Why is it so difficult?

EastFlorida
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EastFlorida
Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 8:46am
I was attempting to open a facility for people to ride. I didn't have plans yet for any racing, but all the crap I went through for insurance, etc... Man, I don't see how anyone can do it...

Too much litigation has everyone scared. I'm looking into what I can do to allow as many as possible without risking everything I own and any inheritance my sons may get...

Geez, everyone wants to sue....
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Smitch
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Smitch 2/9/2012 5:47pm
2/9/2012 5:47pm
In the words of the late Paul Harvey, "sewers (sue-ers) are ruining America."

Keep your chin up. There is still lots to be thankful for!
OW38B
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OW38B 2/9/2012 5:47pm
2/9/2012 5:47pm
Be glad you are not in California.......
Spahnzuki
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Spahnzuki 2/9/2012 6:09pm
2/9/2012 6:09pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 6:09pm
OW38B wrote:
Be glad you are not in California.......
No shit. Lawyers and politicians. Can't even play frisbee on the beach in LA...how lame is that? Not that I will ever go to LA again unless forced.
EvanR127
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EvanR127 2/9/2012 6:18pm
2/9/2012 6:18pm
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business which won't own the land.

The Shop

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JustMX
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JustMX 2/9/2012 8:14pm
2/9/2012 8:14pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 8:17pm
EvanR127 wrote:
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business...
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business which won't own the land.
Yeah, no lawyer would ever see through that.

EastFlorida, you are smart to be concerned.
tobz
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tobz 2/9/2012 8:16pm
2/9/2012 8:16pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 8:17pm
EvanR127 wrote:
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business...
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business which won't own the land.
JustMX wrote:
Yeah, no lawyer would ever see through that.

EastFlorida, you are smart to be concerned.
Are you a lawyer yourself? I thought that's how it worked.

Your "business" get sued, declares bankruptcy and can't pay, closes down, owner moves on. No?


edit: just seen you edited your little smart ass remark.nice move.
mattmatt300
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mattmatt300 2/9/2012 8:19pm
2/9/2012 8:19pm
make it a membership only "club" track
Hando
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Hando 2/9/2012 8:32pm
2/9/2012 8:32pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 8:35pm
its sad that the mfg's dont do more to support tracks and riding areas..since we need these to actually ride our bikes

i dont know how anyone does it either...id love to own an MX track one day but it looks like a losing proposition thats a huge head ache...

Field of dreams?

I heard in Nebraska the government opened up a state run track...
jasonv43
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jasonv43 2/9/2012 8:37pm
2/9/2012 8:37pm
OW38B wrote:
Be glad you are not in California.......
Spahnzuki wrote:
No shit. Lawyers and politicians. Can't even play frisbee on the beach in LA...how lame is that? Not that I will ever go to LA again...
No shit. Lawyers and politicians. Can't even play frisbee on the beach in LA...how lame is that? Not that I will ever go to LA again unless forced.
Yeah, and don't even think about throwing a football around with the guys. Or heaven forbid you wanna dig a hole deeper then 18 inches in the sand.
yamaha581
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yamaha581 2/9/2012 8:46pm
2/9/2012 8:46pm
The local track around my house has been working on an indoor sine last year and hes just had to keep putting more and more money into it because they keep saying more things he needs to do each time. It was scheduled to be done last year and now who knows when it will be finished.
tobz
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tobz 2/9/2012 9:05pm
2/9/2012 9:05pm Edited Date/Time 2/9/2012 10:05pm
Edit: Wrong thread. Love how this places takes you to a completely different thread when you login.
GuyB
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GuyB 2/9/2012 10:22pm
2/9/2012 10:22pm
I appreciate every track owner, but I sure wouldn't want to put myself in the position of being at the mercy of my worst customers.
DrSweden
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DrSweden 2/10/2012 3:58am
2/10/2012 3:58am Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 4:00am
I hear your pain, but this could be solved since not really an issue in other places and example my neck of the woods! Smile but you don't want the package that goes along saving the issue, so I guess this will not be solved as long as we live...Sad
2strokerider 2/10/2012 4:34am
2/10/2012 4:34am
you think you're hard done by?! you should try moving to the UK and opening a track up!!! nearly impossible with all the red tape/ complainers etc

Noise is a big issue over here- i think the db limit should be brought down to mid to high 80's and enforced everywhere, then maybe we would stand half a chance!
wreckitrandy
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wreckitrandy 2/10/2012 5:12am
2/10/2012 5:12am
EvanR127 wrote:
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business...
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business which won't own the land.
JustMX wrote:
Yeah, no lawyer would ever see through that.

EastFlorida, you are smart to be concerned.
tobz wrote:
Are you a lawyer yourself? I thought that's how it worked. Your "business" get sued, declares bankruptcy and can't pay, closes down, owner moves on. No...
Are you a lawyer yourself? I thought that's how it worked.

Your "business" get sued, declares bankruptcy and can't pay, closes down, owner moves on. No?


edit: just seen you edited your little smart ass remark.nice move.
u definitely have it going on there tobz. JustMX doesn't know anything about promoting races. Probably even less about lawyers and such. tracks should really take off over here now with your help on the legal end of things. thanks!
mxtech1
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mxtech1 2/10/2012 5:25am
2/10/2012 5:25am
Just build your track and only open it to your family and closest friends. Make sure the property grounds are guarded and there is only one point of entry/exit. At that point, you should use "no tresspassing" and "ride at own risk owner assumes no liability" signs. These signs may be your only real chance of winning a battle in court.

Don't charge anyone any money! This is a big point. As soon as people start paying you a track fee, they are buying a product from you and you are now held responsible. This isn't a big deal because the track is never going to make you much profit anyways. However, it is acceptable to accept "donations" from your riders to cover some of the track costs. But never force them to pay you something to ride.

If you really feel like you want to open a for-profit track, you will have to register it as a business. You will want to carry insurance year-round and you will probably want to include a lawyer in your plans from day one. A lawyer that can stick with you for alot of years and has a good understanding of your situation.

Keep in mind that if you are ever faced with a lawsuit, it's usually the rider's insurance company that will sue you to recoop their expenses in case of medical treatment. You won't just be fighting Joe Rider and his local lawyer, you will usually be facing the professional lawyer team of major insurance carriers. This is why track waivers often have no validity in the grand scheme of it. The waiver may state that "you as the rider will not sue in the case of an accident.....blah blah blah" which is fine, but keep in mind that the rider's representing insurance carrier did not sign that waiver, making it somewhat useless in the courts.

There's ways to get it done though and run a track that will be around for many years. Do an exhaustive amount of research and planning before you jump into anything.
Halfast816 2/10/2012 6:25am
2/10/2012 6:25am
Incorporate or at the very least an LLC they protect the owners private assets. Nothing shady but you will pay a premium for insurnce. Make sure your umbrella policies are large enough. Your corporation leases the land from you assuming all liabilities. In the case of suit being filed the plaintiff can go after the companies assets not privately held ones. Or let whomever you feel fit ride your land in the event of injury call the police then the ambulance and have the rider issued a trespassing citation before being hauled off.
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 2/10/2012 8:05am
2/10/2012 8:05am Edited Date/Time 2/10/2012 8:06am
EvanR127 wrote:
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business...
On paper u probably want to make it that u are renting the land to a business(fake), that way people can't sue u but the business which won't own the land.
JustMX wrote:
Yeah, no lawyer would ever see through that.

EastFlorida, you are smart to be concerned.
tobz wrote:
Are you a lawyer yourself? I thought that's how it worked. Your "business" get sued, declares bankruptcy and can't pay, closes down, owner moves on. No...
Are you a lawyer yourself? I thought that's how it worked.

Your "business" get sued, declares bankruptcy and can't pay, closes down, owner moves on. No?


edit: just seen you edited your little smart ass remark.nice move.
In typical lawyer fashion, maybe. There's an alter ego rule where setting a corporation up to shield you from personal liability will be respected only if you capitalize the business adequately to cover the anticipated risk associated with the activity. So if you just have a shell, and it's renting the land from you and there's nothing really in the business but a name, it may not guarantee as much protection as people say. If someone is hurt and it's determined that the business is liable, the court is unlikely to let that person go without compensation if the only thing standing between you and that is a corporate shell.

IMO a big key there is having adequate insurance to deal with those risks, even if it's expensive, and then pass that cost on. And if people don't want to pay it, those are probably the people you don't want.

Every state has variations in their law on how they treat releases and free offers land for recreation in terms of insulating you from liability. Contrary to a lot of comments, California actually has really good law on releases and assumption of risk with dirt bikes; the bigger constraint out here is permitting and land use regulation. Florida had a really bad decision a couple years ago on releases, especially as to kids.

If you're serious about it, talk with other track owners, see if they have particular insurance agents (maybe even one who rides and is motivated and knowledgable to find the right policy) and lawyers they work with who are familiar with the issues and law in Florida.

Pit Row

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TheNewOriginal 2/10/2012 8:11am
2/10/2012 8:11am
Some major problems are health insurance companies suing the track to recoup their medical payments. In all my track crashes, I always told the ER admissions person the bare minimum. As in, "I was jumping over a gap on a dirt trail, and landed wrong." Where did it happen? "It was a couple of miles off of I-75." I know a local track owner that ended up in huge debt over insurance company lawsuits; ended up selling the track. He had all the waivers, enforced the rules, ran a very professional track, etc...
FreshTopEnd
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FreshTopEnd 2/10/2012 8:28am
2/10/2012 8:28am
TheNewOriginal wrote:
Some major problems are health insurance companies suing the track to recoup their medical payments. In all my track crashes, I always told the ER admissions...
Some major problems are health insurance companies suing the track to recoup their medical payments. In all my track crashes, I always told the ER admissions person the bare minimum. As in, "I was jumping over a gap on a dirt trail, and landed wrong." Where did it happen? "It was a couple of miles off of I-75." I know a local track owner that ended up in huge debt over insurance company lawsuits; ended up selling the track. He had all the waivers, enforced the rules, ran a very professional track, etc...
This is a real issue. Almost everyone's insurance provides that if the insurance company pays your bills, they have the right to step into your shoes and recover what they paid from the person who may be liable. And they can be aggressive about pushing that issue regardless of what your own sensibilities are about suing tracks and assumption of risk.

And for the people that do sue, even if the insurance company doesn't start that process, they will put a lien on any judgment so that whatever someone recovers will first have to repay what insurance paid out for care before the person sees a dime of it himself. It's not uncommon for a plaintiff to have very little left after the insurance company gets paid and the lawyer takes his contingency fee.
Cygnus
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Cygnus 2/10/2012 8:39am
2/10/2012 8:39am
My best advice after owning a track for 5 years. Go pay the 10 dollars to ride at one of the other local fracks and when you ate done go home and have a cold beer.
jtomasik
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jtomasik 2/10/2012 8:46am
2/10/2012 8:46am
Cygnus wrote:
My best advice after owning a track for 5 years. Go pay the 10 dollars to ride at one of the other local fracks and when...
My best advice after owning a track for 5 years. Go pay the 10 dollars to ride at one of the other local fracks and when you ate done go home and have a cold beer.
It's about time you got here.

My son and I won't coming out tomorrow...weather's gonna be too shitty. We're bummed. Hopefully next weekend is nicer. We want to get down there and burn some fuel.

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