is harder in general to ride against 450's in the pro ranks because they are ridden differently IMO. the small bore can lap...
The small bore is harder in general to ride against 450's in the pro ranks because they are ridden differently IMO. the small bore can lap as fast of times with other small bores but its harder to make passes or take hole shots when a 450 pulls you out of corners and up hills. Its just not the same when the two are mixed it seems unless the rider is pretty special.
Mainly because the 350 weighs the same at the 450's. The 250's are lighter.
Don't Tread on Me 7/19/2011 7:36pm
7/19/2011 7:36pm
raddad wrote:
I am not sure what all the pros think but a carb will always bog, there is no fix period.. if you crack the throttle wide...
I am not sure what all the pros think but a carb will always bog, there is no fix period.. if you crack the throttle wide open quickly it WILL bog. If RD rides one of those things i hope he feels/is told it will be fuel injected and competitive in every way possible. I hope its not true and he stays with screwlooski!Smile I will never own another carb bike or car or snowmobile or PWC or even a mower! They are shite!
Don't Tread on Me wrote:
what engineering shool did you go to?

I just want to know so I don't send my kid to the same one you went to.
raddad wrote:
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb...
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb go out, get on the track, crack the throttle wide open quickly at the base of any jump to seat bounce it or simply to clear it and if you have a carb it WILL bog..if you have EFI it will NOT bog. Now slam the throttle on an old car and the same on an EFI car then a snowmobile then a PWC and if you cannot make the carb bog.. you are not on it hard enough. You obviously have no real world experience.. Now STFU newb
I have vast amounts of real world experience. Your hatred for the only manufacturer that does anything for motorcycle enthusiasts is disappointing. I believe the factory race team can make a carb function well enough to run with the rest of the bikes on the track. Your last comment is as tired as the rest of your stupidity.

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jasonv43
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jasonv43 7/19/2011 7:38pm
7/19/2011 7:38pm
IceMan446 wrote:
If its jetted properly that wont happen. How the hell did all the other riders ride before efi? Chad made it such a huge issue in...
If its jetted properly that wont happen. How the hell did all the other riders ride before efi? Chad made it such a huge issue in the last few years but I seem to remember a guy on a blue Yamaha winning a sx title a few years ago along with winning races recently.

EFI is better but the carb version will work just fine.
raddad wrote:
No amount of jetting will help, if you think so then you do not ride hard enough and have not compared the two. I should downgrade...
No amount of jetting will help, if you think so then you do not ride hard enough and have not compared the two. I should downgrade "bog" to "hesitate" and then maybe it makes more sense. I defy anyone to crack a throttle wide open as fast as you can from idle to full throttle on a carbed bike and say it will not hesitate, bog or completely die! I said from idle not at mid range etc. that is where the problem comes in. when you least expect it the thing bogs. But with EFI never ever will it happen period.. thats all I'm trying to say here folks!
trent079 wrote:
I'm glad you "ride hard" enough to explain it to us. Bad ass!
How's Dungey gonna be able to make up those 14 seconds every moto on Reed if he's not running EFI?Laughing
lopez130
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lopez130 7/19/2011 7:41pm
7/19/2011 7:41pm
raddad wrote:
No amount of jetting will help, if you think so then you do not ride hard enough and have not compared the two. I should downgrade...
No amount of jetting will help, if you think so then you do not ride hard enough and have not compared the two. I should downgrade "bog" to "hesitate" and then maybe it makes more sense. I defy anyone to crack a throttle wide open as fast as you can from idle to full throttle on a carbed bike and say it will not hesitate, bog or completely die! I said from idle not at mid range etc. that is where the problem comes in. when you least expect it the thing bogs. But with EFI never ever will it happen period.. thats all I'm trying to say here folks!
trent079 wrote:
I'm glad you "ride hard" enough to explain it to us. Bad ass!
jasonv43 wrote:
How's Dungey gonna be able to make up those 14 seconds every moto on Reed if he's not running EFI?Laughing
U mean how is he gonna come back from 14 seconds Twice... Whistling
panic revver 7/19/2011 7:41pm
7/19/2011 7:41pm
Don't Tread on Me wrote:
what engineering shool did you go to?

I just want to know so I don't send my kid to the same one you went to.
raddad wrote:
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb...
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb go out, get on the track, crack the throttle wide open quickly at the base of any jump to seat bounce it or simply to clear it and if you have a carb it WILL bog..if you have EFI it will NOT bog. Now slam the throttle on an old car and the same on an EFI car then a snowmobile then a PWC and if you cannot make the carb bog.. you are not on it hard enough. You obviously have no real world experience.. Now STFU newb
Don't Tread on Me wrote:
I have vast amounts of real world experience. Your hatred for the only manufacturer that does anything for motorcycle enthusiasts is disappointing. I believe the factory...
I have vast amounts of real world experience. Your hatred for the only manufacturer that does anything for motorcycle enthusiasts is disappointing. I believe the factory race team can make a carb function well enough to run with the rest of the bikes on the track. Your last comment is as tired as the rest of your stupidity.
lmao. Ya man KTM is the only manufacturer doing anything for the enthusiasts. Your continued ignorance is disappointing. If a carbed bike is better then why do we have EFI?
Crush
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Crush 7/19/2011 7:44pm
7/19/2011 7:44pm
I hope he had it written into his contract that there would be a new bike, cause KTM did that with MC and GL back in the day... supposedly had a one off bitchen 2003 SX 250, linkage blah blah, but then turned up with the old bike... MC and GL looking stunned on the way to the mat...
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CamP 7/19/2011 8:22pm
7/19/2011 8:22pm
Fuel injection is over-rated...and expensive.
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yosmithy 7/19/2011 8:32pm
7/19/2011 8:32pm
raddad wrote:
I am not sure what all the pros think but a carb will always bog, there is no fix period.. if you crack the throttle wide...
I am not sure what all the pros think but a carb will always bog, there is no fix period.. if you crack the throttle wide open quickly it WILL bog. If RD rides one of those things i hope he feels/is told it will be fuel injected and competitive in every way possible. I hope its not true and he stays with screwlooski!Smile I will never own another carb bike or car or snowmobile or PWC or even a mower! They are shite!
Don't Tread on Me wrote:
what engineering shool did you go to?

I just want to know so I don't send my kid to the same one you went to.
raddad wrote:
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb...
if you have any experience at all in these matters, you would know what i mean. Find a bike with EFI and one with a carb go out, get on the track, crack the throttle wide open quickly at the base of any jump to seat bounce it or simply to clear it and if you have a carb it WILL bog..if you have EFI it will NOT bog. Now slam the throttle on an old car and the same on an EFI car then a snowmobile then a PWC and if you cannot make the carb bog.. you are not on it hard enough. You obviously have no real world experience.. Now STFU newb
I knew kids that just didn't do well in shop class. They were great in pottery and some did really well in band class.
Killer Customz
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Killer Customz 7/19/2011 9:07pm
7/19/2011 9:07pm
Moto East Mag wrote:
The KTMs got good write-ups from some pretty well-qualified testers, and maybe CarlosMacho hasn't been watching too many GPs or off-road, where KTM kills it. A...
The KTMs got good write-ups from some pretty well-qualified testers, and maybe CarlosMacho hasn't been watching too many GPs or off-road, where KTM kills it.
A 350 might hinder Short, but it's not going to hinder a rider in Vet B or even Vet A- where 250s beat 450s unlike the pros.
And KTM is holding up the 2-stroke flag, which is commendable. It rocks in fact.
carlosmacho wrote:
I don't base my personal experiences on what a mag writes up. Motocross action, Dirtbike, you name it, everyone has bias. Every person that I know...
I don't base my personal experiences on what a mag writes up. Motocross action, Dirtbike, you name it, everyone has bias. Every person that I know that has a KTM has put thousands in to the suspension just to make it work even the vets and novices, and after riding a few stock KTMs I would have to agree. That is because suspension does hinder even the slower riders. And I know a few Vet B and A riders that are not 150lb rider, those bigger guys can feel the difference.

As far a two strokes. Great, and I never said the enduro models were bad. I just don't like them and would not buy one. I have a two stroke, it is a KX500 and it holds up very well too.
Just curious and not trying to be rude, but what kind of riding or racing do you do and what class? Also which KTM motorcycles have you riden?

Also where are these guys getting their suspension done where they are putting thousands into it?
Killer Customz
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Killer Customz 7/19/2011 9:15pm
7/19/2011 9:15pm
Killer Customz wrote:
The 350 is not for everyone, but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450 too and you know it! Alessi struggled on...
The 350 is not for everyone, but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450 too and you know it! Alessi struggled on the 350, but he did on the 250F as well, which is why he jumped to the 450 class so quick. It takes a great 250F rider to ride the 350 competitivly and I feel you can not down size a guy from the 450 to the 350. Two totally different riding styles. I'll also state that I dont think the bike was designed for the top couple guys, its a great bike for the guy riding pro mid pack to get like 10-15 instead of 18-25th.
carlosmacho wrote:
"but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450" And how did you determine that? Usually you use history to make a claim...
"but Short would be getting the same exact results on a 450"

And how did you determine that? Usually you use history to make a claim or a prediction on the future, you act as if you know the future and can tell us for sure Short would get the same results.

Maybe you should go back and watch the races when Short was on a Honda. Fuel TV is great, I was watching Inside outdoor motocross, I watched Short take holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot, after holeshot and on and on. And now, nip, nope, nothing, nada. There were threads where people predicted Short would not longer take holeshots, those people were right.
and you need to look at the results and count the riders that were racing him. Just because there is a 40 man gate doesnt mean its the same 40 as a few years ago!
jemcee
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jemcee 7/19/2011 9:49pm
7/19/2011 9:49pm
just listen to how often byrner is absolutely wide open on his 450 and not a lot of cracking it wide open either... I think the 350 would be fine in fact i'd rather the class be a 350 class, make the riding more aggressive and wide open




HighCam
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HighCam 7/19/2011 10:05pm
7/19/2011 10:05pm
Mstock wrote:
Wouldn't KTM have to release, ship and sell a 2012 1/2 model prior to the start of the SX series? They already burned up the one...
Wouldn't KTM have to release, ship and sell a 2012 1/2 model prior to the start of the SX series? They already burned up the one year works bike deal a decade ago.
If Dungey did sign with KTM and they think he's going to race an EFI 450 with linkage in 2012. KTM had better have 400 of those exact motorcycle spread around the country and available to customers. These are the rules of AMA homologation. Because if they don't, they will not be able to race. Trust me, every team manager is waiting to hear what they are going to try to ride in 2012 and jump on it right away. Going to be a fight!!!
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HighCam 7/19/2011 10:13pm
7/19/2011 10:13pm
jemcee wrote:
just listen to how often byrner is absolutely wide open on his 450 and not a lot of cracking it wide open either... I think the...
just listen to how often byrner is absolutely wide open on his 450 and not a lot of cracking it wide open either... I think the 350 would be fine in fact i'd rather the class be a 350 class, make the riding more aggressive and wide open




Byrne isn't near as fast as many of the other top pro's. In the SX Go-Pro video, Nick Wey came up and past Byrne like he was tied to a tree. So I would use that as a comparison and the Go-Pro Video from Red Bud, he was passed by some 3 digit KTM rider.

Sorry to say that Burner's better days are behind him, so you might want to dig up some other Go-Pro vid's.
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jemcee 7/19/2011 10:27pm
7/19/2011 10:27pm
HighCam wrote:
Byrne isn't near as fast as many of the other top pro's. In the SX Go-Pro video, Nick Wey came up and past Byrne like he...
Byrne isn't near as fast as many of the other top pro's. In the SX Go-Pro video, Nick Wey came up and past Byrne like he was tied to a tree. So I would use that as a comparison and the Go-Pro Video from Red Bud, he was passed by some 3 digit KTM rider.

Sorry to say that Burner's better days are behind him, so you might want to dig up some other Go-Pro vid's.
I was so waiting for this... I couldn't find any faster guys (13th last weekend)
it was more to show that 99% of riders aren't using all the power of the 450

btw in the red bud vid dietrich was just in front of him weimer too and the 3 digit KTM rider was simmonds on a 350
Faceaz
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Faceaz 7/19/2011 10:32pm
7/19/2011 10:32pm
jemcee wrote:
just listen to how often byrner is absolutely wide open on his 450 and not a lot of cracking it wide open either... I think the...
just listen to how often byrner is absolutely wide open on his 450 and not a lot of cracking it wide open either... I think the 350 would be fine in fact i'd rather the class be a 350 class, make the riding more aggressive and wide open




Agree & disagree. I think the 350 can easily keep up & lead to more exciting racing. But, it needs to be ridden differently because it makes it's power at much higher RPMs. Watching how Byrne rides, could you imagine telling him, go out there & ride everywhere @ 2,000 to 3,000 more RPMs. Re-training a 450 rider to rev the bike, more like a 250 rider, has to be a tough task. IMO the 350's success will come when KTM gets a couple of the top lites riders on it. They will push it like it needs to be ridden, before they become point & shoot riders like every other 450 veteran.

Screw a 350 Class, we need an Open Class. All these "no replacement for displacement" guys can show up with 600cc singles & get their asses handed to them. It's truely the only way to find the optimum displacement. Would the "bigger is better" guys decide to go larger than 450, only to realize they were never really twisting the throttle to the stops in the first place, or would 450 all of a sudden become just the right size. While they're at it, they need to get rid of the Homologation Rule. I would love to see some Huskys & TM's out there, as well as some one-offs, but they're squeezed out by the rules. That rule is the #1 hinderance to our sport.
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jemcee 7/19/2011 10:38pm
7/19/2011 10:38pm
Faceaz wrote:
Agree & disagree. I think the 350 can easily keep up & lead to more exciting racing. But, it needs to be ridden differently because it...
Agree & disagree. I think the 350 can easily keep up & lead to more exciting racing. But, it needs to be ridden differently because it makes it's power at much higher RPMs. Watching how Byrne rides, could you imagine telling him, go out there & ride everywhere @ 2,000 to 3,000 more RPMs. Re-training a 450 rider to rev the bike, more like a 250 rider, has to be a tough task. IMO the 350's success will come when KTM gets a couple of the top lites riders on it. They will push it like it needs to be ridden, before they become point & shoot riders like every other 450 veteran.

Screw a 350 Class, we need an Open Class. All these "no replacement for displacement" guys can show up with 600cc singles & get their asses handed to them. It's truely the only way to find the optimum displacement. Would the "bigger is better" guys decide to go larger than 450, only to realize they were never really twisting the throttle to the stops in the first place, or would 450 all of a sudden become just the right size. While they're at it, they need to get rid of the Homologation Rule. I would love to see some Huskys & TM's out there, as well as some one-offs, but they're squeezed out by the rules. That rule is the #1 hinderance to our sport.
nah bugger the disagree I'm down with everything you just said

Pit Row

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williamsmotowerx 7/19/2011 11:32pm
7/19/2011 11:32pm
I think a 350 with a big bore kit will likely be the bike Dungey will end up riding if he's on orange.
steedmills 7/20/2011 1:51am
7/20/2011 1:51am Edited Date/Time 7/20/2011 2:01am
carlosmacho wrote:
I don't base my personal experiences on what a mag writes up. Motocross action, Dirtbike, you name it, everyone has bias. Every person that I know...
I don't base my personal experiences on what a mag writes up. Motocross action, Dirtbike, you name it, everyone has bias. Every person that I know that has a KTM has put thousands in to the suspension just to make it work even the vets and novices, and after riding a few stock KTMs I would have to agree. That is because suspension does hinder even the slower riders. And I know a few Vet B and A riders that are not 150lb rider, those bigger guys can feel the difference.

As far a two strokes. Great, and I never said the enduro models were bad. I just don't like them and would not buy one. I have a two stroke, it is a KX500 and it holds up very well too.
Every person that I know that has a KTM has put thousands in to the suspension just to make it work even the vets and novices?

suspension revalving, new front and rear spring, new oil, new SKF seals $700 / € 500 (I paid for it)

http://www.intraxracing.nl/?cat=page&id=424&title=History&lang=EN
Shawn142
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Shawn142 7/20/2011 4:21am
7/20/2011 4:21am Edited Date/Time 7/20/2011 4:24am
jamma10 wrote:
Which begs the question; how did he get x2 holeshots on a 250?
If you watch any races from Budds Creek since the MXON the start was changed around. Both motos the 450 rider gave their number 1 gate pick on the extreme inside leading into a 180 left to RV. So that means RV only had to control the tightest inside line, not get to the turn first which is exactly what he did. Guys on the outside were technically there first but not enough to cut him off and stop for his tight line. That starting line is the most bias toward qualifying position in the entire AMA series.

A better judgement of 250 vs 450 is look how everyone else did. I sure don't remember any other 250F rider getting a good start. And riding from the back is always difficult no matter what your lap times. Look how Reed go stuck behind Alessi for half the race a few rounds ago. If you don't start up front you're not going to run down whoever is up there. In a game of chance you load the deck in your favor as much as possible. Riding a 350 doesn't do that.
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seth505 7/20/2011 5:45am
7/20/2011 5:45am
I think it's hilarious when people bring up the mis-information that a carb is never going to work or be competitive all of a sudden. Probably same people that act like all 2 strokes are from the 70s all of a sudden.

As far as Dungey, if he is on a KTM and does as well as he has been doing then he will go down in history as one of the nicest/badass riders ever!
edub
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edub 7/20/2011 5:48am
7/20/2011 5:48am
Can´t understand why the 450 KTM with carb or EFI bothers you.
KTM has an old 450 engine with carb and an new 450 engine with Keihin EFI, which is offered right now in the 2012 enduro model 450 EXC.

The engine was in the news on MXA already

If there is a need in the US for a MX/SX 450 model with EFI they do have the engine for that.

So what is your problem with KTM 450 and EFI?

edub
Grieby54
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Grieby54 7/20/2011 6:08am
7/20/2011 6:08am
This just strikes me as a terrible career move. Dungey's career is very much on the upswing - why would he trade a championship proven bike (or the shot at other championship proven bikes) for one that is not only an unknown entity, but one that has been seen to turn careers the wrong direction? I know money talks, but it sounds like he's not being smart - he's wanting the immediate cash at the risk of going downhill and missing out on large payouts in the future.
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Madmax31 7/20/2011 6:13am
7/20/2011 6:13am
CamP wrote:
Fuel injection is over-rated...and expensive.
Someone gets it!!!!!!
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Madmax31 7/20/2011 6:15am
7/20/2011 6:15am
trent079 wrote:
Nobody in America has ever done anything after going to ktm, I think Dungey will change that statistic. He should have stayed on the zook in...
Nobody in America has ever done anything after going to ktm, I think Dungey will change that statistic. He should have stayed on the zook in my opinion though.
Same thing people said about Zook before RC got there.
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bama205 7/20/2011 6:21am
7/20/2011 6:21am
This will be the true test for KTM.
If dungey isn't as much of a threat come next year- we will all know the verdict on KTM. Maybe not; it may just suit/not suit him. We will have to wait and see. I sure like my EFI Honda though...
Shawn142
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Shawn142 7/20/2011 6:55am
7/20/2011 6:55am
bama205 wrote:
This will be the true test for KTM. If dungey isn't as much of a threat come next year- we will all know the verdict on...
This will be the true test for KTM.
If dungey isn't as much of a threat come next year- we will all know the verdict on KTM. Maybe not; it may just suit/not suit him. We will have to wait and see. I sure like my EFI Honda though...
Don't we already? The bike has won a world championship and is currently on pace to win another. At the MDON it beat everyone but Dungey pretty handily even at high elevation. The bike has not been successful in the US because it lacks the rider. In Europe KTM hired the best dude and not surprisingly he's still one of the best dudes.
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sxf138 7/20/2011 7:23am
7/20/2011 7:23am
sozo wrote:
what the frig is so wrong with a KTM 450?
Absolutely nothing, everyone just loves to hate because it is the cool thing to do.
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bama205 7/20/2011 7:27am
7/20/2011 7:27am
bama205 wrote:
This will be the true test for KTM. If dungey isn't as much of a threat come next year- we will all know the verdict on...
This will be the true test for KTM.
If dungey isn't as much of a threat come next year- we will all know the verdict on KTM. Maybe not; it may just suit/not suit him. We will have to wait and see. I sure like my EFI Honda though...
Shawn142 wrote:
Don't we already? The bike has won a world championship and is currently on pace to win another. At the MDON it beat everyone but Dungey...
Don't we already? The bike has won a world championship and is currently on pace to win another. At the MDON it beat everyone but Dungey pretty handily even at high elevation. The bike has not been successful in the US because it lacks the rider. In Europe KTM hired the best dude and not surprisingly he's still one of the best dudes.
The best dude and one of the best dudes is different

Post a reply to: Dungey and KTM are a done deal I guess