Acceptance Speech...

TeamGreen
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7/21/2024 11:10am
whyZ wrote:

Not sure, why is it the same brand you use? 

jjavaman wrote:

I’m not in the cult

ToolMaker wrote:

🤣🤣🤣

The dude is soooooooo lost 🤣

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Magoofan
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7/21/2024 12:11pm
avidchimp wrote:
I agree with you on this. I can't wait to see Trump make good on all of those promises. I mean he said inflation will go...

I agree with you on this. I can't wait to see Trump make good on all of those promises. I mean he said inflation will go back to historic lows, he is going to give us plebeians a yuugge tax break (as opposed to his last one he gave us that raised taxes on the middle class), lock down the southern border, and bring housing and consumer goods costs down to where they were pre-pandemic as soon as he is in office.

Sounds utopian actually, hope he can pull it off which is why I am voting for him. 

 

ToolMaker wrote:
You sir, are the only one I know with an income under 300k/yr that has said paid higher taxes. My thinks you're an anomoly. Maybe your...

You sir, are the only one I know with an income under 300k/yr that has said paid higher taxes. My thinks you're an anomoly. Maybe your income is much higher?

RACERX69 wrote:

Agree, Toolmaker. Not sure what Chimp is talking about. I netted an extra $450 a month back into my pocket, thanks to DJT!

Speaking from a current point of view:    I don't know what anyones financial situation is.....but everyone should check their withholding.     The false "bump" in paychecks this year means my wife and I would owe taxes at the end of the year.   We had to bump up our withholding by adding an extra amount taken out ON TOP of the taxes. 

YMMV

 

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byke
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7/21/2024 12:16pm
byke wrote:
DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets...

DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets all messed up. DEI does things like convert names to numbers to remove subconscious bias, and it standardizes interview questions to prevent people from bro'ing down on dirt bikes in interviews, because none of those things are merit-based. DEI pushes people to focus on merit without being subconsciously influenced by bias'. Now, once the hippies got their hands on it, it turned into something else and whatever that is, is of a bunch of nonsense. But, blaming DEI itself is like blaming guns for shootings. It's just a tool and there's nothing wrong with it, until an idiot gets their hands on it. 

ToolMaker wrote:

The most dishonest (and wrong) attempt at explaining DEI ever

TM

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

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The Shop

ToolMaker
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7/21/2024 12:39pm
avidchimp wrote:
I agree with you on this. I can't wait to see Trump make good on all of those promises. I mean he said inflation will go...

I agree with you on this. I can't wait to see Trump make good on all of those promises. I mean he said inflation will go back to historic lows, he is going to give us plebeians a yuugge tax break (as opposed to his last one he gave us that raised taxes on the middle class), lock down the southern border, and bring housing and consumer goods costs down to where they were pre-pandemic as soon as he is in office.

Sounds utopian actually, hope he can pull it off which is why I am voting for him. 

 

ToolMaker wrote:
You sir, are the only one I know with an income under 300k/yr that has said paid higher taxes. My thinks you're an anomoly. Maybe your...

You sir, are the only one I know with an income under 300k/yr that has said paid higher taxes. My thinks you're an anomoly. Maybe your income is much higher?

avidchimp wrote:
My tax guy did everything possible, but since I am a w2 employee my write off's are not what they could be if operating as an...

My tax guy did everything possible, but since I am a w2 employee my write off's are not what they could be if operating as an S-corp, but it is frowned upon for us below the line employee's.

I won't say what I make, but let's just say a lot of families would love to gross income what I pay in taxes a year. But hey, thank god all those fence jumpers are getting free healthcare, phones, and housing, so why not keep fucking hard working Americans out of their money to support corporations flooding the market with cheap labor by way of government malfeasance at the border.

So your beef is really with CA's AB5. You are NOT comparing preTrump W2 to Trump W2 tax rates. Not at all fair to compare. But at least I understand now.

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TeamGreen
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7/21/2024 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2024 3:31pm
byke wrote:
DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets...

DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets all messed up. DEI does things like convert names to numbers to remove subconscious bias, and it standardizes interview questions to prevent people from bro'ing down on dirt bikes in interviews, because none of those things are merit-based. DEI pushes people to focus on merit without being subconsciously influenced by bias'. Now, once the hippies got their hands on it, it turned into something else and whatever that is, is of a bunch of nonsense. But, blaming DEI itself is like blaming guns for shootings. It's just a tool and there's nothing wrong with it, until an idiot gets their hands on it. 

ToolMaker wrote:

The most dishonest (and wrong) attempt at explaining DEI ever

TM

byke wrote:
This is what DEI actually is:https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdfWhile not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the...

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

In the summer of 2021…I was asked to “look in on” a program for friend that I had previously worked with when he was an AF 1 star (2018) and had since become a program director at an aero company on a program that was new to him…but, I’d been a part of in it’s development…in its infancy. 

I had to go to L.A. AFB in El Segundo/LAX to get a program badge before proceeding to the program facility miles away. 

So…I go to to applicable security office. I’m shown to a major’s office. She introduces herself and proceeds to ask me…how I “identify”…? “Are you fuckimg kidding me? What’s it say on that envelope?” She’s got an envelope in-hand and her mouth is agape…the envelope said,”Mr. Manny…”…and she just did not get it. So, I laid in to it…

“Major, who signed off on my badge? Major, why am I here? I need answers, major.” She stood there…shocked. I held up my hand up as in signaling “stop” and said,”Let’s make a call.” I called the guy who’d asked for my help…”I think I’ve found the problem!”…he was inflight on his way to join me…he had me hand my phone to the major…he lit her up…remember…he’s a -retired- general…but, as a civilian…this was HIS program that he ran…like a general…and he laid into her like a fuckimg drill instructor. I actually felt bad for her. 

That day has been recalled at quite a few meetings since. It was the beginning of seeing the real problem. The video of it has been played at a few gatherings along with a splice in of Viper’s “Well, that’ll just about cover the fly bys…” from Top Gun. This program director has a sense of humor and he’s a flier…

On that day I went out to a facility that had more HR types and more DEI-ish program pushers than I could believe. From Pentagon political types to a ridiculous amount of “administrators” with a whacky agenda…it was a clusterfuck. Pure & Simple.

I went and got some “previously retired & unencumbered politically” technical and administrative help and some really good data forensics types…and the house cleaning began. 

That program is kicking ass today. 

2
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ToolMaker
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7/21/2024 3:33pm
byke wrote:
DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets...

DEI is like conservatism or liberalism, they're ideologies and principles that are totally sound. It's only when people try to do it, is when it gets all messed up. DEI does things like convert names to numbers to remove subconscious bias, and it standardizes interview questions to prevent people from bro'ing down on dirt bikes in interviews, because none of those things are merit-based. DEI pushes people to focus on merit without being subconsciously influenced by bias'. Now, once the hippies got their hands on it, it turned into something else and whatever that is, is of a bunch of nonsense. But, blaming DEI itself is like blaming guns for shootings. It's just a tool and there's nothing wrong with it, until an idiot gets their hands on it. 

ToolMaker wrote:

The most dishonest (and wrong) attempt at explaining DEI ever

TM

byke wrote:
This is what DEI actually is:https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdfWhile not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the...

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

The "E" is claimed to stand for equity.

You're actually integrating bias to create "equity", so go away

 

1
byke
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7/21/2024 6:29pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2024 6:39pm
ToolMaker wrote:

The most dishonest (and wrong) attempt at explaining DEI ever

TM

byke wrote:
This is what DEI actually is:https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdfWhile not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the...

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

TeamGreen wrote:
In the summer of 2021…I was asked to “look in on” a program for friend that I had previously worked with when he was an AF...

In the summer of 2021…I was asked to “look in on” a program for friend that I had previously worked with when he was an AF 1 star (2018) and had since become a program director at an aero company on a program that was new to him…but, I’d been a part of in it’s development…in its infancy. 

I had to go to L.A. AFB in El Segundo/LAX to get a program badge before proceeding to the program facility miles away. 

So…I go to to applicable security office. I’m shown to a major’s office. She introduces herself and proceeds to ask me…how I “identify”…? “Are you fuckimg kidding me? What’s it say on that envelope?” She’s got an envelope in-hand and her mouth is agape…the envelope said,”Mr. Manny…”…and she just did not get it. So, I laid in to it…

“Major, who signed off on my badge? Major, why am I here? I need answers, major.” She stood there…shocked. I held up my hand up as in signaling “stop” and said,”Let’s make a call.” I called the guy who’d asked for my help…”I think I’ve found the problem!”…he was inflight on his way to join me…he had me hand my phone to the major…he lit her up…remember…he’s a -retired- general…but, as a civilian…this was HIS program that he ran…like a general…and he laid into her like a fuckimg drill instructor. I actually felt bad for her. 

That day has been recalled at quite a few meetings since. It was the beginning of seeing the real problem. The video of it has been played at a few gatherings along with a splice in of Viper’s “Well, that’ll just about cover the fly bys…” from Top Gun. This program director has a sense of humor and he’s a flier…

On that day I went out to a facility that had more HR types and more DEI-ish program pushers than I could believe. From Pentagon political types to a ridiculous amount of “administrators” with a whacky agenda…it was a clusterfuck. Pure & Simple.

I went and got some “previously retired & unencumbered politically” technical and administrative help and some really good data forensics types…and the house cleaning began. 

That program is kicking ass today. 

Fantastic anecdote and highlights doing it wrong, because that's an annoying and invasive question right out of the gate. DEI is a process, not a bunch of catchphrases that people are supposed to slap you in the face with. Whomever thought that's what she was supposed to be doing, is mistaken. She was using it as a hammer, but DEI is more like a 1mm torx. 

This is roughly what DEI is supposed to measure:

• Employee retention 

• Employee satisfaction 

• Productivity Increases 

• Creativity Increases 

• External customer feedback 

• Awards and/or public recognition

In your case, the in-your-face aspect would have violated the second and, if continued, likely would have impacted the others. That's not fair to you and that's not what it's supposed to do. Think of it like someone going around asking everyone they see, every time they see them, "Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior? Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior??". Their church would tell them, your heart's in the right place, but you're doing it wrong. And when those questions irritated someone, what would they think? They'd blame religion, incorrectly, and their complaint is actually with a person being annoying. It wouldn't matter if they were asking about grilled cheese sandwiches, it'd be annoying regardless of what the actual question were. 

byke
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Location
Auburn, CA, USA
7/21/2024 6:38pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2024 6:43pm
ToolMaker wrote:

The most dishonest (and wrong) attempt at explaining DEI ever

TM

byke wrote:
This is what DEI actually is:https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdfWhile not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the...

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

ToolMaker wrote:

The "E" is claimed to stand for equity.

You're actually integrating bias to create "equity", so go away

 

The equity is about recognizing that different people may have different needs and that you shouldn't be lazy and try to fix everything with blanket equal approaches. For example, if you wanted to provide a nursing area for your employees, you'd give Cindy with her nursing-age child a breast pump, and then you'd give Todd the day off on Easter Sunday because he celebrates it with his family. What you don't do, is apply these things equally, giving Todd a breast pump and forcing Cindy to take the day off when she needs those hours. The measured result of employee satisfaction is where you're supposed to see equality, but how you get there can be done equitably. And it doesn't have to be, because there's no anti-equality formula in DEI, so maybe there's a time where a blanket equal approach to something makes sense, so then you do that. None of it comes with an asterisk of having to abandon logic. People do that part on their own. 

ToolMaker
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7/21/2024 7:10pm
byke wrote:
This is what DEI actually is:https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdfWhile not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the...

This is what DEI actually is:

https://www.employerscouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/EC-Guide-to-DEI.pdf

While not perfect, it's about stripping away these little subconscious bias' so that all we're left with is the merit of the individual, and then hiring people based on that. DEI is the antithesis to something like Affirmative Action, because Affirmative Action is designed to create a result, whereas DEI is simply a process that aims to remove bias and then allow the results to be whatever they are. DEI does not measure ethnicity, gender, etc. which mirrors society and then try to force businesses and colleges to reflect society. DEi is designed to catch talent and it should create workplaces that are just as considerate to white hetero male Christians, as it is to black lesbians in wheelchairs. If that's not happening, then from what DEI actually does measure, it will reveal that someone's doing something wrong.   

Should you bother to read it, I think you'll find that DEI out in the world, in colleges, diversity statements, that's all a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with DEI. I suspect that if you do read it, you'll wonder how everything got so screwed up. And the reason is simple, because DEI doesn't do what they want. It doesn't make them happy, so they just make up a bunch of stuff and then pretend it's DEI, because DEI was a hip/cool catchword for liberal employers and schools to pretend to be something they're not. It goes back to what borg was talking about, they just wanted the appearance. Even worse, they've given some really good ideas, a bad name, so in the pursuit of merit, schools and businesses abandoned merit, and then people blaming DEI for it, are abandoning merit yet again. 

ToolMaker wrote:

The "E" is claimed to stand for equity.

You're actually integrating bias to create "equity", so go away

 

byke wrote:
The equity is about recognizing that different people may have different needs and that you shouldn't be lazy and try to fix everything with blanket equal...

The equity is about recognizing that different people may have different needs and that you shouldn't be lazy and try to fix everything with blanket equal approaches. For example, if you wanted to provide a nursing area for your employees, you'd give Cindy with her nursing-age child a breast pump, and then you'd give Todd the day off on Easter Sunday because he celebrates it with his family. What you don't do, is apply these things equally, giving Todd a breast pump and forcing Cindy to take the day off when she needs those hours. The measured result of employee satisfaction is where you're supposed to see equality, but how you get there can be done equitably. And it doesn't have to be, because there's no anti-equality formula in DEI, so maybe there's a time where a blanket equal approach to something makes sense, so then you do that. None of it comes with an asterisk of having to abandon logic. People do that part on their own. 

Again, a total misrepresentation of reality. "Equity" is responsible for hiring people that are not qualified on their own merits. (To create an equal outcome) Thus reducing the quality of the workforce or a college. Unfortunately when it happens at the college level, people who got in not based on merit, have a much higher rate of failure and college debt.

byke
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Location
Auburn, CA, USA
7/21/2024 8:23pm Edited Date/Time 7/21/2024 8:30pm
ToolMaker wrote:

The "E" is claimed to stand for equity.

You're actually integrating bias to create "equity", so go away

 

byke wrote:
The equity is about recognizing that different people may have different needs and that you shouldn't be lazy and try to fix everything with blanket equal...

The equity is about recognizing that different people may have different needs and that you shouldn't be lazy and try to fix everything with blanket equal approaches. For example, if you wanted to provide a nursing area for your employees, you'd give Cindy with her nursing-age child a breast pump, and then you'd give Todd the day off on Easter Sunday because he celebrates it with his family. What you don't do, is apply these things equally, giving Todd a breast pump and forcing Cindy to take the day off when she needs those hours. The measured result of employee satisfaction is where you're supposed to see equality, but how you get there can be done equitably. And it doesn't have to be, because there's no anti-equality formula in DEI, so maybe there's a time where a blanket equal approach to something makes sense, so then you do that. None of it comes with an asterisk of having to abandon logic. People do that part on their own. 

ToolMaker wrote:
Again, a total misrepresentation of reality. "Equity" is responsible for hiring people that are not qualified on their own merits. (To create an equal outcome) Thus...

Again, a total misrepresentation of reality. "Equity" is responsible for hiring people that are not qualified on their own merits. (To create an equal outcome) Thus reducing the quality of the workforce or a college. Unfortunately when it happens at the college level, people who got in not based on merit, have a much higher rate of failure and college debt.

I think I've been upfront about the differences between the DEI itself and the reality or people implementing it. DEI itself is fine, but for some reason these colleges and businesses are doing things that are not DEI and calling it DEI, which causes people to blame DEI for things that are not DEI. Colleges seem to have the worst examples of it with their diversity statements, which have nothing to do with merit, and merit is everything that DEI is about. 

It's like the Westboro Church out there protesting at soldier's funerals. Any Christian will tell you, what they do isn't very Christian. They're doing it wrong and the principles behind Christianity aren't lessened just because someone is doing it wrong. I think this is a really important distinction to make with anything, because if we allow the thing to be blamed when someone does it wrong, then all we end up doing is banning things, while people keep getting a free pass for screwing them up. 

Take these colleges for example. We get rid of DEI, then DEI was the problem and you still have the same idiots in there doing something else with some other program, and the result will be the same, because the actual problem has not been corrected. What we should be doing is holding their feet to the fire and make them do what they're supposed to be doing. They're not implementing actual DEI because they don't like the result, so they've molested it until it gave them the result they wanted. The problem here is their desire, not the tool they use to accomplish it. 

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