Final Words on 2 Stroke vs 4 Stroke

Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 12:00am
First, I'd like to say this. Everyone who called DC names and all the bad stuff posted about people and not the subject. You kinda screwed yourselves over. Yes, we can close the door on this subject as far as Pro AMA. That being said, I'd like to say, I understand DC's stance and why decisions are made. First, we all know that PC, FC etc and OEM's all have most of the say. DC's stance obviously is to start it out in things that are lower on the totem pole, and show them that it is fair. Thus, having it for womens, GNCC, LL and other things, shows he actually is fighting for the cause. Someday, maybe it will be in pro motocross and pro supercross. People who called him names are just as closed minded as the 4 stroke people that are closed minded like MX7MX. Thus, we are closing the door on one side. But I've always been told, when one door closes, the other opens.

SO, here goes. Anyone that has been fighting for the 2 stroke to live. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. I am going forward with something and will need your help. This obviously isn't easy, otherwise DC wouldn't be going crazy. Anyways, here is what I need from you. Find tracks that are of National Caliber, and that are not in the outdoor Pro AMA series. I have 0 want to compete against Pro AMA sports and MX Sports. Not for the competing reason many think, but I respect DC to much to try to sabatoge anything. My only goal here is to open doors that have been closed for so long. I know there are national type tracks in Texas, and other places. We can focus on 10 tracks is my initial plan. Here are the racing classes and basic rules. There will be much more to come, but this is just an info piece.
Here is my thoughts on all of this. This is a grand opportunity for companies and teams like Service Honda. There will be no initial Homo rules, so they would be a perfect fit along with TM, Husky etc. I will be trying to contact sponsors like that soon. With different classes, we may open a whole new avenue? Old school becoming new school is my first thought.
First, it will be run much like the Desnations. ProNMX Pro National MX. MX1, MX2, MX3 all mixed to race against eachother, points will be seperate.
classes. All things are open to change at a later date.
MX1 125cc 2 stroke and 200cc 4 strokes. These will be ages up to 19.
MX2 250cc 2 stroke and 350cc 4 stroke. Over bored 250F's are permitted
MX3 Open class above other cc class restrictions. Perfect for 500AF's, or bored 490cc 4 stroke Athena kits etc.
In between each race, there will be a 10 minute seperation race. It will have the following
100cc 2 stroke and 150cc 4 strokes 14-16 males plus, Pro Females, 144cc 2 stroke and stock 250cc 4 strokes. No internal mods on the 4 strokes. The benefits of 4 strokes for females probably outway any porting etc work of a 144cc 2 stroke. The top 20 of each will compete against eachother. 2 10 minute motos.
Via suggestion Tiki: some sort of clean race, IE: electric or maybe clean 2 stroke race.

Riders will be able to sell their own clothing lines. IE: like football, you buy Tony Romos jersey.


My other thoughts are that retired racers who are interested in racing pro, may come out. I will put up and be spreading info on the Pro license soon. $10 servicing fee is the only cost. We will not be charging Pro racers to race. The payouts will be as high as possible. But it obviously will have to grow. Always wondered the reason to charge a pro to race. It isn't like we charge Tony Romo to play football every week? Another rule, is protection will be manditory. Some sort of neck brace, even a donut. Saying someone could still get hurt, thus sue, doesn't sit well with me. Helmets are manditory, but we still see tons of head injuries. Back and front protectors will be manditory to help prevent injuries by flying motorcycles crashing into the fallen rider etc. 90 db sound on 4 strokes at 10,000 RPM and 92 db at 7,000 RPM 2 strokes. That will change to agree with a certain pipe company who is working with us, but just initial thoughts. We are going to kill a ton of birds with 1 stone. Sound, safety, parity.


Anyways, slam away. I've decided after all of these heated battles, it's time to put up or shut up. I will have the company started soon. So more info will follow.

Anyone interested in donating, helping etc, please contact me. admin@miedosoracing.com
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10/20/2009 7:56am
I am all for it and good luck but the 90Db at 10K...NO WAY. Is there even a company that makes a pipe that low? Isn't the FMF Q the quietest at 94db's? Even your 92db @ 7K for 2T's is going to be a bitch to get to.
10/20/2009 8:00am
Well, I figured I needed more info. I can go with something like the Q's info for numbers. I just didn't know where to start. I do know I want quiet bikes. But still can hear them. Just not a Nascar race.
txmxer
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10/20/2009 8:03am
interesting...and ballsy. Go big or go home.

Not sure I'm 100% in agreement with some of the concepts, but, to get back to a more pure racing sounds like a good idea.

10/20/2009 8:07am
txmxer wrote:
interesting...and ballsy. Go big or go home. Not sure I'm 100% in agreement with some of the concepts, but, to get back to a more pure...
interesting...and ballsy. Go big or go home.

Not sure I'm 100% in agreement with some of the concepts, but, to get back to a more pure racing sounds like a good idea.

Hey, I'm open to ideas. I'm not closed minded

The Shop

zookrider62!
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10/20/2009 8:18am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 2:50am
Sweet, finally a championship where I can race my bike
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bvm111
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10/20/2009 8:20am
I havent been there in over 5 years, but, Speedworld in Peoria, Arizona can be a National level track, they have hosted WORCS and also the old 4 Stroke National there at one time.

Good luck!
Crush
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10/20/2009 8:29am
The Topic heading makes me laugh...


As if it will be...
Torco1
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10/20/2009 8:34am
Competitve Edge and RaceTown 395 are more than capable of handling something like this.
10/20/2009 8:39am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2009 8:40am
Torco1 wrote:
Competitve Edge and RaceTown 395 are more than capable of handling something like this.
put cities, states and area down. Plus get contact info for me. Thanks
zookrider62!
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10/20/2009 8:41am
Torco1 wrote:
Competitve Edge and RaceTown 395 are more than capable of handling something like this.
put cities, states and area down. Plus get contact info for me. Thanks
lazy
Torco1
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10/20/2009 8:47am
Torco1 wrote:
Competitve Edge and RaceTown 395 are more than capable of handling something like this.
put cities, states and area down. Plus get contact info for me. Thanks
lazy
who's lazy?
flarider
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10/20/2009 8:49am
My other thoughts are that retired racers who are interested in racing pro, may come out. I will put up and be spreading info on the Pro license soon. $10 servicing fee is the only cost. We will not be charging Pro racers to race. The payouts will be as high as possible. But it obviously will have to grow. Always wondered the reason to charge a pro to race. It isn't like we charge Tony Romo to play football every week? Another rule, is protection will be manditory. Some sort of neck brace, even a donut. Saying someone could still get hurt, thus sue, doesn't sit well with me. Helmets are manditory, but we still see tons of head injuries. Back and front protectors will be manditory to help prevent injuries by flying motorcycles crashing into the fallen rider etc. 90 db sound on 4 strokes at 10,000 RPM and 92 db at 7,000 RPM 2 strokes. That will change to match, but initial thoughts. We are going to kill a ton of birds with 1 stone. Sound, safety, parity.


Pro sign up money (typically more than other classes) serves several purposes;
1) It proves the riders are not employees, and therefore removes any "employer" responsibility or insurance
2) Keeps riders who are not truly of a pro level from entering and endangering other faster pro riders on the track

As for the Leatt and comparing it to a helmet;
Helmets have testing standards, both independent and federal, as well as European and other national testing standards.
Neck braces have no such testing or standards.
Define "neck protection?" Is an EVS neck roll/pad (for example) acceptable? Why not? What standards are you using to define "neck protection" in order to accept or deny a product's usage? Are you willing to fight in court over what is and isn't allowable, considering there is no defining standard other than whatever you feel like making up as a standard, even though you have no testing data, independent or governmental, to back up your "feeling?"
If a rider is injured while wearing your mandated neck protection, which has no independent or governmental testing, standards or evaluations, who is responsible for that liability?
10/20/2009 8:54am
lazy
Torco1 wrote:
who's lazy?
miedos.
You are right, I have 3 companies and about to embark on something like this. I'm so lazy. Laughable. It's called getting some help from people who have put 9 zillion pages of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke, but then can't step up when it's time.
10/20/2009 8:58am
flarider wrote:
[i]My other thoughts are that retired racers who are interested in racing pro, may come out. I will put up and be spreading info on the...
My other thoughts are that retired racers who are interested in racing pro, may come out. I will put up and be spreading info on the Pro license soon. $10 servicing fee is the only cost. We will not be charging Pro racers to race. The payouts will be as high as possible. But it obviously will have to grow. Always wondered the reason to charge a pro to race. It isn't like we charge Tony Romo to play football every week? Another rule, is protection will be manditory. Some sort of neck brace, even a donut. Saying someone could still get hurt, thus sue, doesn't sit well with me. Helmets are manditory, but we still see tons of head injuries. Back and front protectors will be manditory to help prevent injuries by flying motorcycles crashing into the fallen rider etc. 90 db sound on 4 strokes at 10,000 RPM and 92 db at 7,000 RPM 2 strokes. That will change to match, but initial thoughts. We are going to kill a ton of birds with 1 stone. Sound, safety, parity.


Pro sign up money (typically more than other classes) serves several purposes;
1) It proves the riders are not employees, and therefore removes any "employer" responsibility or insurance
2) Keeps riders who are not truly of a pro level from entering and endangering other faster pro riders on the track

As for the Leatt and comparing it to a helmet;
Helmets have testing standards, both independent and federal, as well as European and other national testing standards.
Neck braces have no such testing or standards.
Define "neck protection?" Is an EVS neck roll/pad (for example) acceptable? Why not? What standards are you using to define "neck protection" in order to accept or deny a product's usage? Are you willing to fight in court over what is and isn't allowable, considering there is no defining standard other than whatever you feel like making up as a standard, even though you have no testing data, independent or governmental, to back up your "feeling?"
If a rider is injured while wearing your mandated neck protection, which has no independent or governmental testing, standards or evaluations, who is responsible for that liability?
Yes, that is interesting info. It was including any neck protection, ie EVS, Donuts, etc. Not just the leatt. All of the rules will have to be looked at further from lawyers etc. As far as the Pro level riders, seperating them doesn't come from money. It comes from past results. But the employee thing, may be info needed. Like I said from the beginning, this will be a new thing, so I'm going in with help from everyone. Thanks
Torco1
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10/20/2009 9:02am
Torco1 wrote:
Competitve Edge and RaceTown 395 are more than capable of handling something like this.
put cities, states and area down. Plus get contact info for me. Thanks
RaceTown 395 is near Adelanto, CA their main # is 760-246-6330. Mandi is in charge of all events/ promotions and her email is mandi@racetown395.com.

Competitive Edge is in Hesperia, CA and their # is 909-456-1070 and Kristen is in charge there, her email is Kristen@ridecemx.com.

Perris Raceway is in Perris, CA and I used to be neighbors with the owner before RJ and Tortelli bought is and he still keeps in tough with those two so I will see if there is any help he can give. But in the mean time their # is 951-657-7441 or stephtortelli@mac.com or PerrisRaceway@yahoo.com.

I'm going to PM you some names and numbers of some people that have some pull that should be able to help you out as well.


motogrady
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10/20/2009 9:03am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2009 10:26am


What happened to the guy that was in here a month or so ago that was gonna

do the same thing? 2 stroke Nationals that is. Maybe he found out how much it costs.



I have a feeling you're gonna find out the same thing. Unless you can raise money,

an art of it's own, it's a pipe dream.



The desNations concept is too confusing.

Half the people in moto still don't know how they score it, let alone the masses.



Trying to buddy up and not step on Coombs&Co is not realistic. He would be a competitor,a rival. He's not gonna want to share any of his plate. He's not gonna help you grow and prosper till you really are a threat. That's just business. Not seeing that tells me you're still a babe in the woods, thinking it's all about riding and having a good time with your buddies. When really it's about how many tickets you can sell.



I dunno, maybe a new set of tracks that could be rented for a grand each with twice that

in insurance, from some farmers, call BelRay, Klotz and Blendzall for some banners,

put up a schedule and let 'er rip. I'd come up with 500 bucks and put up with

15 or 20 other investors. I know where I could run a round in the Mid-Atlantic region.

But I'd wanna see 125, 250 and Open, cc to cc.



JustMX
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10/20/2009 9:03am
I kind of like the idea, but am concerned that it would be a little bit much to pull off in the current economy.

A couple observations:

Your sound restrictions may be a bit too restrictive until the event is established.

How are you going to cover event expenses without additional, 4 stroke support classes and youth classes for the masses? Wouldn't you want to have some incentive for non beleivers to come and observe while participating in some way?
zookrider62!
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10/20/2009 9:03am
Torco1 wrote:
who's lazy?
miedos.
You are right, I have 3 companies and about to embark on something like this. I'm so lazy. Laughable. It's called getting some help from people...
You are right, I have 3 companies and about to embark on something like this. I'm so lazy. Laughable. It's called getting some help from people who have put 9 zillion pages of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke, but then can't step up when it's time.
It is laughable to me that you are embarking on this but wont even look up a track when given information on it. A 2 second google search could get you the information you want, but you are dependent on others. This scares me on how dedicated you are to this.

As a side note, a neck-donut is merely for collar bones.
10/20/2009 9:12am
Crush wrote:
The Topic heading makes me laugh...


As if it will be...
5 pages minimum of final words.
10/20/2009 9:16am
motogrady wrote:
What happened to the guy that was in here a month or so ago that was gonnado the same thing? 2 stroke Nationals that is. Maybe...


What happened to the guy that was in here a month or so ago that was gonna

do the same thing? 2 stroke Nationals that is. Maybe he found out how much it costs.



I have a feeling you're gonna find out the same thing. Unless you can raise money,

an art of it's own, it's a pipe dream.



The desNations concept is too confusing.

Half the people in moto still don't know how they score it, let alone the masses.



Trying to buddy up and not step on Coombs&Co is not realistic. He would be a competitor,a rival. He's not gonna want to share any of his plate. He's not gonna help you grow and prosper till you really are a threat. That's just business. Not seeing that tells me you're still a babe in the woods, thinking it's all about riding and having a good time with your buddies. When really it's about how many tickets you can sell.



I dunno, maybe a new set of tracks that could be rented for a grand each with twice that

in insurance, from some farmers, call BelRay, Klotz and Blendzall for some banners,

put up a schedule and let 'er rip. I'd come up with 500 bucks and put up with

15 or 20 other investors. I know where I could run a round in the Mid-Atlantic region.

But I'd wanna see 125, 250 and Open, cc to cc.



The desnations mix team placings etc. This won't do that. It will just swap classes as far as racing goes. I do agree DC will not be happy, but there is a difference between trying to undermind him and compete in my opinion. I agree about the tickets we can sell. That is a large part of the reason I decided to have different tracks as well. How many people don't get a national, but aren't really wanting to drive 9 hours to watch one? Why would I want a cc for cc race. It would just alienated the opposite side. This whole reason we have been fighting, is for fairness. My numbers are fair on both sides. All the way from the 100cc 2 strokes to the 500cc 2 strokes. I could not do this even remotely by myself. I've been contacting for sponsors. No, I'm not lazy, like someone else posted. I've been sending out info to companies, teams etc. So finding tracks is the least of my worries at this moment
10/20/2009 9:19am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2009 9:22am
JustMX wrote:
I kind of like the idea, but am concerned that it would be a little bit much to pull off in the current economy. A couple...
I kind of like the idea, but am concerned that it would be a little bit much to pull off in the current economy.

A couple observations:

Your sound restrictions may be a bit too restrictive until the event is established.

How are you going to cover event expenses without additional, 4 stroke support classes and youth classes for the masses? Wouldn't you want to have some incentive for non beleivers to come and observe while participating in some way?
Well, think about it this way. Our economy is suffering from all the rich people right now that had all the power. Our industry is suffering the same way. I have a lot of ideas to bring more of the main stream people to our races. Again, this was just the initial thoughts. My goals would be a cheaper in, in the industry. Not a how much can I make, and screw the little newbies. We will just have to wait and see what company sponsors will step up. More info later.

I find it really funny all the people had the answers before hand. Now, only a few have stepped up. I have been getting emails. So this will go forward. Just waiting to see what sponsorships are in the works.
zookrider62!
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10/20/2009 9:20am
All im going to say is good luck
10/20/2009 9:35am
It is laughable to me that you are embarking on this but wont even look up a track when given information on it. A 2 second...
It is laughable to me that you are embarking on this but wont even look up a track when given information on it. A 2 second google search could get you the information you want, but you are dependent on others. This scares me on how dedicated you are to this.

As a side note, a neck-donut is merely for collar bones.
your side notE is incorrect... ive seen neck donuts do way more than just save collar bones....they do limit flexion to a certain degree thus reducing the risk of cercival damage maybe not as good as a leatte or A-star but i would argue better than nothing at all.... Cycle Ranch in Floresville Texas used to host a 4 stroke national id def add them to a possiblity list.... http://cycleranchmx.com/
Void Main
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10/20/2009 9:46am
Final words? Heh heh, yeah right. If I were doing it I would either go with a 125cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke), a 250cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke), and an Open class. Actually a better idea is to not have any cc or HP limits at all. Run whatever you want, may the best rider/bike win. I don't remember who it was that keeps suggesting that but the more I hear it the more it makes the most sense.
10/20/2009 9:48am
Rockcrawler, funny you posted those things. I actually had just pulled up Tyler Swan park and Cycle ranch to look into. Plus the neck donut is what I wear when riding. I would disagree that they do not help. I feel they are not as good as a Leatt, probably, but do feel they would cushion a head to the side crash.
10/20/2009 9:51am Edited Date/Time 10/20/2009 9:59am
Void Main wrote:
Final words? Heh heh, yeah right. If I were doing it I would either go with a 125cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke), a 250cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke)...
Final words? Heh heh, yeah right. If I were doing it I would either go with a 125cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke), a 250cc (2-Troke and 4-Troke), and an Open class. Actually a better idea is to not have any cc or HP limits at all. Run whatever you want, may the best rider/bike win. I don't remember who it was that keeps suggesting that but the more I hear it the more it makes the most sense.
It still has to do with sponsors and money. The fact that no one is standing up and "doing it" tells me where everything stands. Like I said initially. Put up or shut up. :-) Bush "You are either with us or against us."
Another thing to remember, is with sound, hp goes down. So the 350F for instance will be more comparable to the 250 2 stroke, because of that.
10/20/2009 10:34am
Rockcrawler, funny you posted those things. I actually had just pulled up Tyler Swan park and Cycle ranch to look into. Plus the neck donut is...
Rockcrawler, funny you posted those things. I actually had just pulled up Tyler Swan park and Cycle ranch to look into. Plus the neck donut is what I wear when riding. I would disagree that they do not help. I feel they are not as good as a Leatt, probably, but do feel they would cushion a head to the side crash.
yea i agree with you on the neck roll as i wear an EVS RC2 and ive seen the neck "rolls" work miracles in crashes so yes a neck roll is better than nothing.... you might also try to contact TSR http://texasskiranch.com/ in new braunfels ... they have a track that used to be fun but have since closed it down... this may be the opportunity they are needing to open the track back up

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