I was thinking about this last night the kx65 was outdated back when I was racing and it still hasnt changed. Yamaha just came out with a brand new 65 in 2018, theres clearly value in having a bike at each step of the way to build brand loyalty by the time kids make it to the big bikes.
Kawi is the one brand that doesnt even need to start from scratch like yamaha did, they already have a platform, why are they letting it become completely obsolete? I’m sure theyve gotten their return on investment back 10 fold from designing that bike, how hard would it be to take the current base platform and throw some inverted forks, new plastics, and maybe a power valve on that thing? It would probably still be a bit behind but at least it wouldnt be a complete afterthought like the current 65. Once it at least has those 3 things modern styling, inverted forks, and a power valve they could get another 10 years out of it.
I've often thought about the Kawa 65 and 85. Kawasaki have slipped far behind KTM. They got the money so why not make a new model.
I'm stumped as much as you are.
It's odd, the Japanese have completely given up on making competitive off road bikes, two strokes and minis. I don't see that changing for a while. Maybe if minis go four stroke they'll get back in the game. For now long live Cobra and the Austrians.
That is something that I cannot understand. They have slipped badly in motogp. Suzuki pulled out. Kawa is a no show, Yamaha and Honda are sucking...outdated compared to Ducati and KTM.
KTM/Husky and GasGas are exploiting the situation and Triumph has jumped in, now Beta and soon will Ducati.
The Japs are lucky to have Jett on a Honda.
I think they are happy to let ktm control that market. Once the riders outgrow the minis they can’t all stay on ktm and cobra doesn’t offer a full size bike. Free conversion for the Japanese brands.
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KTM offers the widest range of full sized bikes.
Where do you think kids go after a 65?
Edit - my bad, I miss read your reply. Yeah, they all can't stay on KTM but it's a no brainer for folk paying to race to go with a KTM as its current.
Obviously the Jap brands like Kawa etc have pretty good contingency available.
Still, it would be nice to have a current dated KX, CR and RM 65.
Something ain't right the way the Japs operate. Maybe they all working on electric???
The only thing going for the kx65 is lower price, and plenty of parts out there. I think it's still a good fit in the 65 market because of the low price. The old 110 used to use the same plastic, maybe upgrade it to newer klx bodywork. It's really the best beginner 65 at 12 horsepower vs about 18 on the others.
I see and agree with the point of the op, but there's more to consider.
Kawi will put out an electric replacement for the 65 before they ever update it.
$650 difference in MSRP between the KX65 and YZ65. Why anyone would consider a brand new KX over the YZ is beyond me though.
Geezuz, I'm outta touch with these small bikes. 12 vs 18 hp difference?
The kx is physically smaller which could be a selling point to parents who don't know as much as we do. We bought 2 used $500 kx65s pre scamdemic. Once the kid got more serious we bought a new 21 YZ65. I wouldn't buy a new kx, but there's plenty of used deals on them since little has been updated since 2000.
Moto GP is clearing the chess table for next season with new rules. Smaller engines, less aerodynamics, and no starting devices. Can't imagine how the teams feel
I think it really is the fact that the Japanese companies are too large. I’m just speculating here based on the corporations that I have worked for. They focus on their core values, products and heritage.. as long as it makes money. Management looks into the different divisions then split them into smaller segments or divisions and decide where to invest. I would bet most of their R&D money is going towards side by sides and the larger volume products. The Japanese companies produce all sorts of things from cars, jets, boats, boat motors, various power equipment, even pianos. I would say they see the mini cycles as a “just let it ride and what we get with minimal effort is good enough”.
I feel like KTM is heading towards the fate of the Japanese manufactures but for now the non Japanese brands still mostly focus on two wheeled power sports.
That’s why I said brand new. Used KX65’s for $1500 and less makes a lot of sense. Brand new just doesn’t.
When I bought my sons 65 two years ago I looked for used KX’s. Problem was 01-05’s were still up for $3k and people wouldn’t budge. So I bought him a 21 YZ65 and I’m sure you know, that YZ is incredible!
Ours was almost bulletproof for over 100 hours. Completely rebuilt it last fall, and it is sitting waiting for the next kid to be big enough to ride it. No complaints!
I have two small complaints. Well, more annoyances than anything. I hate the way the seat bolts to the rear fender. Ruined a new rear fender and fender graphics the first time because the stupid but in the new fender wasn’t set in there properly. My second one is the drain bolt with the rear brake pedal in the way. Not Yamahas best design, but far from the worst, haha!
I forgot about the oil drain bolt, yeah that design sucks. I personally was careful with the seat bolt, but my kid had difficulty with it. Luckily we didn't strip any seat bolts, so that's a plus.
I rebuilt a 2000 yz 80 for a friends kid, then immediately did our YZ65. It's pretty much the same exact bottom end on both, so the durability is there. If it was lighter like the KTM it would be nice, but we chose the more durable bike for a better price.
Out of the Japanese big four, Honda is the only one to start with motorcycles. Yamaha is musical instruments, Kawasaki made ships and trains, and Suzuki silk looms and textiles.
I remember back in 2000 when the all new KX65 & KX85 models were first released, what a drastic difference. I was 12 and had a 99 KX80 then upgraded to the new 85. That was a game changer holy shit. I never rode it fully stock, mine had the whole PC engine/suspension done but still compared to my 99 it was night & day difference. Sad to see them drop the ball on that line of bikes over recent years considering Kawi was a mini powerhouse for so long.
I'm a District Manager for Kawasaki and can tell you there is a lot of truth in this statement.
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Nothing has really changed in the Japanese mentality regarding bikes.
The thing that have changed is that KTM came along and started releasing new models every 3-4th year.
Look at when the KX60 came in 1983 and was unchanged until 2000 when the kx65 came.
The KX80/85 has it’s origin in the 80’s/early 90’s if you look at the engine cases and frame, same with the Suzuki from like 86?.
Yamaha yz80 from 1993 is more or less the same base-engine today even if it had some updates you can still trace parts back to 93.
The Honda cr80 got a update in 96 that then was more or less the same until 07. Yes, it got 5cc’s more one year and a new tank with dual shrouds but thats it.
So i would say that Japan are doing that they always have done. The KX65 SHOULD be on the timeline for a update now since 24 years have passed, but when it gets one, it will probably take 30 years more until the next.
The Honda crf150 has been unchanged since -07 and i would be surprised if we saw a real update on the yz65 within 10years.
Weege has talked about this before, the Japanese have a price point for these bikes they stick to , they don't believe they can sell the numbers they need to at the price KTM does,
Thats not next season. Those changes are for 2027
The Japanese companies see the declining interest and sales of dirt bikes plus they dug themselves into a hole on climate change by demonizing 2 strokes. These corporations are big ships and its VERY hard to get the ship to change direction. At one point from the mid-70's until the late 80's they had no problem rolling out a clean sheet design every year...because the sales numbers (and the economy) supported it. That's no longer the case. We should all be glad that the European companies are coming back into the sport or innovation would be at a complete standstill.
You must not follow racing! so I'll fill you in of recent events.
yesterday Honda just clinched the premiere 2024 450cc supercross championship and the runner up position was a Yamaha. both Japanese bikes. Yamaha also won the 2023 450cc supercross championship.
In the 250 class Yamaha, honda, kawasaki have dominated this class for more years than I can count. Japanese bikes as well.
so if you like I can go further.
Now on the other hand just because the kx 65 needs an update doesn't mean your statement holds complete truth.
Not sure what region you are in but declining interest is just false.
In comparison to the 70's & 80's there is absolutely NO comparison in interest. It doesn't matter what region you are in. There are fewer places to ride and fewer races to attend. Honda sold almost 20,000 1974 CR125's and at least that many XR75's in 1973. Yamaha was equally successful with the JT-1, GT80, and the first 5 years of the YZ80. Even Maico sold over 5,000 490's just in 1981. The motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of those numbers today. And the Japanese have reduced development and production to match sales because of it.
You lost me at Yamaha winning the 2023 450 sx title. Snopes just dropped an article about your post calling it misinformation.
I see the numbers that are reported by every OEM, and dirt bike sales are definitely declining all across the US.
What does any of that have to do with what I said? I pointed out off road and minis, obviously the Japanese still are very strong in MX/SX.
1984, 85 and 86 were boom years for the CR125, with close to 30,000 sold globally each year
In 1985 10,507 CR125s were sold in Australia, in 2020 514 CRF250s were sold in Australia, that's a 95% drop in Honda's market size.
You are right, the motorcycle industry is a mere shadow of it's self.
10 million more people in Australia in 2020 then in 1985. Makes those 2020 numbers look even lower.
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