Countershaft Seal Question

Louie112
Posts
182
Joined
2/13/2015
Location
Austin, TX, USA

Hi Everyone,

Probably a stupid question but can you ride without a counter shaft seal? I know it’s not ideal but is it possible without issue or would I have a heavy oil leak or something else? Have a race on Saturday but can’t get the part in time.

Bike is an 02 YZ125. 
 

thanks!

 

|
5/16/2024 12:11pm

no you cannot. You will lose oil immediately 

1
Nairb#70
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4087
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Location
Ivoryton, CT, USA
5/16/2024 2:12pm Edited Date/Time 5/16/2024 2:14pm

On a 2 strk. you will lose transmission fluid, will damage gears, bearings and most likely clutch plates. On a 4 strk., you will lose motor oil and damage all of the above including main brgs., rod brgs. in addition to valve and camshaft components. You should have known!

1
5/16/2024 6:22pm

You are correct, it is a stupid question!

A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no crankcase compression, it's unlikely the bike will even start, if it does start, there will be a significant amount of smoke out the exhaust, the spark plug will foul, and gearbox oil will be blown out the gearbox breather.

Have you rung all the dealers in your area?

7
Layton
Posts
350
Joined
8/16/2018
Location
Geneseo, IL, USA
5/17/2024 4:45am
You are correct, it is a stupid question! A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no...

You are correct, it is a stupid question!

A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no crankcase compression, it's unlikely the bike will even start, if it does start, there will be a significant amount of smoke out the exhaust, the spark plug will foul, and gearbox oil will be blown out the gearbox breather.

Have you rung all the dealers in your area?

Actually you are wrong. The countershaft seal has nothing to do with crankcase pressure. 
 

The engine will still run fine. The transmission however will be loosing oil quickly. Plus if it was ridden dirt would quickly damage the output shaft bearing and possibly others. 

5

The Shop

38special
Posts
672
Joined
6/30/2010
Location
USA
5/17/2024 5:20am
You are correct, it is a stupid question! A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no...

You are correct, it is a stupid question!

A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no crankcase compression, it's unlikely the bike will even start, if it does start, there will be a significant amount of smoke out the exhaust, the spark plug will foul, and gearbox oil will be blown out the gearbox breather.

Have you rung all the dealers in your area?

Wow, very wrong info. You should brush up on your 2 stroke engine technology, especially given your user name.

2
5/17/2024 6:06am Edited Date/Time 5/17/2024 6:06am
You are correct, it is a stupid question! A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no...

You are correct, it is a stupid question!

A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no crankcase compression, it's unlikely the bike will even start, if it does start, there will be a significant amount of smoke out the exhaust, the spark plug will foul, and gearbox oil will be blown out the gearbox breather.

Have you rung all the dealers in your area?

Layton wrote:
Actually you are wrong. The countershaft seal has nothing to do with crankcase pressure.    The engine will still run fine. The transmission however will be...

Actually you are wrong. The countershaft seal has nothing to do with crankcase pressure. 
 

The engine will still run fine. The transmission however will be loosing oil quickly. Plus if it was ridden dirt would quickly damage the output shaft bearing and possibly others. 

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them...

image-20240517223522-1

image-20240517230344-2

Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression ratio.

If you remove the countershaft seal, the total crankcase volume increases, because it then includes the clutch cavity and transmission cavity, reducing the crankcase compression ratio and crankcase pressure.

4
RGaede
Posts
209
Joined
1/10/2014
Location
Albuquerque, NM, USA
5/17/2024 6:39am
@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them... Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression...

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them...

image-20240517223522-1

image-20240517230344-2

Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression ratio.

If you remove the countershaft seal, the total crankcase volume increases, because it then includes the clutch cavity and transmission cavity, reducing the crankcase compression ratio and crankcase pressure.

The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the transmission (they are even vented to atmosphere by a hose).   

Back on topic, dont run the bike without a countershaft seal.  The transmission bearings will be shot best case,  worst case you'll need a new transmission because the gears will "weld" themselves to the shafts without lubrication.

1
5/17/2024 6:57am
@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them... Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression...

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them...

image-20240517223522-1

image-20240517230344-2

Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression ratio.

If you remove the countershaft seal, the total crankcase volume increases, because it then includes the clutch cavity and transmission cavity, reducing the crankcase compression ratio and crankcase pressure.

RGaede wrote:
The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the...

The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the transmission (they are even vented to atmosphere by a hose).   

Back on topic, dont run the bike without a countershaft seal.  The transmission bearings will be shot best case,  worst case you'll need a new transmission because the gears will "weld" themselves to the shafts without lubrication.

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then connected.

2
Nairb#70
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4087
Joined
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Location
Ivoryton, CT, USA
5/17/2024 7:31am Edited Date/Time 5/17/2024 7:33am
You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then...

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then connected.

You need to take a lesson in BASIC 2 strk. engine principles and design. You've got it ass backwards. Change the word countershaft to crankshaft and you'll be close. Sort of.

1
RGaede
Posts
209
Joined
1/10/2014
Location
Albuquerque, NM, USA
5/17/2024 7:37am
You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then...

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then connected.

The countershaft seal is between the countershaft sprocket and the transmission bearings, nowhere near the crank. 

1
seth505
Posts
10212
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4/1/2008
Location
SD, CA, USA
5/17/2024 7:46am
@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them... Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression...

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them...

image-20240517223522-1

image-20240517230344-2

Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression ratio.

If you remove the countershaft seal, the total crankcase volume increases, because it then includes the clutch cavity and transmission cavity, reducing the crankcase compression ratio and crankcase pressure.

RGaede wrote:
The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the...

The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the transmission (they are even vented to atmosphere by a hose).   

Back on topic, dont run the bike without a countershaft seal.  The transmission bearings will be shot best case,  worst case you'll need a new transmission because the gears will "weld" themselves to the shafts without lubrication.

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then...

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then connected.

LOL, this thread has gotten funny. Not sure how you haven't grasped what people have written.  The countershaft seal is behind the front (countershaft) sprocket. It seals the inside of the countershaft from the outside elements. This shaft is part of the transmission, a separate cavity from the crank. It has zero to do with crankcase volume and luckily also has nothing to do with fuel and premix oil.

1
Nairb#70
Posts
4087
Joined
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Location
Ivoryton, CT, USA
5/17/2024 7:53am
RGaede wrote:
The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the...

The other guys are right.  On two strokes the crankcase is seperated from the clutch and transmission by the crank seals, no crankcase pressure in the transmission (they are even vented to atmosphere by a hose).   

Back on topic, dont run the bike without a countershaft seal.  The transmission bearings will be shot best case,  worst case you'll need a new transmission because the gears will "weld" themselves to the shafts without lubrication.

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then...

You didn't read my post, the OP was talking about running the bike with no countershaft seal, the crankcase, clutch cavity and transmission cavity are then connected.

seth505 wrote:
LOL, this thread has gotten funny. Not sure how you haven't grasped what people have written.  The countershaft seal is behind the front (countershaft) sprocket. It...

LOL, this thread has gotten funny. Not sure how you haven't grasped what people have written.  The countershaft seal is behind the front (countershaft) sprocket. It seals the inside of the countershaft from the outside elements. This shaft is part of the transmission, a separate cavity from the crank. It has zero to do with crankcase volume and luckily also has nothing to do with fuel and premix oil.

Mind boggling!

1
38special
Posts
672
Joined
6/30/2010
Location
USA
5/17/2024 5:44pm
You are correct, it is a stupid question! A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no...

You are correct, it is a stupid question!

A YZ125 cannot run without a counter shaft seal, if you remove the seal, there will be no crankcase compression, it's unlikely the bike will even start, if it does start, there will be a significant amount of smoke out the exhaust, the spark plug will foul, and gearbox oil will be blown out the gearbox breather.

Have you rung all the dealers in your area?

Layton wrote:
Actually you are wrong. The countershaft seal has nothing to do with crankcase pressure.    The engine will still run fine. The transmission however will be...

Actually you are wrong. The countershaft seal has nothing to do with crankcase pressure. 
 

The engine will still run fine. The transmission however will be loosing oil quickly. Plus if it was ridden dirt would quickly damage the output shaft bearing and possibly others. 

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them... Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression...

@Layton, @38special I'll screen grab your comments before you edit them...

image-20240517223522-1

image-20240517230344-2

Engine tuners commonly use engine stuffers to decrease crankcase volume, increasing the crankcase compression ratio.

If you remove the countershaft seal, the total crankcase volume increases, because it then includes the clutch cavity and transmission cavity, reducing the crankcase compression ratio and crankcase pressure.

LMAO.  Wow, he doubled down.  Laughing  Unbelievable.

2
Layton
Posts
350
Joined
8/16/2018
Location
Geneseo, IL, USA
5/17/2024 5:50pm
38special wrote:
LMAO.  Wow, he doubled down.    Unbelievable.

LMAO.  Wow, he doubled down.  Laughing  Unbelievable.

You beat me to it 😊

I was going to grab a screenshot of his post. 

2
FGR01
Posts
6139
Joined
10/1/2006
Location
USA
Fantasy
5/18/2024 8:36am

We'll chalk all that up to Friday night posting possibly including a few drinks?  hahaa

Back to the OP......  did you already remove the old leaky seal???  Because you can just let the leaky one in and ride like that until the new parts come.   You've probably been riding it how long like that anyway?   A seal with a leak is better than no seal at all, for sure.   Just keep an eye on the trans oil level and maybe keep adding a little to keep it at the right level as it leaks a little.

5/18/2024 4:34pm

If you have the old seal take it to a local bearing supply house and they can get you something that works. 

1
Louie112
Posts
182
Joined
2/13/2015
Location
Austin, TX, USA
5/20/2024 11:57am

Thanks for all the education guys! Except that one dude…😂 I figured it wasn’t possible to ride without it but thought I would ask.

I was actually told the countershaft seal was a little torn from the guy that put the motor back together but I pulled it out myself and looked at it and everything looked good. Filled it with oil and checked for leaks then started it and checked again. No leaks after riding either so I think it’s good to go but I have a fresh one coming just for insurance!

 

2

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