Chinese quality revisited

3strokemx
Posts
2957
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9/2/2010
Location
USA
8/29/2026 10:12am
Your google account is "free" because you sign over all privacy expectations to them when you sign up. They take all info coming in and out...

Your google account is "free" because you sign over all privacy expectations to them when you sign up. They take all info coming in and out of your account and compile it to sell to advertisers for targeted ads. You are definitely paying, just not with your money. 

3strokemx wrote:

If you think paying a fee for cloud storage gives you privacy, I've got some bad news for you..........

That was never stated and out of context. 

Is it possible to take something out of context if it was never stated?

1
Tyler D
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Location
La, CA, USA
8/29/2026 11:54am
Pop Shmoke wrote:

Looks like brian hsu is racing some super obscure chinese bike at the china mxgp. 

 

God protect him!

even running Ping's number. the universe has a sense of humor. 

 

I'm not going to lie to you: This is a painful story. - Racer X Online

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1
Tiki
Posts
10655
Joined
8/1/2006
Location
Corona, CA, USA
Fantasy
8/29/2026 2:31pm
Tiki wrote:
I wasn't sure if you were trolling or just working with out of date numbers. But your position about paying a fee for cloud services. You...

I wasn't sure if you were trolling or just working with out of date numbers. But your position about paying a fee for cloud services. You have no news. 

Cloud service as a business in a simple search: It is currently $1 Trillion dollars per year, world wide. This is AWS, MS Azure, Google Cloud, Oracle and other companies selling servers and storage for a total of $500 billion per year. Then adding MS365, Salesforce, Adobe CC, Dropbox bringing in another $850 Billion. Apple rounds it out with $109 billion in total sales in 2025.  Which included: App Store, advertising, AppleCare, Apple Music, Apple TV+, payments and iCloud. And yes, paid service comes with contractual obligation of privacy to a certain extent. Then there is the people that build the Data Centers and lease the facilities to the above, they are worth around $300 Billion a year. There's a few clams being traded. 

Aussie, Surveillance here in America is about 1% total usage space and AI is about 8%. Its mostly streaming. I can't speak for Australia or UK where surveillance is much more prevalent. You are spot on with desktop AI boxes. NVIDIA has been working on Desktop LLM's for a while and has come to market with a $3500 desktop AI solution. https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/products/workstations/dgx-station/

3strokemx wrote:
You asserted that individuals' demand for cloud storage is creating demand for Data Centers. I suggested that was not true since cloud storage for individuals is already...

You asserted that individuals' demand for cloud storage is creating demand for Data Centers. 

I suggested that was not true since cloud storage for individuals is already essentially free. Showing the free market dynamics that supply overwhelms demand.

You tried to pivot by saying cloud service for business is a Trillion dollar industry (implying the magnitude equates to demand)
However, it's not a trillion dollar industry from the free market, it's a trillion dollar industry primarily because governments giver our money to contractors.  As a similar example, reducing atmoshperic Carbon is a Multi-Trillion dollar industry.



Also you keep telling me I'm not looking things up and that means I'm uninformed.  To the contrary, the industry I work in has a big rise in demand because of data center construction.  It's raising our costs across the board because the established manufacturing markets don't produce enough raw materials to meet supply. I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   

“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”

Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased dramatically since 2021, and I provided numbers supporting that. I found those facts through simple searches and shared them. If your argument is that increased demand for cloud storage contributes to demand for data centers, then yes, that is also accurate. SaaS, cloud computing, storage and streaming have all exploded over the past five years. Demand has increased. That is not an assertion. It is a fact.

Your claim that individual cloud storage is “essentially free” does not demonstrate that supply overwhelms demand. It means the user is not always paying directly. Free Google accounts are supported by advertising, data-driven services and paid upgrades. The storage still requires servers, facilities, electricity, cooling, networking, maintenance and employees. Free to the individual does not mean free to provide.

“You tried to pivot by saying cloud services for businesses are a trillion-dollar industry.”

I didn’t pivot. You sarcastically asked, “How much does a Google account cost these days?” Well, that depends. Are you using the free service? Then advertising and the broader Google business model are paying for it: https://fourweekmba.com/google-revenue-breakdown/ See above. Are you paying for Google Workspace? https://workspace.google.com/pricing Then there is AWS: https://aws.amazon.com/pricing/ And Microsoft Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/calculator

These companies sell computing power, storage, databases, software and other cloud services to businesses of every size. Saying the entire industry exists primarily because governments give money to contractors does not make that true. Comparing it to carbon-reduction spending doesn’t establish it either.

You are trying to disprove a point I never made while offering claims of your own without supporting them.

I don’t know what you do for a living. Personally, I have worked with some form of web services since 1995, so much of this has been part of my day-to-day experience for more than 30 years. I provided the information, invited you to check it and asked you to show me where it was wrong.

I also wrote this in an earlier post:

“While not everything is astronomically expensive, the data-center boom has clearly affected the industry and the broader economy. It is creating high-paying jobs and massive investment in construction, equipment and power, but it is also raising the cost of land, labor, electricity and the hardware everyone else needs.”

Now you are telling me that your own industry is experiencing increased demand because of data-center construction. You say it is raising costs across the board because established manufacturing markets cannot produce enough raw materials to meet demand.  That doesn’t contradict me. That is precisely what I said. You are repeating my argument and supporting it with your own day-to-day experience.

So, thank you. We agree.

2
3strokemx
Posts
2957
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9/2/2010
Location
USA
8/29/2026 7:27pm
Tiki wrote:
“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased...

“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”

Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased dramatically since 2021, and I provided numbers supporting that. I found those facts through simple searches and shared them. If your argument is that increased demand for cloud storage contributes to demand for data centers, then yes, that is also accurate. SaaS, cloud computing, storage and streaming have all exploded over the past five years. Demand has increased. That is not an assertion. It is a fact.

Your claim that individual cloud storage is “essentially free” does not demonstrate that supply overwhelms demand. It means the user is not always paying directly. Free Google accounts are supported by advertising, data-driven services and paid upgrades. The storage still requires servers, facilities, electricity, cooling, networking, maintenance and employees. Free to the individual does not mean free to provide.

“You tried to pivot by saying cloud services for businesses are a trillion-dollar industry.”

I didn’t pivot. You sarcastically asked, “How much does a Google account cost these days?” Well, that depends. Are you using the free service? Then advertising and the broader Google business model are paying for it: https://fourweekmba.com/google-revenue-breakdown/ See above. Are you paying for Google Workspace? https://workspace.google.com/pricing Then there is AWS: https://aws.amazon.com/pricing/ And Microsoft Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/calculator

These companies sell computing power, storage, databases, software and other cloud services to businesses of every size. Saying the entire industry exists primarily because governments give money to contractors does not make that true. Comparing it to carbon-reduction spending doesn’t establish it either.

You are trying to disprove a point I never made while offering claims of your own without supporting them.

I don’t know what you do for a living. Personally, I have worked with some form of web services since 1995, so much of this has been part of my day-to-day experience for more than 30 years. I provided the information, invited you to check it and asked you to show me where it was wrong.

I also wrote this in an earlier post:

“While not everything is astronomically expensive, the data-center boom has clearly affected the industry and the broader economy. It is creating high-paying jobs and massive investment in construction, equipment and power, but it is also raising the cost of land, labor, electricity and the hardware everyone else needs.”

Now you are telling me that your own industry is experiencing increased demand because of data-center construction. You say it is raising costs across the board because established manufacturing markets cannot produce enough raw materials to meet demand.  That doesn’t contradict me. That is precisely what I said. You are repeating my argument and supporting it with your own day-to-day experience.

So, thank you. We agree.

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

1

The Shop

thewrizzle
Posts
502
Joined
4/27/2018
Location
Rochester, WA, USA
8/29/2026 8:30pm
Tiki wrote:
“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased...

“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”

Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased dramatically since 2021, and I provided numbers supporting that. I found those facts through simple searches and shared them. If your argument is that increased demand for cloud storage contributes to demand for data centers, then yes, that is also accurate. SaaS, cloud computing, storage and streaming have all exploded over the past five years. Demand has increased. That is not an assertion. It is a fact.

Your claim that individual cloud storage is “essentially free” does not demonstrate that supply overwhelms demand. It means the user is not always paying directly. Free Google accounts are supported by advertising, data-driven services and paid upgrades. The storage still requires servers, facilities, electricity, cooling, networking, maintenance and employees. Free to the individual does not mean free to provide.

“You tried to pivot by saying cloud services for businesses are a trillion-dollar industry.”

I didn’t pivot. You sarcastically asked, “How much does a Google account cost these days?” Well, that depends. Are you using the free service? Then advertising and the broader Google business model are paying for it: https://fourweekmba.com/google-revenue-breakdown/ See above. Are you paying for Google Workspace? https://workspace.google.com/pricing Then there is AWS: https://aws.amazon.com/pricing/ And Microsoft Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/calculator

These companies sell computing power, storage, databases, software and other cloud services to businesses of every size. Saying the entire industry exists primarily because governments give money to contractors does not make that true. Comparing it to carbon-reduction spending doesn’t establish it either.

You are trying to disprove a point I never made while offering claims of your own without supporting them.

I don’t know what you do for a living. Personally, I have worked with some form of web services since 1995, so much of this has been part of my day-to-day experience for more than 30 years. I provided the information, invited you to check it and asked you to show me where it was wrong.

I also wrote this in an earlier post:

“While not everything is astronomically expensive, the data-center boom has clearly affected the industry and the broader economy. It is creating high-paying jobs and massive investment in construction, equipment and power, but it is also raising the cost of land, labor, electricity and the hardware everyone else needs.”

Now you are telling me that your own industry is experiencing increased demand because of data-center construction. You say it is raising costs across the board because established manufacturing markets cannot produce enough raw materials to meet demand.  That doesn’t contradict me. That is precisely what I said. You are repeating my argument and supporting it with your own day-to-day experience.

So, thank you. We agree.

3strokemx wrote:
Why do you think supply is currently constrained? The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.The facts you...

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

Supply IS constrained. These hyper scale data centers can’t be built fast enough.

1
AussieParaMX
Posts
1708
Joined
7/30/2009
Location
Mount Waverley, VIC, AU
8/29/2026 10:51pm
Tiki wrote:
“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased...

“You asserted that individuals’ demand for cloud storage is creating demand for data centers.”

Incorrect. I showed that the number of users and online services has increased dramatically since 2021, and I provided numbers supporting that. I found those facts through simple searches and shared them. If your argument is that increased demand for cloud storage contributes to demand for data centers, then yes, that is also accurate. SaaS, cloud computing, storage and streaming have all exploded over the past five years. Demand has increased. That is not an assertion. It is a fact.

Your claim that individual cloud storage is “essentially free” does not demonstrate that supply overwhelms demand. It means the user is not always paying directly. Free Google accounts are supported by advertising, data-driven services and paid upgrades. The storage still requires servers, facilities, electricity, cooling, networking, maintenance and employees. Free to the individual does not mean free to provide.

“You tried to pivot by saying cloud services for businesses are a trillion-dollar industry.”

I didn’t pivot. You sarcastically asked, “How much does a Google account cost these days?” Well, that depends. Are you using the free service? Then advertising and the broader Google business model are paying for it: https://fourweekmba.com/google-revenue-breakdown/ See above. Are you paying for Google Workspace? https://workspace.google.com/pricing Then there is AWS: https://aws.amazon.com/pricing/ And Microsoft Azure: https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/pricing/calculator

These companies sell computing power, storage, databases, software and other cloud services to businesses of every size. Saying the entire industry exists primarily because governments give money to contractors does not make that true. Comparing it to carbon-reduction spending doesn’t establish it either.

You are trying to disprove a point I never made while offering claims of your own without supporting them.

I don’t know what you do for a living. Personally, I have worked with some form of web services since 1995, so much of this has been part of my day-to-day experience for more than 30 years. I provided the information, invited you to check it and asked you to show me where it was wrong.

I also wrote this in an earlier post:

“While not everything is astronomically expensive, the data-center boom has clearly affected the industry and the broader economy. It is creating high-paying jobs and massive investment in construction, equipment and power, but it is also raising the cost of land, labor, electricity and the hardware everyone else needs.”

Now you are telling me that your own industry is experiencing increased demand because of data-center construction. You say it is raising costs across the board because established manufacturing markets cannot produce enough raw materials to meet demand.  That doesn’t contradict me. That is precisely what I said. You are repeating my argument and supporting it with your own day-to-day experience.

So, thank you. We agree.

3strokemx wrote:
Why do you think supply is currently constrained? The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.The facts you...

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

thewrizzle wrote:

Supply IS constrained. These hyper scale data centers can’t be built fast enough.

Fast enough for what? 

Nearly all LLM uses could be done locally on a macbook or sold as a $200 local AI box… 


The hyperscales data centres are only needed for two reason.  1/ expanding the US’s surveillance state and 2/ manufacturing a sense of ‘demand’ so the companies dont crash to zero. Which is why every second week theres a claim of AI breaking containment to show its ‘power’ and every other week a new unsubstantiated claim of their future income levels…


Its all a fugazi

2
1
Tiki
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Location
Corona, CA, USA
Fantasy
8/30/2026 12:03am Edited Date/Time 8/30/2026 12:45am
Fast enough for what? Nearly all LLM uses could be done locally on a macbook or sold as a $200 local AI box… The hyperscales data centres are...

Fast enough for what? 

Nearly all LLM uses could be done locally on a macbook or sold as a $200 local AI box… 


The hyperscales data centres are only needed for two reason.  1/ expanding the US’s surveillance state and 2/ manufacturing a sense of ‘demand’ so the companies dont crash to zero. Which is why every second week theres a claim of AI breaking containment to show its ‘power’ and every other week a new unsubstantiated claim of their future income levels…


Its all a fugazi

The hyperscales data centres are only needed for two reason.  1/ expanding the US’s surveillance state and 2/ manufacturing a sense of ‘demand’ so the companies dont crash to zero. Which is why every second week theres a claim of AI breaking containment to show its ‘power’ and every other week a new unsubstantiated claim of their future income levels…  

This is where you lose me. The surveillance state is not being built through hyperscale data centers in America. That already done.  NSA in Maryland  and the Utah Data Center which opened in 2014. I did the math for you, combined its 7.8 Million sqft, OR 724,650 sq meters.(holy shit) Flock cameras are tiny by comparison to the total data center capacity.

Yes, you can run an LLM on a $200 Apple it is so slow compared to the Web AI connections. Like riding a 110 over a SX track. Can be done, but hell man. 

1
1
Tiki
Posts
10655
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Location
Corona, CA, USA
Fantasy
8/30/2026 12:43am
3strokemx wrote:
Why do you think supply is currently constrained? The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.The facts you...

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

 I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   

You’re an interesting sort. You claim to understand the entire market because you see one part of it in your day-to-day work, yet you refuse to look beyond it. Every time someone orders an Uber, joins a Zoom meeting, streams a movie, edits a photo through Adobe, shops on Amazon or orders motorcycle parts from Rocky Mountain ATV/MC, they are connecting to a data center. Over the years the demand has increased. 

Online (one day) Black Friday spending:
2015: $2.74 billion
2025: $11.8 billion

Does this help illustrate how it could be constrained? As you said: "The internet existed before data centers." That is a 331% increase. Overall inflation from 2015 to 2025 was stated at 36%

Perhaps you’re looking at the construction boom and thinking, This is just construction demand. Government incentives and speculative investment are absolutely contributing to the speed of construction. That does not mean the underlying demand is imaginary. Both things can be true.

This all comes back to the statement. "Complaining about data centers while using the internet that runs through a data center to post said comment is a little bit ironic" I hope this helps you see the irony. 

1
3strokemx
Posts
2957
Joined
9/2/2010
Location
USA
8/30/2026 5:01am
3strokemx wrote:
Why do you think supply is currently constrained? The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.The facts you...

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

Tiki wrote:
 I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   You’re an interesting sort. You claim to understand the entire market...

 I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   

You’re an interesting sort. You claim to understand the entire market because you see one part of it in your day-to-day work, yet you refuse to look beyond it. Every time someone orders an Uber, joins a Zoom meeting, streams a movie, edits a photo through Adobe, shops on Amazon or orders motorcycle parts from Rocky Mountain ATV/MC, they are connecting to a data center. Over the years the demand has increased. 

Online (one day) Black Friday spending:
2015: $2.74 billion
2025: $11.8 billion

Does this help illustrate how it could be constrained? As you said: "The internet existed before data centers." That is a 331% increase. Overall inflation from 2015 to 2025 was stated at 36%

Perhaps you’re looking at the construction boom and thinking, This is just construction demand. Government incentives and speculative investment are absolutely contributing to the speed of construction. That does not mean the underlying demand is imaginary. Both things can be true.

This all comes back to the statement. "Complaining about data centers while using the internet that runs through a data center to post said comment is a little bit ironic" I hope this helps you see the irony. 

It's only ironic if you believe there's not enough data to go around.  

Again, why would you believe that if all of your data needs are met for essentially no cost?

Ask your AI to tell you the current maximum data capacity in the US.  It should be on everyones' radar if supply is constrained enough that it necesitate building 100x the infrastructure.

2
Tiki
Posts
10655
Joined
8/1/2006
Location
Corona, CA, USA
Fantasy
8/30/2026 9:38am
3strokemx wrote:
Why do you think supply is currently constrained? The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.The facts you...

Why do you think supply is currently constrained? 

The demand I see is for the construction of data centers, not demand for increased data supply.
The facts you shared show usage is increasing, but don't show supply is constrained. 


All other markets where the consumer is not directly paying is because there is higher supply than demand OR govt money has influenced demand.    
Why would this be any different?



 

Tiki wrote:
 I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   You’re an interesting sort. You claim to understand the entire market...

 I don't need to look anything up to see that, it's my day to day.   

You’re an interesting sort. You claim to understand the entire market because you see one part of it in your day-to-day work, yet you refuse to look beyond it. Every time someone orders an Uber, joins a Zoom meeting, streams a movie, edits a photo through Adobe, shops on Amazon or orders motorcycle parts from Rocky Mountain ATV/MC, they are connecting to a data center. Over the years the demand has increased. 

Online (one day) Black Friday spending:
2015: $2.74 billion
2025: $11.8 billion

Does this help illustrate how it could be constrained? As you said: "The internet existed before data centers." That is a 331% increase. Overall inflation from 2015 to 2025 was stated at 36%

Perhaps you’re looking at the construction boom and thinking, This is just construction demand. Government incentives and speculative investment are absolutely contributing to the speed of construction. That does not mean the underlying demand is imaginary. Both things can be true.

This all comes back to the statement. "Complaining about data centers while using the internet that runs through a data center to post said comment is a little bit ironic" I hope this helps you see the irony. 

3strokemx wrote:
It's only ironic if you believe there's not enough data to go around.  Again, why would you believe that if all of your data needs are...

It's only ironic if you believe there's not enough data to go around.  

Again, why would you believe that if all of your data needs are met for essentially no cost?

Ask your AI to tell you the current maximum data capacity in the US.  It should be on everyones' radar if supply is constrained enough that it necesitate building 100x the infrastructure.

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ShellyMX
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8/30/2026 9:47am
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fullofdays
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8/30/2026 7:40pm

The gap is closing.  It's close

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