Business owner question.....

silver753
Posts
144
Joined
5/18/2010
Location
Brick, NJ, USA
Edited Date/Time 3/27/2013 5:02pm
Are you for or against online sales tax?

I've owned my own retail business for almost ten years and I for one, support it. I admit, I haven't really done any in depth research on the matter, but from my side, I'm 100% for it. I'm sure some of the respones here will shed some light my way on the other side of it.

As the owner of a small brick and motar motorcycle shop that does roughly 1,000,000 per year, margins are TIGHT. A million sounds like a lot, but once you factor in payroll (2 to 6 employees, depending on the season) taxes, insurance, inventory, rent, utilities, ect, there's not a lot left. As a nameless poster, I will say I make more doing this than I ever did doing concrete or working as an employee at a shop. I don't see myself making over 70,000 per year anytime soon, but I do pretty good considering I work 50 to 60 hours per week for about 9 months out of the year. I sometimes wish for a regular 40 hour per week schedule and a set salary.

Back to the subject, I find it VERY difficult to compete with online stores sometimes. I like to think we make it by on customer service. But it would be nice if the big online guys had to add an extra 5% to 8% sales tax into thier price, like we do. Here's an example. If you buy a Dunlop MX51 110/90-19" or 110/80-19" from us, we pay, as a dealer with a pretty good discount, $80.00. That's our cost (rounded up to the nearest dollar). If I price it at $10.00 over cost, which is what we do, and add sales tax, we are MORE than what you can buy from Rocky Mtn or another online store. So that would be cost+$10.00 plus tax equals close to $96.00. If you pay with a credit card (or debit ran as a credit) it takes 2% to 4% off of that, so we make roughly $7.00 or so. This is what I sell them for and I still hear the occasional "You're too expensive", or "You're raping me on the tires BRO!".

If you put the exra tax on online, it would at least level the field somewhat, almost double my already weak margins. Another example is a set of wheels. Some of you won't believe it, but an extra 5% to 8% would help us out a ton. On a recent set of wheels I sold that matched the online price out the door, it was roughly $800 to the customer. After cost of product, shipping, and then lowering the price an extra $180 to match the already rediculous online price, I took off an extra $50 because I had to charge tax, but now I can offer it to the customer at the same as online price. The customer paid with a credit card (an additional 3%) I ended up with roughly $25 in profit on an $800 ticket. Lame. It could have been $75 if the online guys had to add tax.

Sorry if I sounded like a whiner, I have no reason to cry too loudly from my soap box. I've been doing it for close to 10 years, and I know that's the way the business world works sometimes. We've made it every year and will continue to do so in the future. Sometimes we do good, sometimes we dont'. And some of you against the tax might say I only want it because I'm a greedy business owner and I would use the money to go buy a new pair of Gaerne SG-10's and maybe a down payment on a new 450. Well, you are correct. hahaha
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3/24/2013 8:56pm
I really feel for you guys in the motorcycle industry. But you have to realize, you are talking about your stance on a national issue when really you guys (as an industry) should be taking a stance with your manufactures and suppliers for not allowing you to have an even playing field with online suppliers. Any other industry cares enough about their customers (the dealers) to allow them to have the same competitive advantage as any other dealer. Be that a brick and mortar store or an online retailer. Your industry doesn't care enough about you and other dealers to set MAP pricing on their products. Plain and simple. I know the reason is that they don't want to police it and risk lawsuits for when they don't. I hate to say it but your margins are ridiculous. I can't see how anybody can be a businessman in an industry that solely relies on their dealers being passion driven to do what they do. It is almost like they are doing you a favor by letting you have the rights to sell their products. Because they sure don't stand behind you. That isn't right.

I have opinions on a national tax for online sales but it has nothing to do with the reasons you mentioned.
Spergen
Posts
761
Joined
5/16/2011
Location
GB
3/24/2013 8:57pm
I have been saying that to people for a while now. You can see the effect online shopping is having on the shops around most city's in the UK. Lots of small independent family business are closing because of large online retailers with just a warehouse somewhere with minimal overheads. And in Europe most of them are in a TAX haven so even cheaper still.

I feel that is a very good idea to impose a higher tax on online retailers. Although ironically i am one of the people who buy on line !
tunedlength
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2782
Joined
12/9/2006
Location
Ontario, CA, USA
3/24/2013 9:24pm
"I ended up with roughly $25 in profit on an $800 ticket" This is the recipe for a complete business failure.
How can you afford to give your customers top notch service with such slim margins?

You need to make a fair profit so you can support yourself and your employees.
Look at the areas with reasonable profit potential.
Might just be labor and last minute items like oil, battery's handlebars, chains and sprockets.
Stock a few popular sizes of tires and tubes.
There may be a potential for impulse items like plastic and graphic kits.
Charge full retail. don't budge.
Encourage your customers to buy thing like wheels tire etc online.
Explain to them that you are actually losing money on those items (given your above example you are) and that you don't begrudge them for purchasing items online.
Some will understand and some will not.
I know you didn't ask for all this but as someone who has been there, this is your only hope.
markit
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2641
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1/10/2013
Location
Bogalusa, LA, USA
3/25/2013 6:04am
If you have 10 yrs in thats great. I have a part time shop (ATV mostly) and mainly do electrical and A/C where i can make @ leat 40% on parts. I found out quick i had to sale a lot more mc atv parts to equil my day job.LOL I've thought about say 5 to 10 small shops banding together for larger orders to combat the net co's but this would be hard to do too. The mc business is a hard road congat's to you for hanging in there, i dont have any real answers as im much a smaller business than you.

The Shop

purpleNurple
Posts
912
Joined
1/29/2010
Location
Fort Stewart, GA, USA
3/25/2013 6:39am
I recently switched to all online purchases for my street bike. It had everything to do with the lack of good local stores and nothing to do with saving money. After a lot of research and trial and error with some websites I found a good somewhat small shop that does online sales and I will be sticking with them. If there was a sales tax put on the internet it would not change my shopping. Customer service is everything to me in regards to my motorcycle purchases, I think it means a lot if I can trust the opinion of sales reps that are not trying to dick me over to make a penny.
borg
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6860
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Location
Long Beach, CA, USA
3/25/2013 7:12am
I have a friend in the bar business. Every once in a while someone will ask him why he doesn't have specials like happy hour. His philosophy is that he doesn't want the customers who only come in for the specials. They're cheap, they sip on one drink for hour and don't tip. They can go someplace else. His regular customers get special treatment in other ways.

I don't know if this same philosophy would work in a bike shop or not but it sounds like maybe it's not worth it to knuckle under to the cheapskates.
Crash82
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9020
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Location
MONTGOMERY, AL, USA
3/25/2013 7:39am
We have a local 10 percent sales tax, if i can buy it online and save tax i will. As a consumer I like no tax online but local businesses are getting screwed.
vet323
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3606
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Location
Lead, SD, USA
3/25/2013 8:13am
This post is so silly it doesn't warrant a response, except to note how ironic it is that a lefty like you is advocating against raising taxes on consumption.
JustMX
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5283
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
3/25/2013 9:03am
Not charging online sales is giving them an unfair advantage over brick and mortar stores, plain and simple.

Old Fart's arguement is rather amusing considering some stuff going on down here in the Carolinas.

The state was pursuing Amazon to build a distribution center so they floated the idea of a sales tax exemption. However it was never a firm commitment.

Amazon started construction.

Then a "grassroots" organization started running ads opposing the exemption.

Amazon stopped construction and threatened to pull out.

The state backed off and commited to the exemption.

All is well.

Then it comes out that the "grassroots" organization was actually formed and funded by WALMART.

If margins are so thin that Walmart is scared of a competitor getting un unfair exemption, how can a small business owner possibly compete?
motosmith
Posts
2046
Joined
11/8/2010
Location
Washougal, WA, USA
3/25/2013 9:11am
Congratulations on ten years in business.

I'm a business owner so I know how difficult it can be. The most difficult aspect for me is not being able to shut off my mind. I'm thinking, analyzing and planning almost every waking hour of the day whether I'm at work or not. There are always the fires that need to be put out too. My wife and I took a vacation to Hawaii and a major work problem arises on the way to the airport. I spent the first two days of our vacation in our hotel room working. My wife was breathing fire but there was nothing I could do about it. There’s no such thing as "time off".

The most expensive part of running a business is employees, period. It sounds like the online shops have an advantage of low employee overhead. That’s tough to compete with although it’s not the end of the world. You have the advantage of customer service which is something they can’t compete with.

Stick with it. Ten years is a great accomplishment.
MR. X
Posts
6913
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6/24/2010
Location
North Tonawanda, NY, USA
3/25/2013 9:17am
They just opened a shit hole Walmart in the city where I live, they gave Walmart 10 years with no property tax to get them to sign, why can't cities do something like that for small shops as well?
JustMX
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5283
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Location
USA
3/25/2013 9:49am
Wow,

Talk about something whizzing right over somebody's head.

If Walmart, with their reputation for low overhead and thin margins, has to fight a competitor getting a tax exemption is that not a solid indication that it is not just a matter of doing it better/cheaper/faster?

It is not a level playing field.

You are correct that it should be about better/cheaper/faster., not about cutting the best deal with government at the expense of small business owners.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
USA
3/25/2013 10:05am
17 years in business for myself. Had been a few years since the wife and I had a vacation together when we opened up. We finally took our first real vacation in 17 years three years ago when we went to Hawaii for our 25th anniversary. Left this place for a whole damn week. It was to the point I really didn't give a shit if it burned down while we were gone, just take the insurance money and try something different! Laughing The collision repair business has its own issues with outside forces (insurance companies dictating) affecting our business.

About the sales tax. That's gets mixed reviews from me, no easy answer. I always try to buy local first. As a business owner, I understand the importance of it and never complain about paying a reasonable amount more to do so. But there are things such as poor quality service, lack of inventory and refusal to get what I want( see the poor service comment) that often times blow it for the local guy. Some businesses just don't give a shit and it shows.

I bought something locally a few years back that was going to end up with a large amount of sales tax on it. Considering what it was, I felt that was an inappropriate amount of tax to pay for a small item regardless what it sold for. Kind of like expecting a rich person to pay 500 times more income tax than an individual who makes a small portion of what he does. Wink I still bought the item locally but took the long way around with an out of state address for the invoicing and paid zero sales tax on it. Friends come in handy every now and then.
jtomasik
Posts
12895
Joined
8/17/2006
Location
Golden, CO, USA
3/25/2013 10:10am
silver753 wrote:
Are you for or against online sales tax? I've owned my own retail business for almost ten years and I for one, support it. I admit...
Are you for or against online sales tax?

I've owned my own retail business for almost ten years and I for one, support it. I admit, I haven't really done any in depth research on the matter, but from my side, I'm 100% for it. I'm sure some of the respones here will shed some light my way on the other side of it.

As the owner of a small brick and motar motorcycle shop that does roughly 1,000,000 per year, margins are TIGHT. A million sounds like a lot, but once you factor in payroll (2 to 6 employees, depending on the season) taxes, insurance, inventory, rent, utilities, ect, there's not a lot left. As a nameless poster, I will say I make more doing this than I ever did doing concrete or working as an employee at a shop. I don't see myself making over 70,000 per year anytime soon, but I do pretty good considering I work 50 to 60 hours per week for about 9 months out of the year. I sometimes wish for a regular 40 hour per week schedule and a set salary.

Back to the subject, I find it VERY difficult to compete with online stores sometimes. I like to think we make it by on customer service. But it would be nice if the big online guys had to add an extra 5% to 8% sales tax into thier price, like we do. Here's an example. If you buy a Dunlop MX51 110/90-19" or 110/80-19" from us, we pay, as a dealer with a pretty good discount, $80.00. That's our cost (rounded up to the nearest dollar). If I price it at $10.00 over cost, which is what we do, and add sales tax, we are MORE than what you can buy from Rocky Mtn or another online store. So that would be cost+$10.00 plus tax equals close to $96.00. If you pay with a credit card (or debit ran as a credit) it takes 2% to 4% off of that, so we make roughly $7.00 or so. This is what I sell them for and I still hear the occasional "You're too expensive", or "You're raping me on the tires BRO!".

If you put the exra tax on online, it would at least level the field somewhat, almost double my already weak margins. Another example is a set of wheels. Some of you won't believe it, but an extra 5% to 8% would help us out a ton. On a recent set of wheels I sold that matched the online price out the door, it was roughly $800 to the customer. After cost of product, shipping, and then lowering the price an extra $180 to match the already rediculous online price, I took off an extra $50 because I had to charge tax, but now I can offer it to the customer at the same as online price. The customer paid with a credit card (an additional 3%) I ended up with roughly $25 in profit on an $800 ticket. Lame. It could have been $75 if the online guys had to add tax.

Sorry if I sounded like a whiner, I have no reason to cry too loudly from my soap box. I've been doing it for close to 10 years, and I know that's the way the business world works sometimes. We've made it every year and will continue to do so in the future. Sometimes we do good, sometimes we dont'. And some of you against the tax might say I only want it because I'm a greedy business owner and I would use the money to go buy a new pair of Gaerne SG-10's and maybe a down payment on a new 450. Well, you are correct. hahaha
No, you don't sound like a whiner. Sounds like you're in a business where profit margins are really slim, so your concern is valid. Personally, I let the profit margins decide what business I chase. Not sure how you got to where you're at....so I'm not criticizing what you're doing.

There are a lot of tax laws that could be considered unfair. There are industries that get special tax breaks which other businesses (such as mine) do not. My girlfriend is the accounting manager at a fire prevention company. I don't know exactly how much of their operations is financed by the taxpayer, but I do know a portion of it is not. However, they're classified as a government business, and because of that, they pay zero taxes. Not sure what the requirements are to be considered a government business, which might be worth looking into. I do know some of the things they do compete directly with private business, so they have what I'd consider an unfair advantage.

I'm of the mindset to level the playing field, but not by increasing taxes. Personally, I'd rather do the opposite...decrease them for everyone. Unfortunately, our society is of the mindset to ask the government to do more instead of less, so the costs roll downhill and hurt private sector business.
jtomasik
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12895
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Golden, CO, USA
3/25/2013 10:14am
Ahhh...the Mitt Romney approach. I guess it's ok when you're doing it, though.
JustMX
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5283
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Location
USA
3/25/2013 10:29am
you didn't even duck for that one.

You make my arguement for me with "Everybody has to pay to play".
vet323
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Lead, SD, USA
3/25/2013 10:32am
The OP is talking about sales tax, fart. What the Hell does sales tax have to do with the bottom line? Silver (and other local business owners-including Walmart) have to collect sales tax and add it to their price. If they don't collect it, they go to jail. That means that even if their profits are cut to the bone, they have to take an additional 6% off to match the on line price. Meanwhile, the locale where the on line store has their warehouse does without sales tax revenue even though that warehouse takes advantage of the community infrastructure that state and city provides its commercial ventures (supposedly in exchange for sales tax revenue-at least partially).
jtomasik
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Golden, CO, USA
3/25/2013 10:47am
You're comical. Laughing
JustMX
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USA
3/25/2013 11:48am
How in the hell is a sales tax exemption NOT a government handout?
Crash82
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9020
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Location
MONTGOMERY, AL, USA
3/25/2013 12:21pm
Oh my did you just holler "GO WALMART!"

F Walmart! In 10 or 15 years they will leave a huge worthless crappy vacant building, the town will be stuck with it. F Walmart!
vet323
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3606
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Lead, SD, USA
3/25/2013 1:01pm
It's not non-existent.

It's the second-to-last number on the invoice.

"nonexistent"-try not paying it.
Crash82
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9020
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Location
MONTGOMERY, AL, USA
3/25/2013 1:06pm
So Walmart come in and most other grocery store fold. All I see is carnage and destruction. Vacant buildings everywhere! How does that help?
Crash82
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9020
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MONTGOMERY, AL, USA
3/25/2013 1:37pm Edited Date/Time 3/25/2013 1:38pm
I shop at this little place called food outlet:

Way better meats and the employees are actually friendly.
TX24
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2767
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5/7/2010
Location
San Antonio, TX, USA
3/25/2013 1:44pm
I owned my own retail tennis business for 11 years until I sold it. Very much like a mc business in general. You have hard goods, soft goods, and labor about the only place to make any money.

Here is why I am totally for sales tax on mail order things. Customer walks in looking for a pair of boots. The boots cost $400.
Your price is roughly $440 with sales tax. On line price $400 not hard to get free shipping on $400. The only service involved is either seller getting the right size, color, and delivered in a reasonable manor. It is not fair to you to have to compete like this just cause they can't figure out how to collect the tax or who gets it.
vet323
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Lead, SD, USA
3/25/2013 2:53pm
" I guess it's become the American way, gimme, gimme, gimme.Cheap parts and higher property taxes."-oldfart.
borg
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Long Beach, CA, USA
3/25/2013 3:09pm
Once oldfart stakes out a position, he will keep defending it no matter how ridiculous he has to get.
He doesn't want to be made to feel guilty that he goes into a B&M store, checks out a product and then goes home to order it online to save the sales tax. We all think you're guilty oldfart. You aint gettin away with it.
SlingShot
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Tulsa, OK, USA
3/25/2013 3:42pm Edited Date/Time 3/25/2013 3:46pm
If I have to pay an online sales tax, I'll make damn sure I shop online as much as possible then.

And for the guy above talking about "showcasing" (where a person walks into a store to check prices, then goes home and orders online), what's wrong with that? Hell I do it all the time. And consumers are crazy if they don't.
What the F is wrong with covering your ass before making a purchase? Am I to spend extra and "buy local" out of pity?
Holy shit. You bed wetting punters are out of your minds.
Sparkalounger
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1644
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Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
3/25/2013 3:49pm
SlingShot wrote:
If I have to pay an online sales tax, I'll make damn sure I shop online as much as possible then. And for the guy above...
If I have to pay an online sales tax, I'll make damn sure I shop online as much as possible then.

And for the guy above talking about "showcasing" (where a person walks into a store to check prices, then goes home and orders online), what's wrong with that? Hell I do it all the time. And consumers are crazy if they don't.
What the F is wrong with covering your ass before making a purchase? Am I to spend extra and "buy local" out of pity?
Holy shit. You bed wetting punters are out of your minds.
wow...
this is what our country has become....
vet323
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3606
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Lead, SD, USA
3/25/2013 4:10pm
Translation:

"Here are a bunch of made up numbers that I can use to claim that I know what I'm talking about, even though I neither understand the subject nor have the capacity to read and understand anyone else's point.

Bueller? "
3/25/2013 4:23pm
What would one buy at Walmart that they would then go home and buy online? You guys act like walmart doesn't sell online. www.walmart.com and no!, you can't buy many of the things at Walmart that you can buy from walmart.com. But when you look at it, it will come from major online retailers such as Hayneedle, Wayfair, ATG that is owned by Lowes and for a while Amazon. Maybe still on some items. The only reason Walmart would have an opposition with an Amazon distribution center is that they are getting their asses kicked by Amazon when dealing with these companies, because guess what, Amazon sells through these companies as well. The only real thing I can think of off the top of my head that Amazon is cutting into with Walmart is that they seem to have destroyed their in store DVD sales with their digital movie purchases. I'm sure Walmart stirs shit now and again with Amazon, Netflix, Apple Itunes but I guarantee it has nothing to do with sales tax.

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