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or is that the storyline to The Breakfast Club
don't you (da na nananana) forget about me (da) don't, don't, don't, don't, don't you
But you shouldn't stoke the fire by making this stupid comparison with Roczen because its flawed for so many reasons and it just makes you seem like a hater.
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I wish that was my excuse
with your knowledge of our beers I'm assuming you've been badly sunburnt a time or two in the past haha
uuum wrong again? Implying I was wrong once... wouldn't have happened
and you've missed a few descriptives that I would've used
Tomac has had some better finishes than Roczen= fact
but he is not as fast as the American rookie= not a fact, that is a hard 'fact' to have in motocross or supercross unless those two have a shootout every week or start 1-2 week after week, and one of them dominates, you can't say for a fact one is faster than the other
This isn't an excuse for Roczen I actually don't care how he goes I just like what he brings to the AMA and really, he's kicking goals no matter what his results are I like Tomac too and am happy for him it just annoys me when people come on here stating all these 'facts' that aren't actually facts they're really, nothing more than an opinion
And he should have had 2 national championships if it weren't for mechanical failures...
Really? Show me a fact that proves Roczen is faster in AMA SX.
Some people believe evolution is a fact and not a theory because of the overwhelming evidence but no actual link.
Fact is, Tomac is faster and better in the AMA SX. His results are evidence. A couple races when Tomac caught up to an passed Roczen is also evidence. Just the facts ma'am.
"This isn't an excuse for Roczen "
Sure it is an excuse for Roczen, you are trying to overcome the facts of Tomacs wins, the evidence of him passing Roczen with some rules that we must use some other venue such as a shootout to be able to make a judgment as to who is faster. But at this point, Tomac is faster, and is doing better in the championship. I qualify this with at this point because we all know each track is different, if Tomac started crashing like Roczen has been then he could get injured, so it is not over until the fat lady sings, but at this point in time Tomac is faster and better. But I do agree both rookies are doing very well for their first year in AMA SX.
Roczen is a rookie and kicking some personal goals. Great. Tomac is a rookie and has won a race and is 3rd in points. I like what Tomac brings to AMA SX. Tomac and Roczen may not be the best rookies, because we split East and West, we have a lot of Rookies out there and number 66 in the East was looking pretty good. We will have to see how that shakes out. While I like that dividing East and West to give more people a chance to race and shine, it does not really allow us to see who the best rookie is between the two groups. I think Tomac and Roczen are probably in the top 4 rookies at this point, it is obvious they are not able to beat the top riders and if you combined the two groups, Roczen might not even be in the top 5 riders (rookies and non rookies from both EandW coast) with his more consistent 7th place finishes. (Though Tomac is looking pretty good for that too with his first race win he probably would be in the top 5 if both were combined) But enough day dreaming. The facts are, Tomac is better and faster than Roczen at this point. We will just have to wait to see how it plays out.
Time to watch to see if Barcia out of control style will allow him to win the East and beat out Euro rider. "Its worked so far but we're not out yet". Wilson seems to be much closer to the speed of Barcia than Roczen is to Tomac but we won't know for sure until the end.
Kind of like evolution, you won't know for sure until you are in heaven/hell, or you won't know at all because you won't exist.
Pit Row
take a gander here:
A1 Lites Results
facts can be manipulated to prove different points...... kinda like what you are continuing to do, to maintain your agenda and attempt to save face
3rd in the second moto at the race of the year, MXON, beating your lites champion Trey Canard.
Roczen also has a 7th place finish from san diego when just jumping in to the 450 class, beating The fastest man on the planet. All of this being 1 year younger than "Your rookie."
Eli Tomac has a 6th place from his first year in your Ama motocross nationals.
Roczens stats sure looks better than Tomacs, thats a fact.
Now btw, im pumped on Tomacs first win and he impresseing on me each and every round.
Facts -Roczen won a GP at fifteen, Second in the World at 15/16, won the MX2 MXDN class at 16, podium in 250 supercross at 16, seventh in 450 supercross at 16... Tomac was racing schoolboys at that age... That is why he gets a lot of hype....because of his outdoor speed and results at such a young age.....no-one said he would dominate supercross or be faster than Eli..
Maybe you should take you nationalistic glasses off and applaud the kid for his accomplishments so far.. he has accomplised more than any other rider in the history of the sport for his age...Nationality has nothing to do with it...why does it matter what country a great rider is from? again this Europe United nonsense you talk about is just that...Ken is as foreign to me as he is too you, Eli is also not from my country... so I can be objective on this.. you on the other hand are clearly biased based soley on ur nationality and deluded American pride..
As for Tomac.. he is fantastic...cool, calm and collected and reallyt fast... the best young American rider atm...maybe you could learn to be more humble and down to earth like him.. instead of trying to use him to boost your national ego
In supercross they are pretty even in speed, as the timed qualifying and heat race showed....Eli has had better starts that is all... using a race where Ken got knocked down in the first turn is pretty lame....why did you not say Reed tops RV drops?
Eli is a rookie, but he is older, racing his own countries sport, on a bike he knows with a team he is familiar with, and he had his own supercross track... Roczen had a new team, new country, new sport and was younger.. so it is not an accurate comparison... in fact it is not a comparison at all...and no need to compare... but if you are going to look at their careers so far. Ken has done more than Eli in his career so far and he is still only 16.
That said Eli is awesome and he is going to have a fantastic career ahead of him... I saw him win his first national at Hangtown.. so I have seen both ride... they are both great riders, I don't really care who wins, I love watching both ride... no need to bring up ur patriotic arrogance to try and say Eli is faster just becuase of his nationality.... you are just embarassing yourself and your country...Ken and Eli seem to have respect for each other... why can't you respect them both equally for being phenomenal riders?!
For the two he didnt... ( the last two) he was all over Eli looking for the pass in the final of the main at round before San Diego... and in San Diego, his laptime was slower (due to going down in the first turn) He was faster than Eli at the end though, and had the fastest qualifying time and beat Eli in the heat when they both got the start...
Ken was also the fastest qualifier at A1 his first ever supercross, but got injured through no fault of his own in practice...
Just some fact to dispel your deluded theory that Eli is faster/ a better rider than Ken... he isn't they are both equally fast at supercross. Ken's speed in supercross is as good as anyones.(as is Eli's). The main thing that Eli has improved are his starts.. he got two bad starts in A1 and Phoenix... but that didn't mean he was a bad rider...I expected him to win races this year more than Ken actually.
In supercross anything can happen and the top guys are very even in speed, don't over analyse things. Eli has put the series together better than Ken true but it isn't because he is so much faster, he has just been getting better starts, being a bit older and racing in his home country and all that brings is bound to help somewhat too with putting it all together.
Again.. not saying Roczen is better than Tomac at AMA supercross.. but speedwise they are very similar, and that is a compliment to the 16 year old from Germany.. because Tomac is a great rider.
Did I say Roczen was slow. No, I said he was fast. Have I debated he did well in Fim motocross. No.
He wasn't really second in the world, because the world does not include the US. The US has the fastest riders in the world, kind of makes that shiny Fim trophy a little less bright.
So lets sayI go along with your excuse that he gets bad starts. If he gets bad starts in AMA motocross, he won't do very well IMHO. But we will have to see, you on the other hand and some here automatically assume he will win AMA motocross, I don't, I prefer to wait and see. Have you seen me say Tomac will beat Roczen in AMA motocross. No because I don't know and I don't assume. I will not have to make excuses for Tomac if Roczen beats him in AMA motocross because I have never said Tomac is better. If Roczen only gets 7th place in AMA motocross what excuses will you use then, He is still 16, he gets bad starts, US tracks are different from US. Again those who say he will "blow away" everyone in motocross will be the ones that have to back pedal. Just like when America won the MXON. I will also say Roczen did very well in MXON, he didn't appear to get a bad start then.
On 2/16 you wrote. "Herlings, Paulin, Searle etc are as fast as Wlson, Tomac, Barcia...
2/14 "Barcia would be closer to Roczen in the US nationals than he would if they rode GPs but Ken is a better overall rider. "
2/12 "Roczen faster than Reed in quali two... the guy is awesome"
Man talk about comparisons and nut huggin'. You got me beat. LOL
"Americans let national pride get in the way of judging riders ability way"
Really? Is it by patriotism I say Roczen is faster in AMA SX or is it by results?
"why did you not say Reed tops RV drops?"
Cause I don't have to say what you want me to say. Why don't you say it if you feel that way.
"Eli is a rookie, but he is older, racing his own countries sport, on a bike he knows with a team he is familiar with"
Ok so now instead of making excuses why Roczen is not as good as Tomac, you now resort to making excuses why Tomac is better than Roczen, only proving my point, Tomac is better in AMA SX at this point.
"That said Eli is awesome "
I know, that was another one of my points. While everyone was talking about Roczen. I was talking about Tomac, probably because I am an American.
"no need to bring up ur patriotic arrogance to try and say Eli is faster just because of his nationality."
I don't remember saying Tomac was faster in AMA SX because he was an American. You guys seemed to do that saying he has the advantage of racing SX. But I don't remember him racing an AMA SX.
You tell me I should not bring up my patriotic cheers for Tomac but this board and the media have brought up Roczen so many times, how he will do this and that. I merely brought up the fact Tomac is doing better, riding faster than Roczen in the AMA SX.
"in fact it is not a comparison at all...and no need to compare"
Sure it is, do they compete in the same class? Do they race side by side each weekend? It is a fair comparison. Is it fair to compare Kdub to Roczen in the 450 class? Sure, Kdub is older and at a disadvantage but he still has to perform, when you start using age as an excuse to not winning, time to stop racing, but I know Roczen doesn't use this as an excuse, only the "nut hugger" LOL.
"why can't you respect them both equally for being phenomenal riders"
I repect Tomac more because he is faster than Roczen shown by him passing him, he has a first and Roczen doesn't, he is farther up the standings than Roczen at this point. So while Roczen had the hype, Tomac had might. Respect is earned not given and as far as AMA SX is concerned, I respect Tomac more. Forgive me if I have more respect of one rider over another because one has better results.
We have beat this subject to death and I think I am done, continue on if you like. I respect that Roczen is a fast rider (though not as fast or consistant as Tomac). I respect he got a second in the FIM championhip. He is a great rider and it appears he will be going places. But I will reserve judgement on Roczen and Tomac to see if they can win a SX championship or a AMA MX championship, my respect will go up for both of them if they do. But after that, then they have to race with the fast riders and see if they can beat them. Only time will tell.
Notice any interesting correlations between the predictions made by the Europeans and those made by American forum members?
Here, I'll list a few for you, incase you're too lazy to read the thread...
Mccread UK
'Roczen will do well I think... but remember, he is still only 16 and racing supercross for the first time ever...and he is from Germany....on a brand new bike ... I expect a lot of speed and maybe a couple of crashes... I wouldnt be surprised if he podiumed and even won a race or two. It would be a big ask for him to win the championship tho.... though I would not say it is impossible... I think Tomac will be good too'
Fabio Italy
Like some of you said, I don't know how good he can be in sx, with a new bike and at his first experience ever indoor.
But when he will race the outdoor in 2012 I'm pretty sure he will be a contender for the title, the kid is incredibly gifted, has a lot of speed and an amazing style. To me he can be one of the guys to watch in the future.
I just hope he stays away from injuries in sx this year.
TMV France
Outdoor, he could be a threat straight up, but Indoor is another story. Top 5 would be a really good accomplishment for a rookie year... Wish him the best and really looking forward to Anahem 1.
Myself UK
'I doubt he'll quite live up to the heights people are beginning to expect, I think he'll do well to end the SX series 3rd/4th'
These quotes (the only Euro predictions in the thread) somewhat contradict your multiple statements saying "It is you Euros that seem to be swinging from Roczen sack" and "this is the drum the Euros have been beating"... don't you think?
Carlosmacho USA
"It is you Euros that come to the American board, spout your hate and tell us how your boys are gonna beat us".
Is that right? Most of us made pretty fair and accurate predictions, don't you think?
You fabricated a myth that all the European 'nut huggers' were 'banging the drum' saying how Roczen was going to wax everyone in Supercross which was wildly inaccurate, and with these kind of threads/posts you're essentially attempting to humiliate us Euro's because "our rider" hasn't lived up to "our expectations"... even though we called it correctly from the start.
That is what most of us are taking issue with, not whether Roczen is better than Tomac at Supercross, or what you do or don't do on European boards. (Though to be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if you frequented a particular UK forum under a familiar screen name)
He wasn't really second in the world, because the world does not include the US. The US has the fastest riders in the world, kind of makes that shiny Fim trophy a little less bright.
And that is your fundamental error.... your lack of respect for the World Championship and the speed of the riders from many countries that race in it. Therefore you don't respect Ken's accomplishments so far...because you believe Americans are superior therefore he has proved nothing - the US nationals are no better than the world championship in quality..they are just a different series.
Judging Roczen against Tomac solely in America is like judging Eli solely in Germany against Roczen in his home country.. if he had to learn German, new tracks, way of life... if Roczen beat him in Germany would that be a fair comparison or would u say Roczen had an advantage...Do you really think Eli would beat Herlings in the sands of Holland for example? would you judge Tomac and Herlings off that? Or would that not be a fair comparison either...
The World Champoinship is the only fair way to compare... one race in Roczen's country.. Germany... one in Tomacs.. USA the rest all foreign countries. But it is pretty obvious top riders are all fast and fairly even at that level.. I actually think Eli would be potentially a title contender in the GPs along with Searle, Herlings, Roczen and Paulin...he is that good.
Try reading the predictions Jamma put up....no -one said he was better than Eli Tomac at supercross or he would dominate the series...yo have actually manufactured the entire thing in your head because you are offended a non-america was put on the same level as your countrymen... ha ha ha !
Both are great riders and Roczen is as fast as Eli in supercross... but Ken has achieved more in his career so far and he is only sixteen - that is a fact.
https://youtu.be/rltssW5VYxQ
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