Wisconsin....

6/6/2012 9:57am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2012 9:57am
jtomasik wrote:
I have a government contracting license. Bid a few jobs (even tried a few with Huck's business in mind). Nothing panned out. I do sub-contract work...
I have a government contracting license. Bid a few jobs (even tried a few with Huck's business in mind). Nothing panned out.

I do sub-contract work for several large companies that made their business getting government contracts to develop new products/technologies. These companies are loaded with PhD's (government seems to think PhD's are actually more effective and intelligent than those without...so they favor companies that are full of those degrees). I've yet to see either company move any of these projects into the last phase, which is manufacture. So far, it's been a cost/schedule circle jerk just to keep the money flowing.
The downside of government contract work is the up front campaign contributions, the plus side is you can still do the job even if you drink everyday at work.
6/6/2012 10:06am
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't be paid but it should be a free market. If you posted an opening for a principle job at $100,000 minus all the red tape nonsense requirements the the various education agencies have created what caliber applicant do you think they would receive? Most education workers are either terrible at their jobs or are completely hindered by the ridiculous system. You are for free markets aren't you?
vet323
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6/6/2012 10:13am
It's an entry-level job.

The living wage for Santa Fe is $10.64/hr as of this year-$12/hr for a basic, entry-level job is reasonable-all that means is that entry-level state employees in NM may not be getting overpaid OR underpaid. I would maintain that state employees in WI are probably in the same boat.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 10:27am
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't...
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't be paid but it should be a free market. If you posted an opening for a principle job at $100,000 minus all the red tape nonsense requirements the the various education agencies have created what caliber applicant do you think they would receive? Most education workers are either terrible at their jobs or are completely hindered by the ridiculous system. You are for free markets aren't you?
No, superintendents and principals do not receive Christmas and spring breaks off, nor the summer breaks. They are 52 week positions, with the normal days off that most people get, even though they may work some of them and work the extra hours that their position requires.

The Shop

jtomasik
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6/6/2012 10:39am
It's an entry level job for high-school educated store clerk. Jeezus.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 10:58am
And it's not a position someone should expect to live off of, either. If you're thinking this is your full-time job, then go back to living with your mother until you put together a career.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 11:12am
Not sure I follow.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 11:20am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2012 11:21am
And this tells me what and matters how? If you want to float through life in that gig, or lean on a shovel, or hold a sign that tells traffic to slow, more power to ya'. But, that doesn't mean I should be picking up the tab for your complacency.
vet323
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6/6/2012 11:27am
So, you're arguing that these jobs are both poorly paid AND "very desirable"?

Interesting tack, fart. I'm not sure how to counter that.
motosmith
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6/6/2012 11:38am
vet323 wrote:
So, you're arguing that these jobs are both poorly paid AND "very desirable"?

Interesting tack, fart. I'm not sure how to counter that.
Because they're happy with the job and happy with the pay. They just bitch in hopes of getting a raise. If not, no biggie, at least they tried.
6/6/2012 11:40am
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't...
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't be paid but it should be a free market. If you posted an opening for a principle job at $100,000 minus all the red tape nonsense requirements the the various education agencies have created what caliber applicant do you think they would receive? Most education workers are either terrible at their jobs or are completely hindered by the ridiculous system. You are for free markets aren't you?
APLMAN99 wrote:
No, superintendents and principals do not receive Christmas and spring breaks off, nor the summer breaks. They are 52 week positions, with the normal days off...
No, superintendents and principals do not receive Christmas and spring breaks off, nor the summer breaks. They are 52 week positions, with the normal days off that most people get, even though they may work some of them and work the extra hours that their position requires.
Yes they do. Not the entire summer but they certainly get much more vacation then most private sector workers. Also have we mentioned that most are failing our kids miserably.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8133277_average-school-principal-washington-state.html

Shoreline School District, just north of Seattle, pays an elementary school principal $107,972, as of 2011. The Tacoma News Tribune compiled a list of elementary school principals' salaries, which range from $65,139 in the Federal Way School District to $133,305

Principals are given 12 days annually for sick leave or injury, and 27 vacation days in Shoreline. A one-year sabbatical leave is available to elementary school principals, at a reduced salary rate
TeamGreen
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6/6/2012 12:04pm
drmarkr wrote:
Guess most of you fucks just don't want to discuss the topic of this thread...... This is the beginning of the end of public sector collective...
Guess most of you fucks just don't want to discuss the topic of this thread......

This is the beginning of the end of public sector collective bargaining. In the state where such crap was born.....

No doubt, others will be emboldened by this victory, and the 'fox guarding the henhouse" crap of public employee unions will die a shithole death. Gawd, I love it.....
Huh? OK, I'll bite...

Have we forgotten that people MAKE their own Career choices?

Or that these Gov't types get Holidays and in the case of a Teacher a 9 month Work-Year?

How about the Good Ol' Days when a gov't job was a conscious decision one made knowing that they'd make a little less and get Better Beni's and Plenty of Holidays...?

Then there's this...

Why is it JUST FINE with Soooo many of you when the Unions get away with RIDICULOUS SHIT ...BUT...It's NOT OK when someone takes a bit back from them and...in this case...Removes some of their MANIPULATIVE POWER...?

Or...are we going to be gnorant enough to believe that some of these worthless pieces of shit DIDN'T get these jobs due to the UNIONS ABILITY TO MANIPULATE DURING "Labor Negotiations"?

Furthermore, How the FUCK did we end up in a Country where Union Membership is MANDATORY and "Prevailing Wage" is the Phrase of the Day?

The Bottom-Line?

We are in a Period of Recognition.

Let's 1st take the time to be brutally HONEST and WON the Fact that WE DID THIS TO OURSELVES.

We EXPORTED our Mfg-Base AWAY and EVERY fcking ONE OF US participated. From your Chi-Com knock-off POS crap that you buy from Rocky-Mountain ATV to the Chi-Com POS TV -I- BOUGHT AT the Wally-Mart.

Then there's the fact WE let it happen.

The "Housing Bubble"...?

Did YOU Purchase of Re-Fi in the Last Decade? If so...you're part of it. Especially if you bought "Too Much"...or Got it Waaay Too Easily...or got it when ya really didn't need it...some of you KNOW you were thinking..."Ya know, I really DON'T need to do this...". Hell, I know I did.

Glass-Steagall? We didn't pay attention...as usual...we were all Too Busy.

I don't remember a single damn ONE OF US UP IN HERE TALKING ABOUT...Brooksley Born or SCREAMING about the Easy Money we were getting?

How about some of the Ridiculous money some of us have made over the years...Not to mention the Easy Money that everyone went and bought their 5th Wheelers and xtra toys with.

Or...how we don't seem to give a shit til it's too late.

Or...how we all seem to accept the fckin' checks when they come in the mail...Unemployment...Disability...etc. Yes, some are legit...but...really...who can't do some kinda work when/if they can sit here and type a whinning bitchy response...?

Time to Recognize and make changes.

Time to quit Bitching and Start fixing.

Some will call it "Austerity"...or "Unfair"...then there's the Class Warfare sniveling little shits. How's that Hope-n-Change working for ya?

The "Have your Cake and Eat it, too" days need to end.

Time to pay up.

The Unions that think they're "Gonna get theirs no matter WHO has to pay" are gonna see a Big Change in the Public Opinion Polls...the Union Bosses should know, by now, that MANY OF US are jus' TIRED of their manipulation of Gov't Jobs.



That's what I got from this "Wisconsin F-Up" we've just witnessed.
6/6/2012 12:40pm
to add insult to injury.

Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker

MILWAUKEE - It must have stung for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett to call Gov. Scott Walker and concede defeat Tuesday night, but not nearly as much as the slap he got from a supporter angry over his concession speech. Shortly after 10 p.m. local time, Barrett took the stage at his election night rally in downtown Milwaukee. By then, networks had projected Walker as the winner of the recall race. "I just got off the phone with Gov. Walker and congratulated him on his victory tonight," Barrett said, prompting boos from the crowd. "We agreed that it is important for us to work together." "No!" shouted the crowd. Afterwards, as Barrett greeted his supporters, a woman approached him and reportedly asked, "Can I slap you?" Barrett replied that he would prefer that she hugged him, so he leaned down, anticipating a hug but instead got the slap that she had requested. In the video of the incident, Barrett's head jerks back from the slap.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 12:46pm
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't...
You got to remember they get every holiday off plus a lot of the summer, Christmas break and Spring break. It is not that they shouldn't be paid but it should be a free market. If you posted an opening for a principle job at $100,000 minus all the red tape nonsense requirements the the various education agencies have created what caliber applicant do you think they would receive? Most education workers are either terrible at their jobs or are completely hindered by the ridiculous system. You are for free markets aren't you?
APLMAN99 wrote:
No, superintendents and principals do not receive Christmas and spring breaks off, nor the summer breaks. They are 52 week positions, with the normal days off...
No, superintendents and principals do not receive Christmas and spring breaks off, nor the summer breaks. They are 52 week positions, with the normal days off that most people get, even though they may work some of them and work the extra hours that their position requires.
Yes they do. Not the entire summer but they certainly get much more vacation then most private sector workers. Also have we mentioned that most are...
Yes they do. Not the entire summer but they certainly get much more vacation then most private sector workers. Also have we mentioned that most are failing our kids miserably.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8133277_average-school-principal-washington-state.html

Shoreline School District, just north of Seattle, pays an elementary school principal $107,972, as of 2011. The Tacoma News Tribune compiled a list of elementary school principals' salaries, which range from $65,139 in the Federal Way School District to $133,305

Principals are given 12 days annually for sick leave or injury, and 27 vacation days in Shoreline. A one-year sabbatical leave is available to elementary school principals, at a reduced salary rate
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.

You don't become a principal at the age of 22. Those people have generally worked there way up to that level and have at least a Master's degree, if not a PhD.
vet323
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6/6/2012 12:58pm
to add insult to injury. [url=http://news.yahoo.com/barrett-slapped-face-conceding-recall-walker-135618842--abc-news-politics.html] Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker[/url] [i]MILWAUKEE - It must have stung for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett...
to add insult to injury.

Barrett Slapped In Face After Conceding Recall To Walker

MILWAUKEE - It must have stung for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett to call Gov. Scott Walker and concede defeat Tuesday night, but not nearly as much as the slap he got from a supporter angry over his concession speech. Shortly after 10 p.m. local time, Barrett took the stage at his election night rally in downtown Milwaukee. By then, networks had projected Walker as the winner of the recall race. "I just got off the phone with Gov. Walker and congratulated him on his victory tonight," Barrett said, prompting boos from the crowd. "We agreed that it is important for us to work together." "No!" shouted the crowd. Afterwards, as Barrett greeted his supporters, a woman approached him and reportedly asked, "Can I slap you?" Barrett replied that he would prefer that she hugged him, so he leaned down, anticipating a hug but instead got the slap that she had requested. In the video of the incident, Barrett's head jerks back from the slap.
Yeah, I saw that Gabe. Those Barrett "supporters" sound like they will deal in good faith for sure!
vet323
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6/6/2012 1:09pm
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 1:15pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
TeamGreen
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6/6/2012 1:15pm
Teachers Unions, Book/Syllabus selection, Retirement funding, "illegally dissolved"...

Nice.

That angry lesbian woman on MSNBC must be proud.

Ignorance, it's what's for Dinner.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 1:17pm
I'm saying that's the max pay a position like that should offer. If you think it should be more because you "can't live on it", I think it's bullshit. It's a convenience store level job. That's it. If someone wants to float in that shit, fine. Get paid fair market value, not a cent more, and don't whine that you can't make a living on it (like you were questioning earlier) without having other jobs. Hell, we haven't even brought up the benefits a government employee gets relative to the private sector.
vet323
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6/6/2012 1:19pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
Sorry...there is no "sarcasm" font-I was attempting a joke.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 1:20pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
vet323 wrote:
Sorry...there is no "sarcasm" font-I was attempting a joke.
Oooops, I certainly missed that......
6/6/2012 1:32pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for people getting paid what they are worth but I just don't see how that price wouldn't go drastically down if you removed all the red tape it takes to get there. I just don't see that position requiring very much skill. I spent a lot of time with my various principles and they had average leadership skills at best.
TeamGreen
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6/6/2012 1:44pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for...
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for people getting paid what they are worth but I just don't see how that price wouldn't go drastically down if you removed all the red tape it takes to get there. I just don't see that position requiring very much skill. I spent a lot of time with my various principles and they had average leadership skills at best.
What are the avg Educational, "Time in Service" & comparable Compensation metrics for the avg E/S Principle (aka Principal)...&...

Why do we make Teachers into Los Campeons & throw Administrators under the bus?

On E/S "Principles", I know a few & they've got solid MS/MA..w/ 2/5 having PHDs.

And, yes, for all those involved...

It was/is a "Calling".

The true issue is the Unions & the Clusterfuck that they've become.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2012 1:52pm
vet323 wrote:
[b]That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive...
That's about average for a public sector worker with that level of education and experience. It's very close to the level of vacation that I receive, and I was "out of the work force" (self employed) for many years so it isn't as though I have been racking up a ton of "service time" with my employer. I get 4 weeks of vacation, and up to 12 weeks of sick pay (full salary) each calendar year.


There is no way that you have those kind of benefits. You already told us you aren't in a union so it's not possible-those kind of benefits only come with collective bargaining.
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for...
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for people getting paid what they are worth but I just don't see how that price wouldn't go drastically down if you removed all the red tape it takes to get there. I just don't see that position requiring very much skill. I spent a lot of time with my various principles and they had average leadership skills at best.
Of course the problem is that you don't see the position requiring much skill, but that's silly thinking.

Maybe human nature is that we all look at what someone else does and think it must be really easy, but I'm pretty involved in our school district and from my experience, it takes a LOT of different skills be to a principal, and despite your thinking that elementary schools should be easier, I don't think that's the case.

As for red tape, it doesn't take red tape to get in that position. It takes years and years of experience and education.

Oh, and that "year off"? You might want to check into what a sabbatical year truly is, then it might make sense.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 5:15pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
You are wrong. My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be. I have those benefits because...
You are wrong.

My job would be considered salaried managment, just like a school superintendent or a principal probably would be.

I have those benefits because my job isn't completely easy, and you don't just walk into it and do it without experience, much like a principal or superintendent. Turnover in my position, or in those positions, would suck worse than paying a very good salary or providing great benefits.
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for...
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for people getting paid what they are worth but I just don't see how that price wouldn't go drastically down if you removed all the red tape it takes to get there. I just don't see that position requiring very much skill. I spent a lot of time with my various principles and they had average leadership skills at best.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Of course the problem is that you don't see the position requiring much skill, but that's silly thinking. Maybe human nature is that we all look...
Of course the problem is that you don't see the position requiring much skill, but that's silly thinking.

Maybe human nature is that we all look at what someone else does and think it must be really easy, but I'm pretty involved in our school district and from my experience, it takes a LOT of different skills be to a principal, and despite your thinking that elementary schools should be easier, I don't think that's the case.

As for red tape, it doesn't take red tape to get in that position. It takes years and years of experience and education.

Oh, and that "year off"? You might want to check into what a sabbatical year truly is, then it might make sense.
I'll agree in saying that education is valuable, more so than what we pay the teachers. The problem with mediocre pay for the teachers is that it draws from the bottom of the barrel in intelligence, relative to the collegiate ranks. Try some of the engineering courses (mechanical, electrical, chemical), and compare them to what a teacher has to go through. Most of the people who do decent in the engineering courses could sleep through great grades in the educational majors.

So, I think we should draw in better minds into our educational system. That means more money to the teachers. Now, how do we pay for that? I say tax the churches. They've been getting a free ride forever. Time for those businesses to pay their fair share.
APLMAN99
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6/6/2012 5:23pm
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for...
This is an elementary school principle we are talking about. $130,000 plus full retirement, plus a year off, plus excellent medical benefits. I am all for people getting paid what they are worth but I just don't see how that price wouldn't go drastically down if you removed all the red tape it takes to get there. I just don't see that position requiring very much skill. I spent a lot of time with my various principles and they had average leadership skills at best.
APLMAN99 wrote:
Of course the problem is that you don't see the position requiring much skill, but that's silly thinking. Maybe human nature is that we all look...
Of course the problem is that you don't see the position requiring much skill, but that's silly thinking.

Maybe human nature is that we all look at what someone else does and think it must be really easy, but I'm pretty involved in our school district and from my experience, it takes a LOT of different skills be to a principal, and despite your thinking that elementary schools should be easier, I don't think that's the case.

As for red tape, it doesn't take red tape to get in that position. It takes years and years of experience and education.

Oh, and that "year off"? You might want to check into what a sabbatical year truly is, then it might make sense.
jtomasik wrote:
I'll agree in saying that education is valuable, more so than what we pay the teachers. The problem with mediocre pay for the teachers is that...
I'll agree in saying that education is valuable, more so than what we pay the teachers. The problem with mediocre pay for the teachers is that it draws from the bottom of the barrel in intelligence, relative to the collegiate ranks. Try some of the engineering courses (mechanical, electrical, chemical), and compare them to what a teacher has to go through. Most of the people who do decent in the engineering courses could sleep through great grades in the educational majors.

So, I think we should draw in better minds into our educational system. That means more money to the teachers. Now, how do we pay for that? I say tax the churches. They've been getting a free ride forever. Time for those businesses to pay their fair share.
I don't know that an engineering student would make a good teacher or not. Teaching is about subject matter, of course, but also about curriculum development and delivery. I know several engineers who understand their professions well, but don't have the personality or inclination to teach others. They wouldn't have done well in the educational field.

On the flip side, my son's favorite math teacher was originally an engineer who couldn't stand the field but went back to get his ed. credentials and was a fantastic educator.

Hard to tell, especially when a young person tries to choose their career path before they are even 21......
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 5:33pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2012 5:34pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I don't know that an engineering student would make a good teacher or not. Teaching is about subject matter, of course, but also about curriculum development...
I don't know that an engineering student would make a good teacher or not. Teaching is about subject matter, of course, but also about curriculum development and delivery. I know several engineers who understand their professions well, but don't have the personality or inclination to teach others. They wouldn't have done well in the educational field.

On the flip side, my son's favorite math teacher was originally an engineer who couldn't stand the field but went back to get his ed. credentials and was a fantastic educator.

Hard to tell, especially when a young person tries to choose their career path before they are even 21......
Yeah, and I know lousy teachers who passed the courses but do a shit job in the classroom. I never said every person with higher academic intelligence would be a great teacher, but by increasing the pay rates, you most certainly could attract a larger prospective group, and quite possibly better quality individuals. I had some great instructors who were engineers, by the way, and I also taught Calculus in junior college about 20 years ago. However, I'll say that teaching a group of people who all want to do good is likely much different than teaching a bunch of kids who are "taken hostage" by the system.

Can we still tax the churches?
6/6/2012 7:24pm
jtomasik wrote:
I'll agree in saying that education is valuable, more so than what we pay the teachers. The problem with mediocre pay for the teachers is that...
I'll agree in saying that education is valuable, more so than what we pay the teachers. The problem with mediocre pay for the teachers is that it draws from the bottom of the barrel in intelligence, relative to the collegiate ranks. Try some of the engineering courses (mechanical, electrical, chemical), and compare them to what a teacher has to go through. Most of the people who do decent in the engineering courses could sleep through great grades in the educational majors.

So, I think we should draw in better minds into our educational system. That means more money to the teachers. Now, how do we pay for that? I say tax the churches. They've been getting a free ride forever. Time for those businesses to pay their fair share.
I say tax the churches Whatcha talkin about willis?

Triracer already explained to you why that's not a good idea but even beyond that Churches do not produce anything or render any services except weddings and funerals which most do not charge for, if they do charge for renting the building then they do pay taxes on that I believe. All the money a church gets has already been taxed from those who donate the money. Heck man if you take this too far I am going to have to form a union.
jtomasik
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6/6/2012 7:35pm
[b]I say tax the churches[/b] Whatcha talkin about willis? Triracer already explained to you why that's not a good idea but even beyond that Churches do...
I say tax the churches Whatcha talkin about willis?

Triracer already explained to you why that's not a good idea but even beyond that Churches do not produce anything or render any services except weddings and funerals which most do not charge for, if they do charge for renting the building then they do pay taxes on that I believe. All the money a church gets has already been taxed from those who donate the money. Heck man if you take this too far I am going to have to form a union.
Churches provide religious services by taking in revenue from their customers.
6/6/2012 7:52pm
[b]I say tax the churches[/b] Whatcha talkin about willis? Triracer already explained to you why that's not a good idea but even beyond that Churches do...
I say tax the churches Whatcha talkin about willis?

Triracer already explained to you why that's not a good idea but even beyond that Churches do not produce anything or render any services except weddings and funerals which most do not charge for, if they do charge for renting the building then they do pay taxes on that I believe. All the money a church gets has already been taxed from those who donate the money. Heck man if you take this too far I am going to have to form a union.
jtomasik wrote:
Churches provide religious services by taking in revenue from their customers.
No it's different because the people who contribute the money are part of the church.

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