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Whatever it is, it's never enough for them.
We should we also give those corporations a ballot and a vote? They already have too much influence. I read that all the time on here keep corporations out of politics half of the folks in here are arguing for it now it’s insane
If you tax even the top earners in the country just a little more they are still going to want to make more money I promise you.
If you don't like corporations having a say in government, then stop taxing them.
^ This had me cracking up this morning, thank you sir.
Corporations aren't taxed just like a person though, at least to my understanding.
As an individual, your taxes are taken from your earnings before your expenses are covered.
Corporations pay their taxes after their expenses are covered.
This is a huge difference...
Back in the day corporations would invest in the communities they served to minimize their tax burden. Today they use all sorts of loopholes to avoid them altogether, and maximize profits.
Any of you get your tariff refund check yet? $100B was just paid out to many corporations due to the unconstitutional tariff deployment. $2.2B to Apple, $600M to Amazon, $2.4B 'owed' to Walmart.
Lot of dudes here love big brother taking your lunch.
Corporations have just devoured smaller companies, consolidated industries and the competitive landscape, and created an environment where they can easily manipulate and control markets, fully facilitated by our government. And we should feel so lucky, because these great entities create jobs.
EDIT - Grammar.
A super common manipulation technique is to hide something bogus in with a bunch of stuff that's legit, because scumbags always try to blend in to make themselves look like victims. The vast majority of that list is part of a legit grievance, the millions of ways that people are taxed and we're getting sick of it. Now...what some scumbags have done is make that meme and sneak little things in there like the estate tax, which starts at $15 million dollars for an individual or $30 million for a married couple, and they put that under the headline of taxes that "the average American is asked to pay", Oh my gosh that's me, I'm an average American and I need to fight for my tax exemption for my $15-$30 million dollar mansion! And luxury tax, I need to fight against taxation on my yacht! I can totally relate to these average American problems!!
It's the McDonald's technique where you poison millions of people all day long and then start a children's hospital so that kids literally die if you ever try to pushback on them for poisoning people. Oh gosh you made us put less poison in there and prices had to go up, oh gosh we're really struggling now and need to cut back on things like helping kids, shame on you for making us kill these kids. So much puke on the painfully obvious predatorial tactics that for some reason nobody notices or cares about.
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"Those people with 2nd homes in nyc have 3, 4, and 5th homes in Tahoe and park city and LA so I don’t think they are contributing as much to the economy as your argument indicates."
Oddly enough, your argument indicates they pay way more. They are paying property tax i a city/township/(whatever you want to call it) for a full year and use it maybe 1 month? So for one month, they use the roads, they don't consume school resources, pretty much don't consume any of the town's resources, but provide jobs to people that take care of their property while they are gone. And they do this 5 times over per your logic. NYC spends roughly $40,000 per year per child on education (per the NY Post). Do you think any of those people send their kids to public school? That's like and additional $80K per year for an average 2 child family that their tax dollars fund but they don't use. They spend more money remodelling their houses than people with one home, more jobs created. They invest more money to create more jobs, how many companies are created by poor people to create jobs?
Again, you used the phrase "their fair share", what is "their fair share"?
TM
Meanwhile they’ve driven the cost of homes so high no one that actually works there can afford to live there.
With the exception of SS, individuals also have deductions on their taxes so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. My point is just that they are taxed. The form of the tax is irrelevant. In my perfect world, no business would be taxed. There are some people who blame corporations for whatever bug happens to be up their ass at the time. They make these blanket statements like "corporations are robbing us blind" and other unsubstantiated claims. Coca Cola can want me to buy their shit really really badly but I don't have to. When the government wants me to do something it comes with gun and a badge. There's your major difference. Businesses are not good or bad they are there to make a profit. Government is not good or bad, they are just force.
https://share.google/uvTlTUqxE51L3u8cf
The point I'm trying to make is corporations pay taxes after all of their expenses are covered. And they make sure there is very little, if any remaining for taxes. Money gets moved around more than just covering actual operating costs. The insanely high CEO salaries in this country are "operating expenses" as just one example.
Why would no businesses be taxed in your perfect world? Are individuals still taxed in your perfect world?
And, in your perfect world, if businesses pay no taxes, do they have no influence in policy decisions? No taxation, no representation, right?
This is old but I'll post it again. Shows where most of fed revenue come from.
Graph below shows the trend in tax rate. You notice anything about the line for top earners? They pay less and less tax, while making more and more at the same time. All those job creators are working hard to automate, and eliminate human labor as fast as they can.
I'd argue that they buy houses that normal people can't afford anyway so that is a nonstarter. How many normal people do you know that can afford a home in Aspen? How many rich people do you suppose own a second home (for vacation getaway) in Compton? And Millions of illegals that needed a place to live drive up the cost of housing because you can rent to "section 8" what the government subsidizes for more money than direct tenant that can afford to rent a starter home. That causes the value to rise much more but you still won't answer the question.
What is "their fair share"? Since you brought it up.
TM
Now you're on tax rates. They don't tell the story. The top 50% of earners pay 97% of all income taxes collected. The bottom 50% of earners pay 3% of all income taxes collected. The rate is irrelevant to who pays all the taxes. You can look these numbers up at the Tax Foundation. This idea that the high income earners don't pay their "fair share" is just plain Democrat campaign bullshit talking points. It has nothing to do with reality.
This is why I am for voter suppression. The vast majority of voters know dick about economics.
A voter intelligence test? 🤣
No. Mostly a civics test. That would weed out most of the low information voters. I would put it at the end of every ballot. If you don't pass the test your vote goes in the trash. My guess is that 80% of California voters would have their ballots shit canned. The makeup of the legislature would change very quickly.
First task, acquire an ID. Doh!
tm
Where are you @soggy ?
What is "their fair share"? Since you brought it up.
TM
A good point you bring up. The wage gap issue. Since 1980 the top earners saw a 160% increase in wages.
High-income earners experienced rapid cumulative wage growth, driven heavily by executive compensation, stock options, and capital concentration.
The richest 1% make over 100x more than the bottom 20%.
American workers have been incredibly productive, but the fruits of that labor are funneled to the top.
And these numbers will likely get worse, as manufactured crisis, market manipulation, etc. will continue to transfer wealth to the top.
Oddly enough, this stat seems to align with the graph I posted above. Driven heavily by policy that serves the corporate class. Perhaps these are related?
EDIT - You are for voter suppression. Right on, but be careful what you wish for. I bet it starts hitting closer to home in the next several years. Also remember, Donny loves the uneducated. Your voter suppression evaluation would likely remove the majority of his faithful herd. Although as the Don has mentioned already, that shouldn't matter because Elon is good at computers.
Are the Bottom 20% actually "Workers"?
Here, in California, I'm quite sure they aren't.
Not only that, if you had a company that employs 500 employees 50 years ago but since then you've grown, acquired, gained market share and now control 5,000 employees, I think you might just be worth a lot more.
TM
Pit Row
You just keep banging on about "the rich". I look for rich people and figure out a way to become valuable to them. You look for rich people to figure out a way to take their money I would have earned and give it to the goddam government. We are from two different planets.
Here's part of the reason for the wage gap. It's employer paid health insurance. Less knowledgeable people actually think that their employer pays half their SS and their health care premium. Sorry, you pay for all of that and it comes in the form of lower wages over time. You are paying for health insurance that that you would never buy if you only knew you were paying for it. It was one of the big fuckups of Obamacare. And that was to expand on the very thing that makes our healthcare more expensive than many other Western countries. Employer paid health insurance. I don't expect you to accept any of this. But as the reasonably engaged person you seem to be, I hope you do some research that might challenge some of the conclusions you have come to.
I am completely open to changing my opinion. I was primarily going on about corporations, and the corporate stronghold on our country.
I have no issues with rich people, the ones who run successful and ethical businesses, or work for something of the like, etc. I don't have much respect for the uber rich people who's wealth is solely tied to something like large corporations and the compensation packages that occupy the upper levels of such entities.
You and I are in agreement with your second point. Although I would say it's the insurance industry at large, the employer is just the customer with the insured employee. I work with the largest med device companies we have, and have been employed internally at such entities. I know a fair amount about our regulatory environment, as well as EU, Asia, emerging markets, etc. as a reference as most things I make end up being sold/used globally. I prefer to consult for them now though and try to minimize exposure to the insides of corporate America.
Maybe I've just had too many bad experiences 😂
You get the last word. Thanks
And too many of them at that. Pala laps for me this weekend - hopefully you gents are able to swing a leg over a hog and pull on some throttle strings as well.
Speaking of two planets and Pala and me rambling too much. Pala early AM vs afternoon feels like two different planets right now.
Funny enough, a few years back when we all dealt with a certain global case of bullshit that piggybacked off an actual serious global issue.
We called a lot of them "essential or frontline workers". Because in reality they were.
What were the top corporate earners doing to make sure the world went round still during this time? How many corporations received federal support or bailouts, while countless small businesses were literally forced to close their doors, couldn't afford to incur the costs related to all the safeguarding measures let alone substantially reduced business hours or access, etc. because the government forced them to.
Crisis = opportunity. Transfer of wealth. Transfer of wealth makes the natives restless. Natives get restless enough = transfer of power. Meanwhile, a transfer of power has been occuring in plain sight for several decades.
@ToolMaker Regarding 50yr old companies that have grown into massive corporate behemoths...Long ramble incoming.
How many companies founded 50yrs ago still have the original leader at the helm? How many family businesses don't have younger generation that want to take over? They all want to be influencers. Great.Through acquisition soul is lost, internal knowledge worth anything leaves the companies quickly.
New owners purchase successful companies built by people serving others, solving problems, or otherwise giving back to the world enough that they earn revenue and built a business valuable enough to acquire.
New owners maximize profit, cut costs wherever possible to do so, and milk it or kill off competitor products. No one has any accountability, it's a lot of people with their own missions that don't align with what you would think is best for the organization. The organization ultimately just wants to serve shareholders, not necessarily create the best solutions for the market. Just make more money, by any means necessary.
Growth and employee count are leverage tools in acquisition strategies. Most corporate employees are quite useless and don't do anything of value (as noted at the beginning of this post). One of the first questions I ask smaller clients - are you looking to bring something to market yourself or package a viable solution to get sold off to a larger corporation.
Our country has basically turned into a corporation and it kind of sucks. Or in our current case a casino. But I think we will all grow tired of something enough that the tide shifts.
As you mentioned previously, the creme will always rise to the top. Unless humanity collectively decides to switch to a new flavor. One of the unanticipated consequences of connecting everything and everyone in such a way we experience today.
It'll be all good. And if not I bet it will be exciting. So it'll be all good.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong but if a bad decision by someone goes unnoticed they probably don't deserve a high wage. If a bad decision has the potential to shut down a division, that person better be well qualified and paid a lot. And there's a lot of in-between. But in most cases these days responsibility is spread over groups, so individuals need not shine because they will not get proper recognition but also will not get terminated for poor performance.
TM
Your first paragraph nails it.
It's the very definition of a job.
Possessing the skills and experience in order to benefit, and be compensated by, a business or individual.
Edit: you also have to be aware of the scale your skills are being compensated in different areas of the country. And have the backbone to stand up for yourself and those skills. Walking away if you're being shortchanged:
Combine that with a proper work ethic, and the desire to constantly improve, and expand, those skills.
Something that being lost on a rapidly growing segment of our society.
I'm also curious about these clowns who holler, tax the rich, and supply side economics don't work.
What are they doing for a living ??
What fuels their income, and to what level ??
Are they sucking off a teet, or actually producing for someone ??
Within most corporations, there is usually a minority faction of hard working people who are generating real value. Alongside them are many of the folks you mentioned, people who do the 9-5 office slog but don't actually do anything useful (leeches). When the company is acquired, that small faction of hard workers are usually the first to move on.
If we stopped playing the game of modern society today, the vast majority of corporations don't provide anything actually useful to us or the world/environment (we mostly create crap in excess and destroy the planet while we're at it). We create a lot of crap to consume, and it is simply a vehicle for wealth and power consolidation at this point.
The leaders at the top of many corporations, are often times some of the dumbest there, or are the most detached from what the company actually does, or they are just a good bean counter. Fail upwards is a common progression in this arena. I don't know how many times a CEO or CTO has chimed in with an ignorant opinion that completely derailed development that was driven by actual experts who have done real homework. And I've seen this make startups with good concepts and intentions fail, I've seen it result in millions of dollars vaporized due to a change in direction from an insecure CEO who needs to exercise their authority to feel a sense of control.
I was just in Bentonville AR a few weeks back to ride MTB. That town is pretty gorgeous, a lot of Walmart fuck you money. The corporate workers who live there get to reap the benefits of this fuck you spending.
What actually makes Walmart happen? The thousands and thousands of incredibly low wage workers in the stores (front line), many who often need to rely on government support because their wages are so low relative to cost of living. There are vendors who supply the product to Walmart, who Walmart is notorious for beating up to get themselves the lowest purchase price. And Walmart is so big, it's hard to say no or negotiate in any way. And Walmart has eliminated most other retailers that these vendors could have sold to otherwise.
See any parallels to how our country is operating?
EDIT - And I'm not saying just eliminate big business, but we need to make some major adjustments to the rules of the game relative to corporate entities and the influence they have on society, our country/government/etc.
My apologies @borg for contributing to the derailment of this thread. Let me know when you have the first draft on your civics test. I'm curious how I'd do.
sorry to keep you waiting..
by and large i've realized the back and forth here is a waste of my time. So I'll pop in here and there, offer my two cents and dip.
this country has grown insane amounts of wealth for many and that's great. but when I see massive tax cuts for top earners and corporations and at the same time massive reductions to social safety net programs (medicare, snap etc) it makes me go hmmm.
You can't blame a company for the absolute glut of a workforce full of people with limited skills, and zero ambition. People who spend their existence just getting by.
A local board has daily posts of, "who's hiring??".
Always makes me want to ask the question, "can you provide a service to improve your employer's ability to conduct business, or just toil away as a service industry drone ??"
I'd be willing to bet that these are the ones crying, tax the rich.
Forever stuck in a series of dead end jobs.
Close to a decade ago, I was on a small trim crew, setting doors, running crown, door and window casing, baseboard, etc... the guy paid basically $12-14,000 per week.
The homebuilder had some cabinet shop doing the limited amount of built in cabinetry. And it was nothing better than production quality.
I asked if I could build his next set, showed him photos of my work.
Did his next house. Better quality.
Soon he was loading me up with much more built in cabinetry in each home, as he began offering his clients more.
A win win for all involved.
I more than doubled my income, much more satisfying work.
And he definitely upped his fit and finish interior game, and made more $$$ per sq ft.
Worked for him right up until he retired 14 months ago.
Ambition.
Had it from the day I came out of high school.
I'm past the age most retire, or end up working at walmart.
Doing what I want, taking jobs I want.
And all from people of means.
If your stuck in a work slave labor situation, you need to take a good look at yourself as to why.
Not blame the one's talking advantage of you.
Only adds up to a bit less than $150,000 per yr.
Plus, there was down time between builds. So those trim guys weren't there year round.
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