suggestions to prevent another heat stroke death.

mjskier
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7/6/2011 7:10pm
1. How about requiring Pro License holders and their mechanics to take a seminar on Heat Stroke at the opening round of the Nationals?

After seeing the crap CP took for stopping because of arm pump I can't wait to see the comments directed at a rider who stopped because he was too hot. Basically any system that involves the rider taking the decision on his own is doomed to failure. Nobody is going to want to be called a pussy. Plus by the time you get heat stroke your ability to think is probably greatly diminished.
wkdHH
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7/6/2011 7:57pm
Someone should contact a company like this that already makes cooling pads for helmets and see if they can be adapted for MX helmets: helmet cooling pad
SteveS
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7/6/2011 8:07pm Edited Date/Time 7/6/2011 8:07pm
KAWboy14 wrote:
6) allow I.V. between motos and before.
Wouldn't help the guy who has heat stroke in the first moto and is taken to the hospital and subsequently dies.
SteveS
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7/6/2011 8:15pm
And, as I facetiously suggested elsewhere, given the scenario that has been presented for the tragedy which happened at Redbud, if a requirement were to be made, requiring an electric starter on the 450's would be as reasonable a requirement as any, and would have apparently averted the tragedy.

As has also been mentioned by DC, the rider in question crashed three times previously in the moto. Could there have been a latent injury from one of those crashes which altered his physiology to the extent that he had the seizures and collapse? Could there have been a brain injury which led to his demise?

The Shop

7/6/2011 8:45pm
1. Misters will not work
There is a point when the body becomes so saturated with sweat the it is no longer able to cool itself down. This is made worse with humidity.

2. IV's are NOT the answer
Please read the following study. Drinking fluids rehydrates athletes better than IVs, say researchers
http://advance.uconn.edu/1998/980323/03239806.htm

3. Hydration packs are BAND AIDS to a bigger problem.

4. Gear and clothing.
I have had the unique opportunity to talk to individuals at a well known shoe company about moto gear and they laughed at how cheap and poorly designed moto gear is. everything from the rubber used on pants that adds weight to water absorbing materials. If you have to cut a jersey for increased ventilation that is a poorly designed jersey.
Cotton moto socks, cotton knee brace socks, cotton underwear all poor choices for materials used in humid environments.

Instead use mountain bike socks and thin cycling full length tights.

5. TRAINING
As someone who has been involved both on the medical and training side of moto for the better part of 15 years I have seen and heard about various approaches to preparing for hot humid environments.
On more than one occasion I have had athletes tell me that they would ride with sweatshirts or plastic trash bags under their jerseys so they can acclimate themselves to these environments.
THIS IS ABSOLUTELY STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!
When you put your body through this kind of stress during the week you can not possibly recover for the weekend. I don't care how much water you drink it is the stress on your system that needs time to recover.

6. Telemetry ( I had a company the works with the military come out to the Colorado race to demonstrate a system used to monitor soldiers on the battlefield) A certain TLD rider tested it out for me and had no complaints.

I have advocated for years the use of telemetry for the monitoring of athletes vital signs during a race. The technology is there and ready to be implemented. Heart Rate, Temperature, Respiration and Pulse
Here are the roadblocks I have encountered
1. cost- approx. 70K for equipment and manpower
2. resistance- from certain athletes who do not want others to know what their vitals are. we ran into this problem when we did our heart rate study.

7. Future medicine
Currently I am working on doing a case study based on current research in hyper hydration for competition in humid environments. I had an athlete testing this method at Red Bud and can report that he had no complaints.

I hope this helps. Heat injuries are serious but preventable.
Ashleymx
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7/6/2011 9:36pm
To follow on from my previous post. Anyone that's ridden in heat knows it's actually bearable until you stop. The heat really hits hard when the airflow stops and then adding kicking a bike over you really are walking a very fine line. All you can do is either physically prepair for that situation before hand (easier said than done) and/or be cooled as it happens. Your body is simply overheating. It can happen 10 minutes into a race or 25. Time is nearly irrelevant. Large quantity's of water doused over the upper body is the only way I can think of to draw that heat away considering the riding gear that covers a riders body. A slippery seat is a small price to pay and it would only last a few corners anyway, besides today's seats grip well when wet and riders can easily adjust to a wet seat if that was thought to be an issue. Id ask the riders about that one if it was a concern. Misting would have no effect btw unless you stopped in it for 5 - 10 minutes. Its too light and there's far too little skin exposed plus that skin is already soaked with sweat anyway.
Jim_Briggs
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7/7/2011 2:56am
JustMX wrote:
I remember last year after the drop off accident at Red Bud there was a thread with real solutions. Some of them have actually been implemented...
I remember last year after the drop off accident at Red Bud there was a thread with real solutions.

Some of them have actually been implemented.

So let's come up with a list of possible solutions.

We have already seen several posts about shorter races and that appears to be an unpopular idea.

So list your ideas here to discuss.

Here are few:

1. How about requiring Pro License holders and their mechanics to take a seminar on Heat Stroke at the opening round of the Nationals?

2. Recommend mechanics and riders coming up with some kind of signal the rider gives the mechanic every lap. If the rider fails to give the signal it could be taken as an indication that the rider is in distress? Pat yourself on the chest twice, a shake and a nod, a simple thumbs up, whichever. Just something to check that the rider is not in serious distress.

3. How about the AMA/MX Sports comes up with two way radio communications that have a 5 second delay built in so that can not be used to relay blocking info to the rider? Qualify for the race, you get radios, one for the rider, one for the mechanic. This would keep a team with a big budget from having an unfair advantage over the 40th place rider.

Radios would allow someone to monitor the rider and notify a race official that a rider is in distress so they could be black flagged to investigate. This would have several added advantages.

It would eliminate the out-of-date signal system we currently use, and it would allow an income stream by renting scanners and/or selling frequency lists to fans. Use that money to fund the radios with any extra going to a charity like the Asterick medical unit or the rider down fund.

4. Why hasn't anybody even mentioned hydration systems like a camel back?

5. How about a misting system? Because MX presents some specific problems It would need to be movable or set up over an area the riders don't have to ride through. How about on the landing side of the overhead structures?
I'm the one that wrote about shortening the moto's. I guess it was in haste. I like the ideas presented. The best solution is the education process. That takes follow-up to ensure the riders understand the symptoms that may cause them to go down. The overall education in general of the top pros is poor. People must remember that these kids have put racing above and beyond most people. They have been traveling since they were five years old with little effort in school. They all have the mind set that have they quit they are thought of as never getting the chance with a team they get paid. Believe me team owners are only concerned with how good they are that race. No roam for quitters! They'll just find someone else who doesn't. Educate the team owners and let them be sincere when they ask how they are. Show the kids its ok and that they understand.
Sunhouse
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7/7/2011 3:28am
This is the first time it has happened. I don`t think it will or should change anything except for the riders and teams preparation for hot races. There is no point bringing the starship Enterprise over to spray cosmic fluids on riders during a race if they don`t prepare well enough on their own. It`s THAT simple
DC
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7/7/2011 5:02am
SuperMario, the AMA officials and Dr. Bodnar or Dr. Reiman or Eddie Casillias constantly remind the riders about hydrating well at everyone riders meeting and in anticipation of other races coming up. It's part of what riders' meetings are for, and they take advantage of the gathering to give advice as often as possible. The other guys you mention are personal trainers, but I have seen them both and others let riders other than their own (as well as guys like me and Eric Johnson) to do some extra hydrating at the hot races.

DC
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DC
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7/7/2011 5:46am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2011 5:47am
I understand but they do mention it constantly, as in speaking at Hangtown about Texas coming up....

This was Josh Lichtle's first race in some time so i know he wasn't at the previous rounds to hear any of the warnings and advice from the on-site doctors and medics. We still need to learn more about what exactly happened. In the meantime, there will be more competition bulletins going out with these reminders included. We will be pro-active and give this added attention.

DC
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munsch121
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7/7/2011 6:23am
There is only one sure fire way to prevent this from happening again, That is educating the teams and riders and somehow making damn sure they take it seriously.
Other ideas;

1-pre-race physical to rule out any pre-existing conditions ? (with time contraints I know this is a tough one) Possibly if a rider has had issues in the past he MUST TAKE preventive measures or he DOES NOT ride....if you have had heat stroke before, you must do something to prevent it.
2-There was talk that for a few laps it was very obvious there was an issue with Josh, Dr issued "medical black flag" possibly ?
3-We have sunlight until nearly 9PM in the summer, just saying...........if its 90 plus, races start later
4-If it's 90 PLUS Teams/Track workers are allowed to assist riders outside the mechanics area on the track starting, water, or whatever they need....no working on the bikes ofcoarse, but someone else starting the bike for them, what is the harm in that ?

Losing someone Like we lost Josh Lichtle is a HUGE tragedy, but we all have to realize in him losing his life, it can save the lives of many others. The bigger tragedy would be to change NOTHING.
Law 131
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7/7/2011 6:23am
Others have said that this is the first death in AMA Pro Motocross.

We've already cut significant physical effort out. Dropping down to a 30 plus 2 from a 40 plus 2.

It seems to me that we don't have a problem that needs to be addressed by the sanctioning body. That said, it's good PR to issue warnings, listen to complaints and generally be a shoulder to cry on while people work through this tragedy. DC is a very wise and patient CEO.

I would suggest that anyone on this forum who is truly concerned about "heat stroke issue" should form, and finance, a group to address the situation. Be professional, well organized, informed, gracious and credible. You will find your group is welcomed with open arms.

Absent that, it's just more pointless bitching by people who haven't got a nickel in it.

The ball's in your court.
munsch121
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7/7/2011 7:04am Edited Date/Time 7/7/2011 7:12am
Law 131 wrote:
Others have said that this is the first death in AMA Pro Motocross. We've already cut significant physical effort out. Dropping down to a 30 plus...
Others have said that this is the first death in AMA Pro Motocross.

We've already cut significant physical effort out. Dropping down to a 30 plus 2 from a 40 plus 2.

It seems to me that we don't have a problem that needs to be addressed by the sanctioning body. That said, it's good PR to issue warnings, listen to complaints and generally be a shoulder to cry on while people work through this tragedy. DC is a very wise and patient CEO.

I would suggest that anyone on this forum who is truly concerned about "heat stroke issue" should form, and finance, a group to address the situation. Be professional, well organized, informed, gracious and credible. You will find your group is welcomed with open arms.

Absent that, it's just more pointless bitching by people who haven't got a nickel in it.

The ball's in your court.
100% correct I dont think this is a huge "issue", as I said the huge key to solving a problem like this is properly educating the riders and teams. I DO think that sanctioning body or promoter can make the biggest impact due to the fact they already have the means to make an immediate changes that can help prevent this from happening again

I DO THINK there are some small things that have been brought to all of our attention by losing Josh, those being he may have had some pre-existing illness, condition or been already dehydrated (given this happen in the FIRST moto). I also think outside assistance with bike starting in the heat can go a long long way.....not to mention how much of a difference can it actually make as far as being an "advantage" goes !? Not saying it could have helped prevent this tragedy, but it may help to prevent another......He went down the final time on the last lap, right in front of Ryan Villopoto on the FUEL broadcast, had he been able to get back to the pits and seen a Dr. we might not be having this discussion. Someone starting his bike or assisting him in one of those 3 falls might have made ALL the difference.
Law 131
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7/7/2011 7:35am
munsch121,

I respect your views.

I don't favor any action that looks to the sanctioning body to create, implement and enforce it.

Personal responsibility is where the solution (I believe a solution in search of a problem) resides, in my view.

I am generally opposed to increasing the size, authority and reach of the sanctioning body. Keep that body as small and agile as possible. Let that body narrowly focus on the job of putting on the race and not all these other issues that should be handled by the individual.
brocster
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7/7/2011 7:54am
there has to be a way to tie pertinent info into the transponders that are already reporting and being monitored as I feel being hydrated is the key it totally relies on the individual. If he is being monitored during the race there could be some thresholds set to black flag the said rider. IMHO! May Josh rest in peace and we all learn and live from this...
downandup
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7/7/2011 8:11am
Law 131 wrote:
munsch121, I respect your views. I don't favor any action that looks to the sanctioning body to create, implement and enforce it. Personal responsibility is where...
munsch121,

I respect your views.

I don't favor any action that looks to the sanctioning body to create, implement and enforce it.

Personal responsibility is where the solution (I believe a solution in search of a problem) resides, in my view.

I am generally opposed to increasing the size, authority and reach of the sanctioning body. Keep that body as small and agile as possible. Let that body narrowly focus on the job of putting on the race and not all these other issues that should be handled by the individual.
x100!

Plus, the riders need to water load!!! You've all heard of carb loading, well, they also need to hydarate well before race day.
72kiteboarder
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7/7/2011 9:13am
My two ideas;

Mandatory cooling device if the heat index is above _____.

Or

At the 15 minute mark in the Moto have a full course yellow flag for 2 full laps. It liets riders cool down and rest for 5-6 minutes and bunches up the feild for close racing.
wkdHH
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7/7/2011 12:20pm
Here's another suggestion - piss test the riders - one of the quickest, easiest ways to determine hydration is based on color of urine. The darker the urine, the more dehydrated someone is. Merely based on a color scale, it doesn't really require any special equipment & is something everyone could afford.
7/7/2011 12:42pm
Moto length should not be in question.. I can only pray they do take a long hard look and make sure this does not happen again.
nevadaside
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7/7/2011 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 7/7/2011 1:05pm
Uhhhhhhh............why weren't guys dropping like flies out at Saddleback in 100+ deg heat during 45+ min. motos back in the day??????????????

PRAY for the rider's safety EVERY week if you're that concerned for them.


LAW131 hit it...............it's called SELF RESPONSIBILITY people, end of discussion! Not only is this needed in society in general, but also in every task we undertake. Look at how pathetic things have turned out with the U.S. gov. trying to "fix" everything. Kickstarting your own bike a problem?.......REALLY!.........come'on man.............it's called being a "professional", & just being fast does NOT make you a "professional".

Every tragedy does NOT require some kind of action or "fix" (that's for the liberals). Tragedies are a part of life...............I know cause I'll live with one for the rest of my life, as will his family.
7/7/2011 4:06pm
My two ideas; Mandatory cooling device if the heat index is above _____. Or At the 15 minute mark in the Moto have a full course...
My two ideas;

Mandatory cooling device if the heat index is above _____.

Or

At the 15 minute mark in the Moto have a full course yellow flag for 2 full laps. It liets riders cool down and rest for 5-6 minutes and bunches up the feild for close racing.
This is not NASCAR. That manufactured excitement has given real motorsports a bad name world wide IMO. Everyone is looking for a "gimmick" now to add excitement.
TY6
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7/7/2011 9:31pm
I think the AMA should install watering points at each of the marshal locations, so if a rider does come off and there bike wont start or they are dehydrated; it provides them with the opportunity to rehydrate and cool off.
mjskier
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7/7/2011 10:11pm
Here's an easy one: Don't wear black or dark outfits or helmets. They attract heat.
agency399
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7/8/2011 7:25am
nevadaside wrote:
Uhhhhhhh............why weren't guys dropping like flies out at Saddleback in 100+ deg heat during [b][u]45+ min. motos[/u][/b] back in the day?????????????? [b]PRAY for the rider's safety...
Uhhhhhhh............why weren't guys dropping like flies out at Saddleback in 100+ deg heat during 45+ min. motos back in the day??????????????

PRAY for the rider's safety EVERY week if you're that concerned for them.


LAW131 hit it...............it's called SELF RESPONSIBILITY people, end of discussion! Not only is this needed in society in general, but also in every task we undertake. Look at how pathetic things have turned out with the U.S. gov. trying to "fix" everything. Kickstarting your own bike a problem?.......REALLY!.........come'on man.............it's called being a "professional", & just being fast does NOT make you a "professional".

Every tragedy does NOT require some kind of action or "fix" (that's for the liberals). Tragedies are a part of life...............I know cause I'll live with one for the rest of my life, as will his family.
From a guy who makes a living off "risk management” AMEN.

As awesome as it is that everyone never wants to see this to happen again, (and really what kind of person would) most of these ideas are extremely unrealistic.

We cannot try to make motocross bullet proof safe, sure we can do a few things here and there to not make it as dangerous, but to try and make it fool proof safe is unrealistic

RIP Josh, a true motocross warrior
Frodad78
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7/17/2013 7:27am
Wow blast from the past with this thread
newmann
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7/17/2013 8:22am
About that "telemetry".....

http://www.polar.com/us-en/b2b_products/team_sports/polar_team2_pro

Covers up to 80 participants.....hmmmmm, how many riders are in two national classes? Parameters could be set for each individual? Alert goes off when they exceed those parameters? Team or mechanic could easily be notified of potential problem?

I've seen in years past on the Tour deFrance where all the info scrolls across the bottom of the tv screen. You think the Tour paid Polar to run this info on the television with the Polar logo? My guess is Polar would possibly pay MX Sports to put this equipment out on the track in exchange for a occasional flash across the screen.

Is this sport really so damn secretive that Ryan Villopoto (or Aldon Baker) does not want his heart rate and other vitals on national TV? The way I see it is that maybe it would wake the f%#k up all of the naysayers who continue to think that the bike does all of the work. Maybe it would wake some potential sponsors up to the fact that these are real athletes out there. Maybe some more money would roll in from outside sponsors.
Radical
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7/17/2013 10:53am
I think these are all good ideas.

Motos earlier or later in the day. Duh!! Why start racing at 1pm when temperatures are at their peak ?

Camelbak's This is a great idea. Just be careful not to drink too much during a moto. Believe it or not, marathoners can die from drinking too much water during an event. (It's difficult, but it happens). The rule is that you shouldn't gain weight during the competition.

Move MX to Winter/Spring and SX to Summer. Great idea!

Air conditioned cooling areas made available to all riders, with ice cold water, and even an above the ground swimming pool for cooling off.. This should help the privateers who don't have access to motor homes with A/C.

A misting area on the track might be cool, but probably unnecessary if the other solutions are put in place.

I'm against IV's before or between motos. It makes things unfair for the privateers, and doesn't solve the problem for amateur racing. Plus it would be as unfair as steroids. Every rider would have to do it in order to be competitive and it would soon make it's way into amateur races. I do agree though that it MIGHT save lives.
I'm all for IV's when needed after the second moto.

Proper hydration before the motos would help too. Free Gatorade?

That's my 2 cents.

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