Dungey > Roczen

barrs211
Posts
350
Joined
4/16/2012
Location
GB
Edited Date/Time 7/12/2012 3:55pm
After looking through some pictures (well alot) can see a huge difference in roczens riding style from 2011 GP to now. Before he was more attacking and aggressive, were as now he has a dungey style thats more relaxed looking and calm.
Also if you look at when he came and did the few supercross rounds in 2011 to his supercross season this year he scrub everything style has also disappeared..
Kinda miss his aggressive style!

Anyone else notice?
|
barrs211
Posts
350
Joined
4/16/2012
Location
GB
7/11/2012 12:47am
What i was trying to say was do you see the resemblance between the two? and maybe a future dungey in rozen? (if you get what im saying)
PressPassP
Posts
3329
Joined
3/3/2010
Location
Ipswich GB
7/11/2012 2:48am
To me he doesn't look to be charging,letting it all hang out etc,

Mind you,hearing the bikes,they seem to be on the gas a lot more,Barcia's often on the revlimiter again,there are much longer straights and bends that have big sweeping outside lines that enable high speeds to kept up ,sections that require pure horsepower compared with the more technical and challenging(in a diferrent way) GP tracks,track surfaces don't differ like in Europe too where many require a more varied riding style.Roczen looks to have a similar style each week,he does indeed look more like Dungey that in the past
7/11/2012 3:01am
Idk that's tricky to say for sure. Obviously he looked better last year because he was winning. With that said I don't think his fitness is as good as it should be, for where he is now.

Obviously only he knows for sure, so if that's completely wrong then my apologies to Ken. But if you think back to certain motos this year... the 2nd motos at Highpoint and Budds Creek for instance - it looked as if he had very little left on each occasion. A lack of fitness will undoubtedly limit his performance and aggression. He did get injured before SX and then had a tough time dealing with arm pump (due to the injury) throughout the season, so obviously he lost a bit of time there.

On top of that I think the difference in tracks and subsequent riding style is hurting him to. A GP is more of a marathon across slower, technical tracks. Whereas the AMA is wide open for 30 mins across very fast tracks. As a viewer that's what I see at least.I remember Marc De Reuver getting knackered at Southwick in 08 (despite the fact he can ride 2x 40 mins round Lommel) because the pace is flat out right from the get go. If you tried to ride Lommel like that, you'd probably crash out in less than a lap.

The Shop

matrixlee
Posts
142
Joined
9/23/2010
Location
GB
7/11/2012 3:54am
i think i remember reading some where that the ama tracks are on average 10mph faster than in europe
ocscottie
Posts
69092
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Redding, CA US
7/11/2012 4:34am
We have been over this a couple times and for what it is worth, here is my take:

Seems his style started to change a bit last year, 2011 when he won the MX2 title. He seemed to smooth out quite a bit and we saw more of him on the pegs and technically more precise than in 2010 on the Suz when he was a bit of a "wild child". Maybe it was some of Everts influence? dont know.

Remember all those fully gnar right on the limit scrubs back on the RMZ?



Love this one:


It is probably for the better that he has smoothed out and become more precise, that young "wild child" kid in 2010 prob would of had a tough time finishing a SX series. Dont get me wrong, he still throws em down Wink



Maybe we are just seeing him grow up and mature as not only a rider, but a young man. At least thats how i see it, and im sure many other people have seen him ride a LOT more earlier in his career than i have and i could be totally off base...regardless, i think he is doing just fine. He is battling one of the deepest 250 fields we have seen in years.

Go Kenny!!! Laughing

btw: wtf kind of thread title is "Dungey > Roczen" ? If anything i think it would do Kenny a lot of good to go hang out and train with Dunge for awhile. Hard to find a harder worker than RD.
ocscottie
Posts
69092
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Redding, CA US
7/11/2012 4:39am
One more thing that i dont think many people over here that dont closely follow the GP's grasp is just how different the scheduling is. Hell at a GP w/ practice / quali's on Saturday and racing on Sunday, a rider has practically an HOUR of time on the track before even the 1st moto gate drops!

Over here they hardly have 1/4 of that! so adding it to learning the new tracks makes a huge difference, just give Kenny a little time...

...and with that you have my insomnia induced ramble for the night...err..uhhh...i mean morning? im a mess lol Dizzy
ocscottie
Posts
69092
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Redding, CA US
7/11/2012 4:45am
...and ill toss in one more awesome pic just for good measure Whistling

tns
Posts
463
Joined
9/30/2008
Location
Dartford GB
7/11/2012 4:50am
i am glad kenny has smoothed it out and think if he hadn't he would be just another champ that came over from europe got injured and didn't live up the hype.He has shown he can win outdoors IF he stays on board,sometimes you have to slow down to go faster,he is on a learning curve and is learning well
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
7/11/2012 5:06am
Not sure I see any difference myself.

He's just one or two places back from where he usually was last year thats all.
Barrett57
Posts
2270
Joined
8/31/2010
Location
GB
7/11/2012 7:04am Edited Date/Time 7/11/2012 7:05am
I was stood at the fence of the British GP last year and he looked smooth as silk.

Can't really see the difference.
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
7/11/2012 7:36am
I know this, his ass looks beat on the podium interviews. Wonder if that underpowered overweight 231 pound pig of a 250F has anything to do with it?




Tongue
ehr400
Posts
2629
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Britton, MI US
7/11/2012 7:39am
Remember Barcia was scrubbing everything like crazy when he first turned pro too? He doesnt do it unless needed now. Same with Trey Canard. Hell even Stewart toned it down. I would think it takes up energy and when you are at the end of a moto needing to dig deep the energy is there instead of throwing sick scrubs int he first 4 laps.
Huckster
Posts
2585
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Woodstock , NY US
7/11/2012 9:03am
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that pace? crazy, complex theory I know, so just throwing it out there for debate...
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
7/11/2012 9:39am
He's just at that point that a lot of fast guys have been at. When RC moved up to the big bikes, he realized pretty quick that something had to change.

https://youtu.be/bemM2HBGk88
7/11/2012 9:47am
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites class. Roczen only wins the Lites class when he races GP. Not trying to start crap with that last statement but it is 100% true.
Asher
Posts
287
Joined
2/27/2010
Location
GB
7/11/2012 9:55am
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites...
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites class. Roczen only wins the Lites class when he races GP. Not trying to start crap with that last statement but it is 100% true.
pretty sure dungey didn't dominate the lites class
newmann
Posts
24438
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
7/11/2012 10:09am
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites...
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites class. Roczen only wins the Lites class when he races GP. Not trying to start crap with that last statement but it is 100% true.
Asher wrote:
pretty sure dungey didn't dominate the lites class
Didn't Dungey have some issues with JLaw?Laughing

As long as Kenny doesn't bite someones ear off or whack them in the head with a 22mm socket in a sock, he'll probably be just fine. I do wonder if KRoc could do a scrub in the Red Bull bus better than JLaw did with the Monster motorhome?? Where's that pic?
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
7/11/2012 10:16am
I think your bang on with that assessment above Newman.

Aldon Baker is playing a big part in this I think.
johansen
Posts
551
Joined
10/30/2009
Location
MG
7/12/2012 1:51am
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites...
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites class. Roczen only wins the Lites class when he races GP. Not trying to start crap with that last statement but it is 100% true.
2007 and 2008 he didn't have much for Villopoto. 2009 he was battling with Pourcel all season long and got the points lead after Pourcel's bike gave up on him at Southwick.
burnside
Posts
4095
Joined
6/17/2009
Location
London US
7/12/2012 2:46am
Huckster wrote:
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that...
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that pace? crazy, complex theory I know, so just throwing it out there for debate...
Crazy, complex theory. . . but maybe the fact he's had 30 minutes expeirence on each track before the gate drops comes into play too?

(*I say 30 mins, not sure exactly how much practise they get but I know its not much).
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
7/12/2012 2:56am
15 mins practice, 15 mins times qualifying, with no base settings from previous years.
PressPassP
Posts
3329
Joined
3/3/2010
Location
Ipswich GB
7/12/2012 3:17am
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites...
My thoughts exactly. And I'm sorry but Roczen is a LONG way from becoming the next Dungey. Dungey was dominating when he was in the Lites class. Roczen only wins the Lites class when he races GP. Not trying to start crap with that last statement but it is 100% true.
johansen wrote:
2007 and 2008 he didn't have much for Villopoto. 2009 he was battling with Pourcel all season long and got the points lead after Pourcel's bike...
2007 and 2008 he didn't have much for Villopoto. 2009 he was battling with Pourcel all season long and got the points lead after Pourcel's bike gave up on him at Southwick.
Indeed Dungey never dominated,he always had his hands full,and actually he wasn't winning so much in the end when still in Europe,he's dropped his game a little,even after the first round
Huckster
Posts
2585
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Woodstock , NY US
7/12/2012 3:52am
Huckster wrote:
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that...
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that pace? crazy, complex theory I know, so just throwing it out there for debate...
burnside wrote:
Crazy, complex theory. . . but maybe the fact he's had 30 minutes expeirence on each track before the gate drops comes into play too? (*I...
Crazy, complex theory. . . but maybe the fact he's had 30 minutes expeirence on each track before the gate drops comes into play too?

(*I say 30 mins, not sure exactly how much practise they get but I know its not much).
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track before and spent as much if not more time on there than Blake did. Baggett has only raced 1 more yr so you're trying to tell me that the extra 30 min of practice gives him a huge advantage?

Maybe just maybe Ken is riding at his peak and there is nothing wrong but yet it is not good enough to win an overall? I know, can't be possible because he is a WORLD CHAMP and "Fastest lites rider in the WORLD."

carry on....
PressPassP
Posts
3329
Joined
3/3/2010
Location
Ipswich GB
7/12/2012 4:28am
Huckster wrote:
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that...
or maybe he just has come up against guys who are faster and in better shape and he is not used to having to run that pace? crazy, complex theory I know, so just throwing it out there for debate...
burnside wrote:
Crazy, complex theory. . . but maybe the fact he's had 30 minutes expeirence on each track before the gate drops comes into play too? (*I...
Crazy, complex theory. . . but maybe the fact he's had 30 minutes expeirence on each track before the gate drops comes into play too?

(*I say 30 mins, not sure exactly how much practise they get but I know its not much).
Huckster wrote:
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track...
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track before and spent as much if not more time on there than Blake did. Baggett has only raced 1 more yr so you're trying to tell me that the extra 30 min of practice gives him a huge advantage?

Maybe just maybe Ken is riding at his peak and there is nothing wrong but yet it is not good enough to win an overall? I know, can't be possible because he is a WORLD CHAMP and "Fastest lites rider in the WORLD."

carry on....
As Villopoto says,no top American has gone and done the World Championship so its very hard to compare the levels,I'll take his view over yours personally

I still think he's off his game a click

Answer me this,,do you think Roczen is the same rider that raced in Europe last,at the MXdN where he raced Dungey and Villopoto etc,same level,Yes or No?
machine
Posts
6404
Joined
1/5/2011
Location
Collettsville, NC US
7/12/2012 4:33am
Newman nailed it...Red Bulls can't carry you all the way to the top.
Huckster
Posts
2585
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Woodstock , NY US
7/12/2012 4:37am Edited Date/Time 7/12/2012 4:40am
Yes I do, and I just think that Baggett and Barcia are better and Tomac and now Musquin are on the same pace. He wasn't being pushed over there and now its a whole different ball game....

Ok on what RV said, but this is straight from the horses mouth from a guy who has....Marvin Musquin from a MXA interview :Didn’t you push that intensity when you raced in Europe?
In Europe I was leading races and I wasn’t pushing as hard as I have to here in the U.S. Over here there is more intensity and the guys are a little bit faster here than in Europe. I do think that Tommy Searle and Jeffrey Herlings would be fast here. However, I never pushed that hard in Europe. I need to work on my intensity.
ity.
ayearinmx
Posts
2760
Joined
3/5/2007
Location
GB
7/12/2012 5:13am
Huckster wrote:
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track...
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track before and spent as much if not more time on there than Blake did. Baggett has only raced 1 more yr so you're trying to tell me that the extra 30 min of practice gives him a huge advantage?

Maybe just maybe Ken is riding at his peak and there is nothing wrong but yet it is not good enough to win an overall? I know, can't be possible because he is a WORLD CHAMP and "Fastest lites rider in the WORLD."

carry on....
1 more year than Ken??? Might want to check back through the results again... hint: do a search for "Baggett"

2009 - 250 Points
2010 - 250 Points
2011 - 250 Points

Facts are, Baggett didn't win the title in his rookie year (or even his actual first full season), Eli Tomac didn't win the championship in his, Justin Barcia still hasn't won an MX title, Dean Wilson didn't win his title in the first year... and yet Roczen is expected to? On a bike that has never completed in half the rounds?

wow, you must really value the World Championship, if you believe he can do something that American natives, and long-term citizens can't do
jamma10
Posts
10573
Joined
8/24/2008
Location
Bristol GB
7/12/2012 5:21am
I think Baggett and Barcia are a step above at the moment, but thats because they have all the pieces in place. What we're seeing this season is the result of three years worth of preparation.

The fitness factor (i.e Aldon Baker) is certainly a major one and thats what Ken is struggling with most - and what Musquin is alluding to in that comment above. Until now Ken has simply relied on his natural, youthful fitness to get by but Baggett, at 20 or whatever he is now, has learnt that this isn't enough and has employed arguably the best trainer of them all.

No one can deny that all three top Americans have vastly improved since last season, which happens with experience and the right preparation.
Huckster
Posts
2585
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Woodstock , NY US
7/12/2012 5:36am
Huckster wrote:
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track...
another one of many excuses....how did he do at Colorado? Remember the track that he had dominated the MXoN on? He had been on that track before and spent as much if not more time on there than Blake did. Baggett has only raced 1 more yr so you're trying to tell me that the extra 30 min of practice gives him a huge advantage?

Maybe just maybe Ken is riding at his peak and there is nothing wrong but yet it is not good enough to win an overall? I know, can't be possible because he is a WORLD CHAMP and "Fastest lites rider in the WORLD."

carry on....
ayearinmx wrote:
1 more year than Ken??? Might want to check back through the results again... hint: do a search for "Baggett" [url=http://amapromail.com/pdfresults/mx/2009/12-delmont/250_points.pdf]2009 - 250 Points[/url] [url=http://results.mxsportsproracing.com/data/2010/12/250_points.pdf]2010 -...
1 more year than Ken??? Might want to check back through the results again... hint: do a search for "Baggett"

2009 - 250 Points
2010 - 250 Points
2011 - 250 Points

Facts are, Baggett didn't win the title in his rookie year (or even his actual first full season), Eli Tomac didn't win the championship in his, Justin Barcia still hasn't won an MX title, Dean Wilson didn't win his title in the first year... and yet Roczen is expected to? On a bike that has never completed in half the rounds?

wow, you must really value the World Championship, if you believe he can do something that American natives, and long-term citizens can't do
Baggett didnt race CO. in 2009 did he? You must also not read very well either. I never said he wasn't doing well. I think he is doing awesome, but that wasn't the discussion. The discussion is, is he riding as well as he did last year and my opinion is that he is but Baggett and Barcia and Tomac are just faster. NO knock on Ken. He is having a very good year so far and I expect him to win soon if he can get in better shape.

My point is that GP apologist like you can't even phathom that maybe there are guys who are faster than him. It's ridiculous to think that maybe he is riding as good or better but that it's just not good enough so far. Even Musquin who has had MORE success in the GP's says that the pace is faster and more intense, yet, you all have to try to justify his lack of a win. Plus we are not talking about a "rookie" here. He is a WORLD CHAMP and has been riding the GP"s for what 3 years? I would hardly call him a "rookie." And Yes, I do value a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. Its a great achivement and a stepping stone to the big leagues for most.....

Post a reply to: Dungey > Roczen

The Latest