Some people are just....

SEEMEFIRST
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6/13/2026 8:24am
R66 wrote:
Funny how the democrats always side with the person who did the crime. Maryland Dad, the guy in TX that just stabbed the guy at the...

Funny how the democrats always side with the person who did the crime. Maryland Dad, the guy in TX that just stabbed the guy at the track meet, Etc., 

The lady at the verdict protest who said she had 5 sons, and asked what she was supposed to do. 

Well, you could start out by teaching them to not plunge knives into people's chest. I mean it's a start.

2
byke
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6/13/2026 8:44am Edited Date/Time 6/13/2026 8:45am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I never claimed you said every immigrant from a violent country is violent. What I said was that you’re using characteristics of a country or society...

I never claimed you said every immigrant from a violent country is violent. What I said was that you’re using characteristics of a country or society as evidence about the people coming from it.

For example:
“When the society of a nation is more violent than yours, bringing those people to your country may be introducing people that are conditioned to solving their problems with violence.”
Or:
“Past behavior is an excellent indicator of future behavior.”

The issue is that the ‘past behavior’ you’re referring to isn’t the behavior of the individual immigrant. It’s the behavior of the society they came from.  That’s why I asked for evidence.  

You’re making an inference from “this country has a high level of violence” to “people arriving from that country are more likely to be violent.”

That’s a statistical claim. It may be true, it may be false, or it may be true only in certain circumstances. But it isn’t self-evident, and asking for evidence isn’t dishonest.

byke wrote:
I didn't say that asking for evidence was dishonest, but anyway, let's slice it up a bit. Do you believe that people from other countries where...

I didn't say that asking for evidence was dishonest, but anyway, let's slice it up a bit. Do you believe that people from other countries where women and gays are second class citizens, places where it's socially acceptable to strike your wife, stop holding those beliefs and stop striking their wives when they move to a new country where those beliefs are far less prominent? 

If you moved to Wyoming, would you start voting Republican? 

APLMAN99 wrote:
No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have...

No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have and continue to do.  

But that actually supports my point. People don’t instantly abandon all of their beliefs when they move, but neither do they perfectly represent the society they came from.  In fact, one of the main reasons for refugees fleeing their home country is because they don’t want to live in the society that has norms they don’t/can’t agree with.  

A woman fleeing a culture where wives are beaten may not share those beliefs. A gay person fleeing persecution almost certainly doesn’t.

That’s why I keep asking for evidence. Once we move from “some people carry beliefs with them” to claims about millions of immigrants, we’re talking about a statistical question, not a self-evident truth.
 

You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But, every bit as much, if not more, are people that leave for economic reasons. Your post provided a slice of evidence, as you said, no you wouldn't change just because you moved to a new location. We don't need evidence to know that. The questions were rhetorical.

1
1
APLMAN99
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6/13/2026 9:01am
Boomslang wrote:
Sudan is a violent country. Kids grow up witnessing widespread atrocities and ethnicly driven violence. Cutting a head off is a common. Your neighbor gives you...

Sudan is a violent country. Kids grow up witnessing widespread atrocities and ethnicly driven violence. Cutting a head off is a common. Your neighbor gives you shit, you cut his head off.

Doesn't surprise me that this dude tried to cut someone's head off in another country.

Africa is a violent continent.

Ever heard of the African necklace? They pull a old car tire over a dudes head and arms trapping him. Then they lite it up with gasoline.

soggy wrote:

Full blown racism, nice. Please stay in SA. 

Boomslang wrote:

What's your problem Soggy?  I'm far from racist.

Boom, you mostly seem like a decent guy. But you’ve made at least a couple of posts over the years about wishing Hitler would have won, SA shouldn’t have abolished apartheid, etc. to not be serious about being far from racist. 

It is what it is. 

3
ShellyMX
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6/13/2026 9:18am

Kevin giving off serious EIDave vibes. 

3

The Shop

6/13/2026 9:20am Edited Date/Time 6/13/2026 9:21am
soggy wrote:

Full blown racism, nice. Please stay in SA. 

Boomslang wrote:

What's your problem Soggy?  I'm far from racist.

APLMAN99 wrote:
Boom, you mostly seem like a decent guy. But you’ve made at least a couple of posts over the years about wishing Hitler would have won...

Boom, you mostly seem like a decent guy. But you’ve made at least a couple of posts over the years about wishing Hitler would have won, SA shouldn’t have abolished apartheid, etc. to not be serious about being far from racist. 

It is what it is. 

Correct and I'm sorry for that. When people you care about get murdered in a draconian manner then its easy to shoot your mouth off without thinking.

But again, I'm not racist. I have some good African friends who I hang out with often. These guys are welcome in my home.

For me, bad people are bad people, regardless of their colour or where they come from.

Aplman, you have always come across as an alright dude, and when I step out of line and get called out for it, then it gets me thinking on how to be a better person.

 

5
APLMAN99
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6/13/2026 9:50am
Boomslang wrote:

What's your problem Soggy?  I'm far from racist.

APLMAN99 wrote:
Boom, you mostly seem like a decent guy. But you’ve made at least a couple of posts over the years about wishing Hitler would have won...

Boom, you mostly seem like a decent guy. But you’ve made at least a couple of posts over the years about wishing Hitler would have won, SA shouldn’t have abolished apartheid, etc. to not be serious about being far from racist. 

It is what it is. 

Boomslang wrote:
Correct and I'm sorry for that. When people you care about get murdered in a draconian manner then its easy to shoot your mouth off without...

Correct and I'm sorry for that. When people you care about get murdered in a draconian manner then its easy to shoot your mouth off without thinking.

But again, I'm not racist. I have some good African friends who I hang out with often. These guys are welcome in my home.

For me, bad people are bad people, regardless of their colour or where they come from.

Aplman, you have always come across as an alright dude, and when I step out of line and get called out for it, then it gets me thinking on how to be a better person.

 

Boom, I’m not condemning you, but I do condemn some of the things you say and I wish that you felt differently. But life’s not perfect and even if we try to be virtuous, we all come up short in some way. I do, you do, everyone does. 

That’s why things like racism, prejudice, etc. are sometimes extremely complicated. We don’t always see our biases that well because we have a more difficult time being objective about ourselves. 

Like I said, I think that you seem like a mostly good guy, but those moments of frustration when you instinctively say something overtly racist means something. When those things happen, it usually isn’t by accident. And probably just like a large percentage of nearly every society, it’s likely based in the viewpoint that if someone of a different group of ethnicity commits a crime, it represents the entire group but if someone from ‘our’ group or ethnicity commits a crime, it only represents that individual. 

I think that we’ve all had that perspective at different points or situations in our lives. I think you’re too good of a guy otherwise to keep that viewpoint going. 

1
5
APLMAN99
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6/13/2026 10:20am
byke wrote:
I didn't say that asking for evidence was dishonest, but anyway, let's slice it up a bit. Do you believe that people from other countries where...

I didn't say that asking for evidence was dishonest, but anyway, let's slice it up a bit. Do you believe that people from other countries where women and gays are second class citizens, places where it's socially acceptable to strike your wife, stop holding those beliefs and stop striking their wives when they move to a new country where those beliefs are far less prominent? 

If you moved to Wyoming, would you start voting Republican? 

APLMAN99 wrote:
No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have...

No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have and continue to do.  

But that actually supports my point. People don’t instantly abandon all of their beliefs when they move, but neither do they perfectly represent the society they came from.  In fact, one of the main reasons for refugees fleeing their home country is because they don’t want to live in the society that has norms they don’t/can’t agree with.  

A woman fleeing a culture where wives are beaten may not share those beliefs. A gay person fleeing persecution almost certainly doesn’t.

That’s why I keep asking for evidence. Once we move from “some people carry beliefs with them” to claims about millions of immigrants, we’re talking about a statistical question, not a self-evident truth.
 

byke wrote:
You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But...

You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But, every bit as much, if not more, are people that leave for economic reasons. Your post provided a slice of evidence, as you said, no you wouldn't change just because you moved to a new location. We don't need evidence to know that. The questions were rhetorical.

I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.

What I’m struggling with is why this particular crime is being treated as evidence about refugees generally (and Sudanese refugees specifically in this case).

When a white Texan commits a gruesome murder (see the example of the dismemberment example on page 1), we don’t usually treat it as evidence about white people, Texans, or Americans as a group. The Jared James Dicus case was every bit as horrific, yet nobody argued it revealed something important about white Texans as a population.

If the argument is about broader cultural influences, then we still need evidence showing how widespread those influences are and how much they actually affect behavior. That’s especially important given that studies in Texas have found illegal immigrants have lower violent crime rates than native-born Americans, despite many coming from countries with higher levels of violence.  That’s exactly opposite of the behavior you have inferred, isn’t it? 

So what makes this case different, and what evidence shows it reflects a broader pattern rather than an individual crime?


 

5
ShellyMX
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6/13/2026 11:02am
IMG 4657 4.jpeg?VersionId=vJMKRwBISwYwnJPm6INHrg
3
byke
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Auburn, CA US
6/13/2026 11:22am
APLMAN99 wrote:
No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have...

No, I wouldn’t suddenly start voting Republican if I moved to Wyoming.  I’d probably still vote for at least 60-75% Republican candidates like I currently have and continue to do.  

But that actually supports my point. People don’t instantly abandon all of their beliefs when they move, but neither do they perfectly represent the society they came from.  In fact, one of the main reasons for refugees fleeing their home country is because they don’t want to live in the society that has norms they don’t/can’t agree with.  

A woman fleeing a culture where wives are beaten may not share those beliefs. A gay person fleeing persecution almost certainly doesn’t.

That’s why I keep asking for evidence. Once we move from “some people carry beliefs with them” to claims about millions of immigrants, we’re talking about a statistical question, not a self-evident truth.
 

byke wrote:
You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But...

You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But, every bit as much, if not more, are people that leave for economic reasons. Your post provided a slice of evidence, as you said, no you wouldn't change just because you moved to a new location. We don't need evidence to know that. The questions were rhetorical.

APLMAN99 wrote:
I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.What I’m struggling with is why...

I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.

What I’m struggling with is why this particular crime is being treated as evidence about refugees generally (and Sudanese refugees specifically in this case).

When a white Texan commits a gruesome murder (see the example of the dismemberment example on page 1), we don’t usually treat it as evidence about white people, Texans, or Americans as a group. The Jared James Dicus case was every bit as horrific, yet nobody argued it revealed something important about white Texans as a population.

If the argument is about broader cultural influences, then we still need evidence showing how widespread those influences are and how much they actually affect behavior. That’s especially important given that studies in Texas have found illegal immigrants have lower violent crime rates than native-born Americans, despite many coming from countries with higher levels of violence.  That’s exactly opposite of the behavior you have inferred, isn’t it? 

So what makes this case different, and what evidence shows it reflects a broader pattern rather than an individual crime?


 

No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime per capita and when people from a region with extremely high violent crime (like Sudan) come to your region with much lower crime, then you may be introducing more violent crime into your region.....and please pay attention because here is the core point of what I'm saying.....and.....people are growing tired of it, and if politicians continue to ignore that growing resentment, people will lose confidence in governments, and it can be extremely difficult to get back.

If white Texans have a much higher rate of crime than some other country, and a bunch of  white Texans mover to that country, the odds are that country will be introducing more crime into their country. That's just the odds of it and color or location does not matter, legal or illegal does not matter. 

Maybe google something like, "do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" and see what you come up with. 

 

2
APLMAN99
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Tualatin, OR US
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6/13/2026 1:26pm
byke wrote:
You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But...

You are absolutely correct that some people leave their country to get away from those things, like the examples you mentioned with women and gays. But, every bit as much, if not more, are people that leave for economic reasons. Your post provided a slice of evidence, as you said, no you wouldn't change just because you moved to a new location. We don't need evidence to know that. The questions were rhetorical.

APLMAN99 wrote:
I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.What I’m struggling with is why...

I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.

What I’m struggling with is why this particular crime is being treated as evidence about refugees generally (and Sudanese refugees specifically in this case).

When a white Texan commits a gruesome murder (see the example of the dismemberment example on page 1), we don’t usually treat it as evidence about white people, Texans, or Americans as a group. The Jared James Dicus case was every bit as horrific, yet nobody argued it revealed something important about white Texans as a population.

If the argument is about broader cultural influences, then we still need evidence showing how widespread those influences are and how much they actually affect behavior. That’s especially important given that studies in Texas have found illegal immigrants have lower violent crime rates than native-born Americans, despite many coming from countries with higher levels of violence.  That’s exactly opposite of the behavior you have inferred, isn’t it? 

So what makes this case different, and what evidence shows it reflects a broader pattern rather than an individual crime?


 

byke wrote:
No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime...

No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime per capita and when people from a region with extremely high violent crime (like Sudan) come to your region with much lower crime, then you may be introducing more violent crime into your region.....and please pay attention because here is the core point of what I'm saying.....and.....people are growing tired of it, and if politicians continue to ignore that growing resentment, people will lose confidence in governments, and it can be extremely difficult to get back.

If white Texans have a much higher rate of crime than some other country, and a bunch of  white Texans mover to that country, the odds are that country will be introducing more crime into their country. That's just the odds of it and color or location does not matter, legal or illegal does not matter. 

Maybe google something like, "do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" and see what you come up with. 

 

I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.

You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair enough that’s a hypothesis (even though you treat it less like ‘may’ and more like ‘do’ with your assertion that people are tired of it).

The problem is that it’s not self-evidently true.  And we can actually test it.

For example, as mentioned previously Texas has a large population of illegal immigrants from countries with significantly higher violent-crime rates than the United States. If your hypothesis is generally correct, we’d expect to see higher violent-crime rates among that population.

Yet studies of Texas have found the opposite.  Illegal immigrants have lower violent-crime rates than native-born Americans.

So when you tell me to Google whether violent people remain violent after relocating, you’re shifting from individuals to populations again.

Of course a violent individual who relocates may remain violent. Nobody disputes that.

The question is whether immigrant populations from high crime countries commit more violent crime after arriving.

That’s the claim you’ve been making all along, and it’s the claim the Texas data doesn’t seem to support.  
 


 

4
byke
Posts
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6/13/2026 1:51pm Edited Date/Time 6/13/2026 1:54pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.What I’m struggling with is why...

I don’t think we disagree that culture can influence behavior or that people often bring beliefs with them when they move.

What I’m struggling with is why this particular crime is being treated as evidence about refugees generally (and Sudanese refugees specifically in this case).

When a white Texan commits a gruesome murder (see the example of the dismemberment example on page 1), we don’t usually treat it as evidence about white people, Texans, or Americans as a group. The Jared James Dicus case was every bit as horrific, yet nobody argued it revealed something important about white Texans as a population.

If the argument is about broader cultural influences, then we still need evidence showing how widespread those influences are and how much they actually affect behavior. That’s especially important given that studies in Texas have found illegal immigrants have lower violent crime rates than native-born Americans, despite many coming from countries with higher levels of violence.  That’s exactly opposite of the behavior you have inferred, isn’t it? 

So what makes this case different, and what evidence shows it reflects a broader pattern rather than an individual crime?


 

byke wrote:
No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime...

No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime per capita and when people from a region with extremely high violent crime (like Sudan) come to your region with much lower crime, then you may be introducing more violent crime into your region.....and please pay attention because here is the core point of what I'm saying.....and.....people are growing tired of it, and if politicians continue to ignore that growing resentment, people will lose confidence in governments, and it can be extremely difficult to get back.

If white Texans have a much higher rate of crime than some other country, and a bunch of  white Texans mover to that country, the odds are that country will be introducing more crime into their country. That's just the odds of it and color or location does not matter, legal or illegal does not matter. 

Maybe google something like, "do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" and see what you come up with. 

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair...

I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.

You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair enough that’s a hypothesis (even though you treat it less like ‘may’ and more like ‘do’ with your assertion that people are tired of it).

The problem is that it’s not self-evidently true.  And we can actually test it.

For example, as mentioned previously Texas has a large population of illegal immigrants from countries with significantly higher violent-crime rates than the United States. If your hypothesis is generally correct, we’d expect to see higher violent-crime rates among that population.

Yet studies of Texas have found the opposite.  Illegal immigrants have lower violent-crime rates than native-born Americans.

So when you tell me to Google whether violent people remain violent after relocating, you’re shifting from individuals to populations again.

Of course a violent individual who relocates may remain violent. Nobody disputes that.

The question is whether immigrant populations from high crime countries commit more violent crime after arriving.

That’s the claim you’ve been making all along, and it’s the claim the Texas data doesn’t seem to support.  
 


 

I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's just math, so if 1k individuals per 100k population commit violent crimes, then when you let 100k people into your country from those regions, you may be introducing 1k individuals that commit crimes. 

Just google that question and report back your findings. It would make no sense for me to act as a middleman between yourself and actual information from professionals. You shouldn't automatically believe what you read on the internet. I'm helping you search out information that's more valid than what you'd find in a dirt bike forum. What is the reason to avoid a simple google search that would have taken far less effort than each reply here? 

3
APLMAN99
Posts
12464
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Location
Tualatin, OR US
Fantasy
6/13/2026 2:53pm
byke wrote:
No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime...

No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime per capita and when people from a region with extremely high violent crime (like Sudan) come to your region with much lower crime, then you may be introducing more violent crime into your region.....and please pay attention because here is the core point of what I'm saying.....and.....people are growing tired of it, and if politicians continue to ignore that growing resentment, people will lose confidence in governments, and it can be extremely difficult to get back.

If white Texans have a much higher rate of crime than some other country, and a bunch of  white Texans mover to that country, the odds are that country will be introducing more crime into their country. That's just the odds of it and color or location does not matter, legal or illegal does not matter. 

Maybe google something like, "do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" and see what you come up with. 

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair...

I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.

You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair enough that’s a hypothesis (even though you treat it less like ‘may’ and more like ‘do’ with your assertion that people are tired of it).

The problem is that it’s not self-evidently true.  And we can actually test it.

For example, as mentioned previously Texas has a large population of illegal immigrants from countries with significantly higher violent-crime rates than the United States. If your hypothesis is generally correct, we’d expect to see higher violent-crime rates among that population.

Yet studies of Texas have found the opposite.  Illegal immigrants have lower violent-crime rates than native-born Americans.

So when you tell me to Google whether violent people remain violent after relocating, you’re shifting from individuals to populations again.

Of course a violent individual who relocates may remain violent. Nobody disputes that.

The question is whether immigrant populations from high crime countries commit more violent crime after arriving.

That’s the claim you’ve been making all along, and it’s the claim the Texas data doesn’t seem to support.  
 


 

byke wrote:
I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's...

I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's just math, so if 1k individuals per 100k population commit violent crimes, then when you let 100k people into your country from those regions, you may be introducing 1k individuals that commit crimes. 

Just google that question and report back your findings. It would make no sense for me to act as a middleman between yourself and actual information from professionals. You shouldn't automatically believe what you read on the internet. I'm helping you search out information that's more valid than what you'd find in a dirt bike forum. What is the reason to avoid a simple google search that would have taken far less effort than each reply here? 

No, that's not 'just math'.  That's an assumption.  

You're assuming the immigrants are a representative sample of the population they came from.

If 1,000 out of 100,000 people in Country X commit violent crimes, it doesn't automatically follow that 100,000 immigrants from Country X will contain 1,000 violent criminals.

Depending on who emigrates, it could be fewer. It could be more. In theory, it could even be zero.

That's why we don't have to speculate. We can look at actual crime rates among immigrant populations after they arrive. When researchers did that in Texas, they found lower violent-crime rates than among native-born Americans.

2
6/13/2026 3:10pm
byke wrote:
No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime...

No individual crime is evidence of anything. This isn't the hasty generalization fallacy. What I'm saying is simple; there is a global index of violent crime per capita and when people from a region with extremely high violent crime (like Sudan) come to your region with much lower crime, then you may be introducing more violent crime into your region.....and please pay attention because here is the core point of what I'm saying.....and.....people are growing tired of it, and if politicians continue to ignore that growing resentment, people will lose confidence in governments, and it can be extremely difficult to get back.

If white Texans have a much higher rate of crime than some other country, and a bunch of  white Texans mover to that country, the odds are that country will be introducing more crime into their country. That's just the odds of it and color or location does not matter, legal or illegal does not matter. 

Maybe google something like, "do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" and see what you come up with. 

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair...

I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.

You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair enough that’s a hypothesis (even though you treat it less like ‘may’ and more like ‘do’ with your assertion that people are tired of it).

The problem is that it’s not self-evidently true.  And we can actually test it.

For example, as mentioned previously Texas has a large population of illegal immigrants from countries with significantly higher violent-crime rates than the United States. If your hypothesis is generally correct, we’d expect to see higher violent-crime rates among that population.

Yet studies of Texas have found the opposite.  Illegal immigrants have lower violent-crime rates than native-born Americans.

So when you tell me to Google whether violent people remain violent after relocating, you’re shifting from individuals to populations again.

Of course a violent individual who relocates may remain violent. Nobody disputes that.

The question is whether immigrant populations from high crime countries commit more violent crime after arriving.

That’s the claim you’ve been making all along, and it’s the claim the Texas data doesn’t seem to support.  
 


 

byke wrote:
I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's...

I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's just math, so if 1k individuals per 100k population commit violent crimes, then when you let 100k people into your country from those regions, you may be introducing 1k individuals that commit crimes. 

Just google that question and report back your findings. It would make no sense for me to act as a middleman between yourself and actual information from professionals. You shouldn't automatically believe what you read on the internet. I'm helping you search out information that's more valid than what you'd find in a dirt bike forum. What is the reason to avoid a simple google search that would have taken far less effort than each reply here? 

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?"   I figured I was missing something.  

 

I got the answers I expected based off Your argument

 

Research shows that individuals who commit violent acts often continue displaying aggression even after relocating to safer, more peaceful areas, as persistent behavioral patterns, trauma, and a learned "culture of honor" frequently travel with the offender. However, the likelihood of recidivism heavily depends on the individual's specific circumstances.

Factors influencing continued violence include:
  • Cultural and Behavioral Habits: Studies on migration patterns reveal that individuals from historically dangerous regions often bring a "toughness" adaptation—such as heightened defensiveness and a tendency to resolve disputes through violence—which persists regardless of where they live. [1, 2]
  • Distrust of Authorities: Because they may not trust local police or legal systems in their new environment to protect them, these individuals often continue relying on self-help, which escalates conflict. [1, 2]
  • Prior Criminal History: Recidivism data indicates that violent offenders are statistically more likely to reoffend than non-violent offenders. [1]
  • Trauma and Desensitization: Prolonged exposure to extreme violence can lead to emotional desensitization, making violent reactions a default response mechanism even in peaceful settings. [1]

 

And Also 

Despite these trends, relocation can also act as a circuit breaker. Studies following natural experiments—such as residents displaced by Hurricane Katrina—found that moving away can significantly reduce recidivism by severing criminogenic ties and separating individuals from the specific social networks driving their criminal behavior. [1, 2, 3]
The transition to non-violence is generally more successful when individuals receive robust community support, secure employment, and establish stable living arrangements. [1, 2, 3]
 
 

 

2
1
byke
Posts
3029
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
6/13/2026 3:38pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair...

I think we’re finally getting to the actual disagreement.

You keep saying that people from higher-crime countries ‘may be introducing more violent crime’ into lower-crime countries. Fair enough that’s a hypothesis (even though you treat it less like ‘may’ and more like ‘do’ with your assertion that people are tired of it).

The problem is that it’s not self-evidently true.  And we can actually test it.

For example, as mentioned previously Texas has a large population of illegal immigrants from countries with significantly higher violent-crime rates than the United States. If your hypothesis is generally correct, we’d expect to see higher violent-crime rates among that population.

Yet studies of Texas have found the opposite.  Illegal immigrants have lower violent-crime rates than native-born Americans.

So when you tell me to Google whether violent people remain violent after relocating, you’re shifting from individuals to populations again.

Of course a violent individual who relocates may remain violent. Nobody disputes that.

The question is whether immigrant populations from high crime countries commit more violent crime after arriving.

That’s the claim you’ve been making all along, and it’s the claim the Texas data doesn’t seem to support.  
 


 

byke wrote:
I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's...

I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's just math, so if 1k individuals per 100k population commit violent crimes, then when you let 100k people into your country from those regions, you may be introducing 1k individuals that commit crimes. 

Just google that question and report back your findings. It would make no sense for me to act as a middleman between yourself and actual information from professionals. You shouldn't automatically believe what you read on the internet. I'm helping you search out information that's more valid than what you'd find in a dirt bike forum. What is the reason to avoid a simple google search that would have taken far less effort than each reply here? 

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" ...

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?"   I figured I was missing something.  

 

I got the answers I expected based off Your argument

 

Research shows that individuals who commit violent acts often continue displaying aggression even after relocating to safer, more peaceful areas, as persistent behavioral patterns, trauma, and a learned "culture of honor" frequently travel with the offender. However, the likelihood of recidivism heavily depends on the individual's specific circumstances.

Factors influencing continued violence include:
  • Cultural and Behavioral Habits: Studies on migration patterns reveal that individuals from historically dangerous regions often bring a "toughness" adaptation—such as heightened defensiveness and a tendency to resolve disputes through violence—which persists regardless of where they live. [1, 2]
  • Distrust of Authorities: Because they may not trust local police or legal systems in their new environment to protect them, these individuals often continue relying on self-help, which escalates conflict. [1, 2]
  • Prior Criminal History: Recidivism data indicates that violent offenders are statistically more likely to reoffend than non-violent offenders. [1]
  • Trauma and Desensitization: Prolonged exposure to extreme violence can lead to emotional desensitization, making violent reactions a default response mechanism even in peaceful settings. [1]

 

And Also 

Despite these trends, relocation can also act as a circuit breaker. Studies following natural experiments—such as residents displaced by Hurricane Katrina—found that moving away can significantly reduce recidivism by severing criminogenic ties and separating individuals from the specific social networks driving their criminal behavior. [1, 2, 3]
The transition to non-violence is generally more successful when individuals receive robust community support, secure employment, and establish stable living arrangements. [1, 2, 3]
 
 

 

Exactly as one would expect. Not sure where the controversy is.

ShellyMX
Posts
800
Joined
3/22/2026
Location
Smyrna, GA US
6/13/2026 3:44pm

Damn, get a room you two.

1
1
Chance1216
Posts
8558
Joined
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Location
Carson, CA US
6/13/2026 4:01pm

Ain’t missing nothing here as usual…. 

Soggy, just because it isn’t what you want to hear, doesn’t make it any less true. Referring to Booms comment. 

1
SEEMEFIRST
Posts
13742
Joined
8/21/2006
Location
Arlington, TX US
6/13/2026 4:07pm

Watch CBS News

 
 

At least 1 killed, 10 injured in shooting in Midland, Texas; suspect dead, officials say

By Mark Osborne

Updated on: June 13, 2026 / 1:37 PM EDT / CBS News

At least one person was killed and 10 others wounded in a shooting in Midland, Texas, on Friday morning, and the suspect is also dead, officials said.

As law enforcement responded to a report of shots fired in the southwestern part of the city at about 8 a.m. local time, the suspect opened fire on police and bystanders, the Texas Department of Public Safety said. The suspect, identified as Victor Mata Villarreal, barricaded himself in an abandoned veterinary clinic and died after a standoff with police, Texas DPS said. 

 

Mata literally translates to "kill" en Espanol.

There's some math.

1
1
vet323
Posts
3602
Joined
7/31/2010
Location
Lead, SD US
6/13/2026 4:41pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Calling my argument ‘intentional dishonesty’ is a convenient way to avoid answering it.You said this was about statistics, odds, and math. I responded that statistical claims...

Calling my argument ‘intentional dishonesty’ is a convenient way to avoid answering it.

You said this was about statistics, odds, and math. I responded that statistical claims require evidence.

Your reply wasn’t statistics, odds, or math. It was an accusation of dishonesty and a claim that there’s ‘nothing to prove’.

If my reasoning is wrong, show me where. Use the data. Accusing someone of bad faith is easier than defending an argument, but it isn’t the same thing.

byke wrote:
I'm saying that the false equivalent that you created, reads as intentional dishonesty. I believe you did that when you equated what I said with, "taking...

I'm saying that the false equivalent that you created, reads as intentional dishonesty. I believe you did that when you equated what I said with, "taking an extreme example and assuming it tells us something about millions of people who had nothing to do with it.". That it not even close to what I said. I said that when you bring in people from countries with more violence, you may be introducing people that are conditioned to solving their problems with violence. 

I'm not saying that if you have a rate 10 murders per 100k and you bring in millions of people that come from a place with a murder rate of 100 murders per 100k, that it's going to math out to 100k murders per 100k. That's silly. There's no logical way to assume millions of people had anything to do with it unless those millions make up the criminal percentage from billions, but I'm unaware of any country on earth with billions of immigrants. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
I never claimed you said every immigrant from a violent country is violent. What I said was that you’re using characteristics of a country or society...

I never claimed you said every immigrant from a violent country is violent. What I said was that you’re using characteristics of a country or society as evidence about the people coming from it.

For example:
“When the society of a nation is more violent than yours, bringing those people to your country may be introducing people that are conditioned to solving their problems with violence.”
Or:
“Past behavior is an excellent indicator of future behavior.”

The issue is that the ‘past behavior’ you’re referring to isn’t the behavior of the individual immigrant. It’s the behavior of the society they came from.  That’s why I asked for evidence.  

You’re making an inference from “this country has a high level of violence” to “people arriving from that country are more likely to be violent.”

That’s a statistical claim. It may be true, it may be false, or it may be true only in certain circumstances. But it isn’t self-evident, and asking for evidence isn’t dishonest.

Here's a random statistic:

"Attempted beheadings by Sudanese refugees are up 100% over last year."

2
ShellyMX
Posts
800
Joined
3/22/2026
Location
Smyrna, GA US
6/13/2026 4:47pm
vet323 wrote:

Here's a random statistic:

"Attempted beheadings by Sudanese refugees are up 100% over last year."

How dare you, vet. Perhaps you should go to South Africa and live with Boom. 😂

6/13/2026 4:54pm
byke wrote:
I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's...

I've already said that legal or illegal doesn't have anything to do with anything.

And I don't understand the "shifting from individuals to populations again" part. It's just math, so if 1k individuals per 100k population commit violent crimes, then when you let 100k people into your country from those regions, you may be introducing 1k individuals that commit crimes. 

Just google that question and report back your findings. It would make no sense for me to act as a middleman between yourself and actual information from professionals. You shouldn't automatically believe what you read on the internet. I'm helping you search out information that's more valid than what you'd find in a dirt bike forum. What is the reason to avoid a simple google search that would have taken far less effort than each reply here? 

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" ...

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?"   I figured I was missing something.  

 

I got the answers I expected based off Your argument

 

Research shows that individuals who commit violent acts often continue displaying aggression even after relocating to safer, more peaceful areas, as persistent behavioral patterns, trauma, and a learned "culture of honor" frequently travel with the offender. However, the likelihood of recidivism heavily depends on the individual's specific circumstances.

Factors influencing continued violence include:
  • Cultural and Behavioral Habits: Studies on migration patterns reveal that individuals from historically dangerous regions often bring a "toughness" adaptation—such as heightened defensiveness and a tendency to resolve disputes through violence—which persists regardless of where they live. [1, 2]
  • Distrust of Authorities: Because they may not trust local police or legal systems in their new environment to protect them, these individuals often continue relying on self-help, which escalates conflict. [1, 2]
  • Prior Criminal History: Recidivism data indicates that violent offenders are statistically more likely to reoffend than non-violent offenders. [1]
  • Trauma and Desensitization: Prolonged exposure to extreme violence can lead to emotional desensitization, making violent reactions a default response mechanism even in peaceful settings. [1]

 

And Also 

Despite these trends, relocation can also act as a circuit breaker. Studies following natural experiments—such as residents displaced by Hurricane Katrina—found that moving away can significantly reduce recidivism by severing criminogenic ties and separating individuals from the specific social networks driving their criminal behavior. [1, 2, 3]
The transition to non-violence is generally more successful when individuals receive robust community support, secure employment, and establish stable living arrangements. [1, 2, 3]
 
 

 

byke wrote:

Exactly as one would expect. Not sure where the controversy is.

You could also  say that people from violent areas statistically are less likely to commit acts of violence when relocated to a less violent area than when they stay in the area more prone to violence.   According to those studies that is also true. 

 

I don't think Alpman is arguing what You are saying.

 

He's arguing that the impact of moving along with the personalities  of the people that make the effort to make the move  deserve their own studies and stats  and shouldn't just be grouped into the same stats as the country the person is from.  Because while mathematically You may have a higher chance of a violent person  being from that country. That is not the same as the chances of a person that makes the move being a violent person. Making the effort to come to the US  and the types of people willing to make the move, and the impact the move has on them will impact those stats.  

 

He's talking in a broader more real life way. While You seem to be stuck on being correct about that narrow stat.  Of course my understanding of the arguments could be way off too. But Thats how I'm seeing it from the outside looking in.  Two people who are trying to get different things from the conversation they are having.

 

1
2
byke
Posts
3029
Joined
8/12/2015
Location
Auburn, CA US
6/13/2026 5:16pm
I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?" ...

I decided to google exactly what You said to google." do people that commit violent acts continue being violent when they relocate to more peaceful areas?"   I figured I was missing something.  

 

I got the answers I expected based off Your argument

 

Research shows that individuals who commit violent acts often continue displaying aggression even after relocating to safer, more peaceful areas, as persistent behavioral patterns, trauma, and a learned "culture of honor" frequently travel with the offender. However, the likelihood of recidivism heavily depends on the individual's specific circumstances.

Factors influencing continued violence include:
  • Cultural and Behavioral Habits: Studies on migration patterns reveal that individuals from historically dangerous regions often bring a "toughness" adaptation—such as heightened defensiveness and a tendency to resolve disputes through violence—which persists regardless of where they live. [1, 2]
  • Distrust of Authorities: Because they may not trust local police or legal systems in their new environment to protect them, these individuals often continue relying on self-help, which escalates conflict. [1, 2]
  • Prior Criminal History: Recidivism data indicates that violent offenders are statistically more likely to reoffend than non-violent offenders. [1]
  • Trauma and Desensitization: Prolonged exposure to extreme violence can lead to emotional desensitization, making violent reactions a default response mechanism even in peaceful settings. [1]

 

And Also 

Despite these trends, relocation can also act as a circuit breaker. Studies following natural experiments—such as residents displaced by Hurricane Katrina—found that moving away can significantly reduce recidivism by severing criminogenic ties and separating individuals from the specific social networks driving their criminal behavior. [1, 2, 3]
The transition to non-violence is generally more successful when individuals receive robust community support, secure employment, and establish stable living arrangements. [1, 2, 3]
 
 

 

byke wrote:

Exactly as one would expect. Not sure where the controversy is.

You could also  say that people from violent areas statistically are less likely to commit acts of violence when relocated to a less violent area than...

You could also  say that people from violent areas statistically are less likely to commit acts of violence when relocated to a less violent area than when they stay in the area more prone to violence.   According to those studies that is also true. 

 

I don't think Alpman is arguing what You are saying.

 

He's arguing that the impact of moving along with the personalities  of the people that make the effort to make the move  deserve their own studies and stats  and shouldn't just be grouped into the same stats as the country the person is from.  Because while mathematically You may have a higher chance of a violent person  being from that country. That is not the same as the chances of a person that makes the move being a violent person. Making the effort to come to the US  and the types of people willing to make the move, and the impact the move has on them will impact those stats.  

 

He's talking in a broader more real life way. While You seem to be stuck on being correct about that narrow stat.  Of course my understanding of the arguments could be way off too. But Thats how I'm seeing it from the outside looking in.  Two people who are trying to get different things from the conversation they are having.

 

Less than where they were they were from, that would seem to make sense, since a new country with much lower crime would be far more likely to have provisions in place to stop repeated crime. In first world countries it's hard to kill someone, go to prison, get out, kill someone, go to prison, get out, etc. etc.

Agree there's a little asterisk in there that we discussed earlier, which is that people may be moving to get away from the violence in their respective population, but every bit as much, if not more, throughout history people have moved for sheer economic reasons. With them, that asterisk diminishes.

We're definitely missing each other. I can tell it's happening when he adds something that he's offended by which I've never said. Like referencing illegals after I've said legal or illegal doesn't matter, or how he thought I was making claims about millions of people after talking about the crime rates of other countries, which is always a per capita measurement. 

2
AZ35
Posts
2938
Joined
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Location
Peoria, AZ US
Fantasy
6/13/2026 5:33pm

Some of you have too much free time.... 

3

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