Front ABS for MX

jtomasik
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jtomasik
Edited Date/Time 3/19/2012 8:29pm
Saw in another thread (about Erin Bates) that people were discussing ABS for dirt. Has any manufacturer developed ABS for a dirt bike? I think ABS for a front wheel on a dirt bike would be extremely effective.
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Pollock580
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Pollock580 3/19/2012 1:48am
3/19/2012 1:48am
Husky have it on some of the TE449's. Think it would be pretty close to the ABS system used on BMW road and adventure bikes.
jtomasik
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jtomasik 3/19/2012 5:23am
3/19/2012 5:23am
I can understand not having it for the rear brake, but I can't think of situations where I've ever needed to slide the front wheel under braking. Maybe the pros have some techniques that include sliding the front, but I'm not aware of that.
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T-Fish 3/19/2012 8:19am
3/19/2012 8:19am
jtomasik wrote:
I can understand not having it for the rear brake, but I can't think of situations where I've ever needed to slide the front wheel under...
I can understand not having it for the rear brake, but I can't think of situations where I've ever needed to slide the front wheel under braking. Maybe the pros have some techniques that include sliding the front, but I'm not aware of that.
Stewart slides his front tire all the time. His jersey gets dirty soon after.
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GuyB 3/19/2012 8:25am
3/19/2012 8:25am
I've seen a few threads lately griping about the cost of new bikes, and in a lot of cases, I think they cost that much because manufacturers have given the people what they wanted. How much do you 'spose adding anti-lock brakes would add to the bottom line of a new bike?

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newmann
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newmann 3/19/2012 8:45am
3/19/2012 8:45am
GuyB wrote:
I've seen a few threads lately griping about the cost of new bikes, and in a lot of cases, I think they cost that much because...
I've seen a few threads lately griping about the cost of new bikes, and in a lot of cases, I think they cost that much because manufacturers have given the people what they wanted. How much do you 'spose adding anti-lock brakes would add to the bottom line of a new bike?
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc stripped down bare bones single cylinder dirt bike. Or a 800 pound 900cc V-Twin cruiser, chromed out with custom paint and pinstripes for the same price? Face it, motocross bikes are grossly overpriced compared to other products in their lines. And that my friends is not a 2 stroke point of view either.
newmann
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newmann 3/19/2012 8:46am
3/19/2012 8:46am
And where would they put the idiot light on the dash? LOL
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2T42 3/19/2012 8:55am
3/19/2012 8:55am
newmann wrote:
And where would they put the idiot light on the dash? LOL
Now you are on the right track.

They should ADD a dash. Then they would have a place for the voltage guage for the FI capacitor and a place for a port to plug in the laptop for mapping. There could be a status light for which ignition mode you are in for starts and racing. Less confusion. Maybe even a USB port so you could charge your cell phone and maybe a GPS.
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GuyB 3/19/2012 9:11am
3/19/2012 9:11am
newmann wrote:
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc...
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc stripped down bare bones single cylinder dirt bike. Or a 800 pound 900cc V-Twin cruiser, chromed out with custom paint and pinstripes for the same price? Face it, motocross bikes are grossly overpriced compared to other products in their lines. And that my friends is not a 2 stroke point of view either.
Well, you know how when you look at street bike prices, and you see the non-ABS vs. ABS-equipped pricing. That's what I was talking about. They're not giving it away for free.
jtomasik
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jtomasik 3/19/2012 9:20am
3/19/2012 9:20am
newmann wrote:
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc...
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc stripped down bare bones single cylinder dirt bike. Or a 800 pound 900cc V-Twin cruiser, chromed out with custom paint and pinstripes for the same price? Face it, motocross bikes are grossly overpriced compared to other products in their lines. And that my friends is not a 2 stroke point of view either.
Probably part of our killer is production volume. I'd guess the street bikes are more in the higher volume production tooling than our dirt bikes.

Yeah, it'd cost more, but I'd bet the performance gains would far outweigh dumping $1000 on a silencer and pipe.
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mjskier 3/19/2012 9:51am
3/19/2012 9:51am
jtomasik wrote:
I can understand not having it for the rear brake, but I can't think of situations where I've ever needed to slide the front wheel under...
I can understand not having it for the rear brake, but I can't think of situations where I've ever needed to slide the front wheel under braking. Maybe the pros have some techniques that include sliding the front, but I'm not aware of that.
I did a 2 day class with American Supercamp. Danny Walker does all kind of weird stuff with the front, including jamming the handlebar to the left (left turn) to scrub speed.
Of course this is flat track and they don't have a front brake. But still, at the level these guys ride I have to believe that they get a lot more control on their own than what an ABS system would give them.
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Xeno 3/19/2012 10:15am
3/19/2012 10:15am
ABS on dirt seems like a good way to end up on your face.
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TX24 3/19/2012 10:43am
3/19/2012 10:43am
I don't know what the latest tech is on them. Used to the hardware added about 3-5 lbs at least.
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mark_swart 3/19/2012 11:11am
3/19/2012 11:11am
Xeno wrote:
ABS on dirt seems like a good way to end up on your face.
I think so too. With such widely varying conditions, rider speeds, and not to mention added weight and price, it just doesn't seem feasible.
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Hman144 3/19/2012 11:15am
3/19/2012 11:15am Edited Date/Time 3/19/2012 11:15am
Just out of curiosity, what make you guys think front ABS would result in more crashes? Not saying I agree or disagree, just interested in your reaction and what's the theory behind it.

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newmann
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newmann 3/19/2012 11:41am
3/19/2012 11:41am
The added weight alone would make the front end less apt to slide out.....Evil
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mark_swart 3/19/2012 11:46am
3/19/2012 11:46am
I'm not an expert, but here's what my gut tells me: Feel how the ABS in a car pulses? Now factor that into the front end bouncing through braking bumps. So you 're bouncing intot that rough coner, and somehow the bike has to figure out if it's hitting the top of a bump, the bottom of a bump, in the air, etc etc. If it pulses at the wrong time, the front is going to lock up and knife, or not enough pulsing and it's not going to stop at all. I think this is just one of those things that won't translate from street to dirt... but again, it's just my theory.
Douchebag 3/19/2012 11:52am
3/19/2012 11:52am
newmann wrote:
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc...
Why would it add anything? As it is, you can buy a 4 cylinder 600cc crotch rocket from Yamaha for a grand less than a 450cc stripped down bare bones single cylinder dirt bike. Or a 800 pound 900cc V-Twin cruiser, chromed out with custom paint and pinstripes for the same price? Face it, motocross bikes are grossly overpriced compared to other products in their lines. And that my friends is not a 2 stroke point of view either.
jtomasik wrote:
Probably part of our killer is production volume. I'd guess the street bikes are more in the higher volume production tooling than our dirt bikes. Yeah...
Probably part of our killer is production volume. I'd guess the street bikes are more in the higher volume production tooling than our dirt bikes.

Yeah, it'd cost more, but I'd bet the performance gains would far outweigh dumping $1000 on a silencer and pipe.
I think it's more about the materials that are used for a RACE bike, instead for a ROAD bike. A 450 has to weight as light as possible, so they have to save each gram. For a road bike weight is not so important, so the materials they can use are probally a bit heavier (and cheaper).

I also think an engine for a race bike is a lot more refined than for a road bike. Every possible HP is squeeled for a 450. For a road bike it is easy to find an extra 10 - 15 HP (and I'm not talking about the road sportbikes, that's a different thing). If you would compare a road bike with a race bike than you should take a road sports bike (and those are a more priced than the 450 ...)

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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 3/19/2012 3:48pm
3/19/2012 3:48pm
ABS...not much different than Traction Control. In-fact...it's even worse.

Look, it's like this: Do you want the rider doing all the "Racing" or do you want the BIKE doing it?

GO take a look at Moto GP and F1. They're REMOVING the "Operated by Computer" decals.

I say NO to ABS, Traction-Control, Chassis Control/Active Suspension...etc.

And, "YES!", that means REMOVING Kawi's "Start-Mode" from the KX450.

This is where someone chimes in about Digital Ignitions and Injection...all the while...they're STILL wrong. The Riders WRIST still makes all the decisions.
ruckus
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ruckus 3/19/2012 3:55pm
3/19/2012 3:55pm
Just say NO to ABS. Good god, whats next? Cruise ctrl? I hate the ABS on street, would hate it worse on dirt. Its way to "safe" to be effective. Good luck with all that. Pointless idea.
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ruckus 3/19/2012 3:56pm
3/19/2012 3:56pm
TeamGreen wrote:
ABS...not much different than Traction Control. In-fact...it's even worse. Look, it's like this: Do you want the rider doing all the "Racing" or do you want...
ABS...not much different than Traction Control. In-fact...it's even worse.

Look, it's like this: Do you want the rider doing all the "Racing" or do you want the BIKE doing it?

GO take a look at Moto GP and F1. They're REMOVING the "Operated by Computer" decals.

I say NO to ABS, Traction-Control, Chassis Control/Active Suspension...etc.

And, "YES!", that means REMOVING Kawi's "Start-Mode" from the KX450.

This is where someone chimes in about Digital Ignitions and Injection...all the while...they're STILL wrong. The Riders WRIST still makes all the decisions.
What he says
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Flatliner 3/19/2012 5:34pm
3/19/2012 5:34pm
mark_swart wrote:
I'm not an expert, but here's what my gut tells me: Feel how the ABS in a car pulses? Now factor that into the front end...
I'm not an expert, but here's what my gut tells me: Feel how the ABS in a car pulses? Now factor that into the front end bouncing through braking bumps. So you 're bouncing intot that rough coner, and somehow the bike has to figure out if it's hitting the top of a bump, the bottom of a bump, in the air, etc etc. If it pulses at the wrong time, the front is going to lock up and knife, or not enough pulsing and it's not going to stop at all. I think this is just one of those things that won't translate from street to dirt... but again, it's just my theory.
I have an abs cbr 600rr. There is pulsing at the lever, but unless your really sensitive you would never ever notice. On streetbikes its amazing. I don't know how it would translate to dirt, because the system as a whole adds 22 lbs, as oppose to the non abs cbr.
Blackopsrider7 3/19/2012 8:29pm
3/19/2012 8:29pm
TeamGreen wrote:
ABS...not much different than Traction Control. In-fact...it's even worse. Look, it's like this: Do you want the rider doing all the "Racing" or do you want...
ABS...not much different than Traction Control. In-fact...it's even worse.

Look, it's like this: Do you want the rider doing all the "Racing" or do you want the BIKE doing it?

GO take a look at Moto GP and F1. They're REMOVING the "Operated by Computer" decals.

I say NO to ABS, Traction-Control, Chassis Control/Active Suspension...etc.

And, "YES!", that means REMOVING Kawi's "Start-Mode" from the KX450.

This is where someone chimes in about Digital Ignitions and Injection...all the while...they're STILL wrong. The Riders WRIST still makes all the decisions.
I agree. Back in the 70's F1 cars were going crazy with new technology. A lot of it is no longer used, new street bikes come with some amazing tech, but they are being removed for racing to keep the cost down. You have to keep it fair to the grass-roots riders and privateers who have to compete with factory teams that can acquire pretty much anything.

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