‘Seattle can’t survive this’: Critics hammer socialist mayor after Starbucks reversal

Kenny Banyan
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3797
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6/5/2026 7:26pm
SEEMEFIRST wrote:
Well, a big part of the problem is everyone thinks they need 2,500 Sq. Ft homes.We lived in what I guess was 1,000 sq. ft. house...

Well, a big part of the problem is everyone thinks they need 2,500 Sq. Ft homes.

We lived in what I guess was 1,000 sq. ft. house when I was born. No central A/C, no garage, basic appliances, and no dryer. We got by fine.

 If they started making those again, maybe people could afford what was once called a "Starter Home".

JAFO92 wrote:
Ditto that.  Our place in Corpus was about the same as you cited about 1000sqft.   Built during WW2, on piers, wood floor and shiplap walls...

Ditto that.  Our place in Corpus was about the same as you cited about 1000sqft.   Built during WW2, on piers, wood floor and shiplap walls and roof deck.  Siding on outside was asbestos shingles. One bathroom.  No A/C just an attic fan.  Heat was two 'in the wall' gas heater dealios that had ceramic blocks in them, one in the living room, one in the kitchen.   You just froze in your bedroom in winter and sweat like a mofo all summer laying next to the open window praying for a breeze.    '67 Ford Falcon wagon for the entire family with three on the tree.

 

Most of my life raised in a 900 sq foot home. I bought my home in 86 it’s 1100 sq feet with a single garage and 3 bedrooms, paid 55 grand for it new. Raised 4 kids in it and the wife and I are still here 40 years later. 

3
APLMAN99
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6/5/2026 7:57pm
TeamGreen wrote:

Big City America

One Giant Cluster-Fuck

I wonder what the common aspect of all that fail is? 

APLMAN99 wrote:

That they have nowhere near the violent crime rate as many rural counties?  

TeamGreen wrote:
Sometimes I think you drink and then post.You go ahead and do your usual “turn up your nose” at the country folk and we’ll reminisce about...

Sometimes I think you drink and then post.

You go ahead and do your usual “turn up your nose” at the country folk and we’ll reminisce about Chicago.

Geezus, you sure try hard; and, fail. 

Hers one for you: how much crime in Big City America is ACTUALLY reported?

You’re our own Charles Schumer. 

You have a predictable pattern. Whenever someone questions one of your assertions, your first response is almost never to explain or defend it. It’s usually to insult the person asking the question.

In this case I asked whether many ‘Big Cities’ having lower violent crime rates than a number of rural counties was your ‘common characteristic’. Instead of answering, you accused me of being drunk, looking down on country folk, and being Charles Schumer.

The idea that I’m ‘turning up my nose at country folk’ is pretty amusing. I grew up in a ‘town’ that had an elementary school with grades 1-6, three teachers, and I spent an hour each way on a bus getting to junior high and high school. Rural life isn’t something I read about or cosplayed, it’s how I grew up.

What’s interesting is that after all of that, you still haven’t answered your own question. I sarcastically, but correctly, suggested one common characteristic. You responded with insults.

So what is the common characteristic you were referring to?


 

6
ShellyMX
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Smyrna, GA US
6/5/2026 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2026 6:31am

Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.

Addendum: I’ve never seen someone fail so much in doing so as well.

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2
Kenny Banyan
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Seattle, WA US
6/5/2026 8:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2026 8:52pm
ShellyMX wrote:
Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.Addendum: I’ve never seen someone...

Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.

Addendum: I’ve never seen someone fail so much in doing so as well.

Not to mention he says Greenie has a pattern. Pot meet kettle……🙄

2
2

The Shop

ShellyMX
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Smyrna, GA US
6/5/2026 9:00pm
Not to mention he says Greenie has a pattern. Pot meet kettle……🙄

Not to mention he says Greenie has a pattern. Pot meet kettle……🙄

No Shit!!!😂😂

2
2
vet323
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3592
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Location
Lead, SD US
6/6/2026 12:41am
APLMAN99 wrote:
For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker...

For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker pay. After top rates were dramatically reduced beginning in the 1980s, income concentration and executive compensation rose dramatically. Whether the tax cuts were the cause, a contributing factor, or merely coincidental is debatable. The historical correlation is not.

I’m not claiming tax rates are the only cause of inequality. I’m observing that inequality remained relatively stable during decades of very high top rates and accelerated after those rates were dramatically reduced.
 

image 3133.png?VersionId=U5DMJwNvCtdy

 

image 3134

 

vet323 wrote:
In 1960, the top 1% paid 13% of federal income taxes. Due to deductions and loopholes, the top 1% paid an effective tax rate (the only...

In 1960, the top 1% paid 13% of federal income taxes. Due to deductions and loopholes, the top 1% paid an effective tax rate (the only number that actually means anything) of around 43%. 

The top 1% nowadays only pay about 39% of federal income taxes.

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying...

So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying only 13% of all the federal income taxes paid?  It sounds like you are saying that lowering the highest marginal tax rates hurt the top 1%......

I'm not arguing that higher marginal rates made the wealthy worse off. In fact, one could argue the opposite. My question is whether the very high postwar marginal rates encouraged wealthy individuals and corporations to reinvest profits into domestic expansion, equipment, R&D, and employees rather than extracting them as personal compensation or moving capital elsewhere.

The rich are unquestionably richer today than they were in 1960. The question is whether the incentives created by the tax code changed where the gains went and how they were used.  Something is causing this rapid expansion between the wealthy and the 'regular folk', and this is likely at least a pretty good sized part of it.  

No. I didn't say any of that. 

Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were paying in 1960 were bullshit.

If you are incapable of using real numbers, having a discussion about math with you is pointless. 

 

1
1
APLMAN99
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6/6/2026 5:44am
vet323 wrote:
In 1960, the top 1% paid 13% of federal income taxes. Due to deductions and loopholes, the top 1% paid an effective tax rate (the only...

In 1960, the top 1% paid 13% of federal income taxes. Due to deductions and loopholes, the top 1% paid an effective tax rate (the only number that actually means anything) of around 43%. 

The top 1% nowadays only pay about 39% of federal income taxes.

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying...

So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying only 13% of all the federal income taxes paid?  It sounds like you are saying that lowering the highest marginal tax rates hurt the top 1%......

I'm not arguing that higher marginal rates made the wealthy worse off. In fact, one could argue the opposite. My question is whether the very high postwar marginal rates encouraged wealthy individuals and corporations to reinvest profits into domestic expansion, equipment, R&D, and employees rather than extracting them as personal compensation or moving capital elsewhere.

The rich are unquestionably richer today than they were in 1960. The question is whether the incentives created by the tax code changed where the gains went and how they were used.  Something is causing this rapid expansion between the wealthy and the 'regular folk', and this is likely at least a pretty good sized part of it.  

vet323 wrote:
No. I didn't say any of that. Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were...

No. I didn't say any of that. 

Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were paying in 1960 were bullshit.

If you are incapable of using real numbers, having a discussion about math with you is pointless. 

 

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.

You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.

If those rates were largely irrelevant, why did income concentration and CEO compensation begin moving in the opposite direction almost immediately after they were reduced?

That’s the correlation I posted.


 

1
3
vet323
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3592
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Lead, SD US
6/6/2026 8:32am
APLMAN99 wrote:
So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying...

So the top 1% should be clamoring to go back to the higher marginal tax rate, correct?  So they could get back down to the paying only 13% of all the federal income taxes paid?  It sounds like you are saying that lowering the highest marginal tax rates hurt the top 1%......

I'm not arguing that higher marginal rates made the wealthy worse off. In fact, one could argue the opposite. My question is whether the very high postwar marginal rates encouraged wealthy individuals and corporations to reinvest profits into domestic expansion, equipment, R&D, and employees rather than extracting them as personal compensation or moving capital elsewhere.

The rich are unquestionably richer today than they were in 1960. The question is whether the incentives created by the tax code changed where the gains went and how they were used.  Something is causing this rapid expansion between the wealthy and the 'regular folk', and this is likely at least a pretty good sized part of it.  

vet323 wrote:
No. I didn't say any of that. Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were...

No. I didn't say any of that. 

Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were paying in 1960 were bullshit.

If you are incapable of using real numbers, having a discussion about math with you is pointless. 

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.If...

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.

You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.

If those rates were largely irrelevant, why did income concentration and CEO compensation begin moving in the opposite direction almost immediately after they were reduced?

That’s the correlation I posted.


 

You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite the fact that virtually nobody was ever taxed at that rate suggests that you are willing to lie about "historical facts" so that your position makes sense. 

2
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APLMAN99
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6/6/2026 8:58am
vet323 wrote:
No. I didn't say any of that. Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were...

No. I didn't say any of that. 

Mostly what I was attempting to get across to you was that the rates you claimed the top brackets were paying in 1960 were bullshit.

If you are incapable of using real numbers, having a discussion about math with you is pointless. 

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.If...

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.

You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.

If those rates were largely irrelevant, why did income concentration and CEO compensation begin moving in the opposite direction almost immediately after they were reduced?

That’s the correlation I posted.


 

vet323 wrote:
You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite...

You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite the fact that virtually nobody was ever taxed at that rate suggests that you are willing to lie about "historical facts" so that your position makes sense. 

Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it.

I’ve consistently referred to the marginal rate and I’ve repeatedly acknowledged the difference between marginal and effective rates.

At this point, you’re not ‘correcting’ my position. You’re substituting your own version of it and then attacking that instead.

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact. The effective rate was lower. That’s also a historical fact.

Now that we’ve established the position I actually hold, do you have an explanation for the correlation I posted, or would you prefer to keep arguing against a position I’ve never taken?

5
Kenny Banyan
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Seattle, WA US
6/6/2026 10:33am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2026 10:33am

tmp 21.gif?VersionId=urMPRShlihAdJ63eNJwEPpEgFV7YJC

G-man
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Mesa, AZ US
6/6/2026 11:09am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2026 11:12am
ShellyMX wrote:
Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.Addendum: I’ve never seen someone...

Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.

Addendum: I’ve never seen someone fail so much in doing so as well.

Ha ha ha ha I think it's hilarious and sad at the same time the amount of time and effort he spends on here "correcting" people with his opinions and Google assistance.  

In the grand scheme of things, we are on a Motocross forum--who gives a shit about any of this bs in non-moto? 

I'd be more interested to hear a ride report with photos from Kevin.  That would IMPRESS me, but in the over 20 plus years he's been on here arguing with people over nonsense, never once have I seen a photo of him riding. 

 

"Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it."

 

Does anybody have the number to Judge Judy? I think we have a good case! 😂🤣

 

3
1
vet323
Posts
3592
Joined
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Location
Lead, SD US
6/6/2026 12:28pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.If...

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact.

You’re talking about effective rates. I’m talking about marginal rates and the incentives they create.

If those rates were largely irrelevant, why did income concentration and CEO compensation begin moving in the opposite direction almost immediately after they were reduced?

That’s the correlation I posted.


 

vet323 wrote:
You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite...

You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite the fact that virtually nobody was ever taxed at that rate suggests that you are willing to lie about "historical facts" so that your position makes sense. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective...

Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it.

I’ve consistently referred to the marginal rate and I’ve repeatedly acknowledged the difference between marginal and effective rates.

At this point, you’re not ‘correcting’ my position. You’re substituting your own version of it and then attacking that instead.

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact. The effective rate was lower. That’s also a historical fact.

Now that we’ve established the position I actually hold, do you have an explanation for the correlation I posted, or would you prefer to keep arguing against a position I’ve never taken?

The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. 

Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up in a discussion about historical tax rates is disingenuous. You just now said you understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates.

You're offended that I suggested you were lying. What word would you use to describe someone who knows the truth about something, but claims a falsehood instead?

 

1
1
APLMAN99
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Tualatin, OR US
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6/6/2026 1:15pm
vet323 wrote:
You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite...

You are obviously intelligent enough to understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates. The fact that you keep returning to that 91% number despite the fact that virtually nobody was ever taxed at that rate suggests that you are willing to lie about "historical facts" so that your position makes sense. 

APLMAN99 wrote:
Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective...

Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it.

I’ve consistently referred to the marginal rate and I’ve repeatedly acknowledged the difference between marginal and effective rates.

At this point, you’re not ‘correcting’ my position. You’re substituting your own version of it and then attacking that instead.

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact. The effective rate was lower. That’s also a historical fact.

Now that we’ve established the position I actually hold, do you have an explanation for the correlation I posted, or would you prefer to keep arguing against a position I’ve never taken?

vet323 wrote:
The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up...

The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. 

Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up in a discussion about historical tax rates is disingenuous. You just now said you understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates.

You're offended that I suggested you were lying. What word would you use to describe someone who knows the truth about something, but claims a falsehood instead?

 

So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each week are actually ticketed for exceeding it, does that mean the speed limit doesn't exist?

Of course not. The limit still influences behavior. Many people drive differently because it's there, even if they never receive a ticket.

The same applies to marginal tax rates. A 91% top marginal rate influences decisions about compensation, distributions, deductions, investments, and reinvestment whether or not many people actually paid 91%.  You keep acting as though "few people paid 91%" proves the rate was irrelevant. If it was irrelevant, why was there such a political effort to reduce it? And if it has no effect on behavior, why not restore it?

The entire case for lowering top marginal rates was that people respond to incentives. You're simultaneously arguing that incentives matter and that this particular incentive didn't.

Which is it?

I've never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate. I've consistently referred to the marginal rate and the incentives it creates. The question you've still avoided is why income concentration and executive compensation began rising sharply after those rates came down.

6
APLMAN99
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6/6/2026 1:26pm
ShellyMX wrote:
Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.Addendum: I’ve never seen someone...

Once again, I have to comment that I have never seen any human triy so hard to sound intelligent other than Kevin.

Addendum: I’ve never seen someone fail so much in doing so as well.

G-man wrote:
Ha ha ha ha I think it's hilarious and sad at the same time the amount of time and effort he spends on here "correcting" people...

Ha ha ha ha I think it's hilarious and sad at the same time the amount of time and effort he spends on here "correcting" people with his opinions and Google assistance.  

In the grand scheme of things, we are on a Motocross forum--who gives a shit about any of this bs in non-moto? 

I'd be more interested to hear a ride report with photos from Kevin.  That would IMPRESS me, but in the over 20 plus years he's been on here arguing with people over nonsense, never once have I seen a photo of him riding. 

 

"Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it."

 

Does anybody have the number to Judge Judy? I think we have a good case! 😂🤣

 

Gary, you spend far too much time thinking about me.  I definitely feel guilty for not paying you rent for the head space......

I actually made a conscious decision to not engage you that much back in February 2021 when you wrote me that message about why you act out to much when anyone doesn't agree with you completely.  I understand how your upbringing formed you and caused that, so I've taken it rather easy, even when you say some seriously stupid shit.  

5
ShellyMX
Posts
610
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Location
Smyrna, GA US
6/6/2026 1:27pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Gary, you spend far too much time thinking about me.  I definitely feel guilty for not paying you rent for the head space......I actually made a...

Gary, you spend far too much time thinking about me.  I definitely feel guilty for not paying you rent for the head space......

I actually made a conscious decision to not engage you that much back in February 2021 when you wrote me that message about why you act out to much when anyone doesn't agree with you completely.  I understand how your upbringing formed you and caused that, so I've taken it rather easy, even when you say some seriously stupid shit.  

Just when I think Kevin can’t make more of an ass out of himself, he goes ahead and proves me wrong! If this isn’t textbook pot calling the kettle black. You really have some personality disorders, Kevin. Seek help. And don’t forget to tell the doctor that you’re smarter than them.

2
2
soggy
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UT US
6/6/2026 1:38pm

You guys need a room?

5
vet323
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Location
Lead, SD US
6/6/2026 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2026 2:10pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective...

Accusing someone of lying is a serious charge.

To support it, you’d first have to quote where I claimed all wealthy people were paying a 91% effective tax rate.

You can’t, because I never said it.

I’ve consistently referred to the marginal rate and I’ve repeatedly acknowledged the difference between marginal and effective rates.

At this point, you’re not ‘correcting’ my position. You’re substituting your own version of it and then attacking that instead.

The top marginal rate in 1960 was 91%. That’s a historical fact. The effective rate was lower. That’s also a historical fact.

Now that we’ve established the position I actually hold, do you have an explanation for the correlation I posted, or would you prefer to keep arguing against a position I’ve never taken?

vet323 wrote:
The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up...

The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. 

Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up in a discussion about historical tax rates is disingenuous. You just now said you understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates.

You're offended that I suggested you were lying. What word would you use to describe someone who knows the truth about something, but claims a falsehood instead?

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each...

So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each week are actually ticketed for exceeding it, does that mean the speed limit doesn't exist?

Of course not. The limit still influences behavior. Many people drive differently because it's there, even if they never receive a ticket.

The same applies to marginal tax rates. A 91% top marginal rate influences decisions about compensation, distributions, deductions, investments, and reinvestment whether or not many people actually paid 91%.  You keep acting as though "few people paid 91%" proves the rate was irrelevant. If it was irrelevant, why was there such a political effort to reduce it? And if it has no effect on behavior, why not restore it?

The entire case for lowering top marginal rates was that people respond to incentives. You're simultaneously arguing that incentives matter and that this particular incentive didn't.

Which is it?

I've never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate. I've consistently referred to the marginal rate and the incentives it creates. The question you've still avoided is why income concentration and executive compensation began rising sharply after those rates came down.

You aren't trying to understand anything.

I'm not making an argument. I'm correcting the silly point you were attempting to make by stating facts with context.

I do appreciate the humor of your tortured speed limit analogy, no matter how dumb it seems.

Edit: "I  never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate." You're right, you didnt. That's because you left the word "effective" out of your original post (and your bogus graph did, too I believe). 

You didn't claim they paid a 91% effective rate, you were attempting to claim they paid 91% income tax.

 

2
APLMAN99
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Location
Tualatin, OR US
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6/6/2026 2:36pm
vet323 wrote:
The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up...

The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. 

Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up in a discussion about historical tax rates is disingenuous. You just now said you understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates.

You're offended that I suggested you were lying. What word would you use to describe someone who knows the truth about something, but claims a falsehood instead?

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each...

So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each week are actually ticketed for exceeding it, does that mean the speed limit doesn't exist?

Of course not. The limit still influences behavior. Many people drive differently because it's there, even if they never receive a ticket.

The same applies to marginal tax rates. A 91% top marginal rate influences decisions about compensation, distributions, deductions, investments, and reinvestment whether or not many people actually paid 91%.  You keep acting as though "few people paid 91%" proves the rate was irrelevant. If it was irrelevant, why was there such a political effort to reduce it? And if it has no effect on behavior, why not restore it?

The entire case for lowering top marginal rates was that people respond to incentives. You're simultaneously arguing that incentives matter and that this particular incentive didn't.

Which is it?

I've never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate. I've consistently referred to the marginal rate and the incentives it creates. The question you've still avoided is why income concentration and executive compensation began rising sharply after those rates came down.

vet323 wrote:
You aren't trying to understand anything.I'm not making an argument. I'm correcting the silly point you were attempting to make by stating facts with context.I do...

You aren't trying to understand anything.

I'm not making an argument. I'm correcting the silly point you were attempting to make by stating facts with context.

I do appreciate the humor of your tortured speed limit analogy, no matter how dumb it seems.

Edit: "I  never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate." You're right, you didnt. That's because you left the word "effective" out of your original post (and your bogus graph did, too I believe). 

You didn't claim they paid a 91% effective rate, you were attempting to claim they paid 91% income tax.

 

You keep saying you're not making an argument, you're "correcting a silly point."

Okay. What exactly are you correcting?

I've never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate. I've repeatedly distinguished between marginal and effective rates.

The 91% top marginal rate existed. That's a fact.

The only way my point is "silly" is if your position is that the 91% rate was irrelevant. But that's not a correction, that's an argument.

So which is it? Are you correcting a factual error I made, or are you arguing that top marginal tax rates don't meaningfully influence behavior?

Because those are two very different things.

3
APLMAN99
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6/6/2026 2:41pm
vet323 wrote:
The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up...

The 91% marginal rate was in effect non-existant. 

Nobody paid it. It didn't exist as a tax rate that was imposed on anyone. You bringing it up in a discussion about historical tax rates is disingenuous. You just now said you understand the difference between marginal and effective tax rates.

You're offended that I suggested you were lying. What word would you use to describe someone who knows the truth about something, but claims a falsehood instead?

 

APLMAN99 wrote:
So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each...

So let me make sure I understand your argument.  If a stretch of highway has a 70 mph speed limit, but only a few drivers each week are actually ticketed for exceeding it, does that mean the speed limit doesn't exist?

Of course not. The limit still influences behavior. Many people drive differently because it's there, even if they never receive a ticket.

The same applies to marginal tax rates. A 91% top marginal rate influences decisions about compensation, distributions, deductions, investments, and reinvestment whether or not many people actually paid 91%.  You keep acting as though "few people paid 91%" proves the rate was irrelevant. If it was irrelevant, why was there such a political effort to reduce it? And if it has no effect on behavior, why not restore it?

The entire case for lowering top marginal rates was that people respond to incentives. You're simultaneously arguing that incentives matter and that this particular incentive didn't.

Which is it?

I've never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate. I've consistently referred to the marginal rate and the incentives it creates. The question you've still avoided is why income concentration and executive compensation began rising sharply after those rates came down.

vet323 wrote:
You aren't trying to understand anything.I'm not making an argument. I'm correcting the silly point you were attempting to make by stating facts with context.I do...

You aren't trying to understand anything.

I'm not making an argument. I'm correcting the silly point you were attempting to make by stating facts with context.

I do appreciate the humor of your tortured speed limit analogy, no matter how dumb it seems.

Edit: "I  never claimed wealthy people paid a 91% effective rate." You're right, you didnt. That's because you left the word "effective" out of your original post (and your bogus graph did, too I believe). 

You didn't claim they paid a 91% effective rate, you were attempting to claim they paid 91% income tax.

 

I went back and looked at my original post.  You are incorrect.  I was very clearly talking about "top tax rates", which clearly differentiates them from the lower marginal rates.  The "bogus" graph very clearly says "Top Marginal Tax Rate".

You are inventing fantasies in your head and then arguing against them.  
 

image 3165.png?VersionId=MyjFNinkwYuwEAZsT8Cm2wzKOs6Nt.D
3
vet323
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6/6/2026 2:49pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker...

For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker pay. After top rates were dramatically reduced beginning in the 1980s, income concentration and executive compensation rose dramatically. Whether the tax cuts were the cause, a contributing factor, or merely coincidental is debatable. The historical correlation is not.

I’m not claiming tax rates are the only cause of inequality. I’m observing that inequality remained relatively stable during decades of very high top rates and accelerated after those rates were dramatically reduced.
 

image 3133.png?VersionId=U5DMJwNvCtdy

 

image 3134

 

You're going to try and say that this post wasn't making a claim that income taxes were "very high"? And that your graph doesn't say that income taxes for top earners were at 90%+ in 1960?

Where are the words "effective tax rate" in this post?

3
vet323
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6/6/2026 2:53pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2026 3:15pm

This effective tax rate graph is way more honest than yours:

Edited for spelling.

17807826567511188387551466520656 0
3
APLMAN99
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6/6/2026 2:53pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker...

For roughly 35 years after WWII, America had very high top tax rates, relatively low income concentration, and CEO pay that was tens of times worker pay. After top rates were dramatically reduced beginning in the 1980s, income concentration and executive compensation rose dramatically. Whether the tax cuts were the cause, a contributing factor, or merely coincidental is debatable. The historical correlation is not.

I’m not claiming tax rates are the only cause of inequality. I’m observing that inequality remained relatively stable during decades of very high top rates and accelerated after those rates were dramatically reduced.
 

image 3133.png?VersionId=U5DMJwNvCtdy

 

image 3134

 

vet323 wrote:
You're going to try and say that this post wasn't making a claim that income taxes were "very high"? And that your graph doesn't say that...

You're going to try and say that this post wasn't making a claim that income taxes were "very high"? And that your graph doesn't say that income taxes for top earners were at 90%+ in 1960?

Where are the words "effective tax rate" in this post?

There isn't any "effective tax rate" in the post, because that wasn't what it was referring to.  Doh!

The post refers to the "top" tax rate.  It isn't saying whether a lot of people paid it or not, but it was there and it most certainly affected how higher income and wealth people used their money.  

Again, do you truly believe that the higher top marginal tax rates had zero effect on anything?

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ShellyMX
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6/6/2026 2:57pm

Kevin, just shut up and take the L.

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2
G-man
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6/6/2026 3:21pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
Gary, you spend far too much time thinking about me.  I definitely feel guilty for not paying you rent for the head space......I actually made a...

Gary, you spend far too much time thinking about me.  I definitely feel guilty for not paying you rent for the head space......

I actually made a conscious decision to not engage you that much back in February 2021 when you wrote me that message about why you act out to much when anyone doesn't agree with you completely.  I understand how your upbringing formed you and caused that, so I've taken it rather easy, even when you say some seriously stupid shit.  

Blah blah blah........ 😂

I don't even bother to read your drivel. I just can't believe how much time you spend on here trying to prove how smart you are and correct everybody. 🙄 It's like you're in some kind of college course and you are trying really hard to get that A and inpress the teacher. 

Take some deep breaths and please try to remember this is a MOTOCROSS forum, we're all not very smart. Otherwise we would not be riding motorcycles. Oh that's right you don't! 🤣😂

3
2
Chance1216
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6/6/2026 3:30pm

Battle of the graphs 😂 

IMG 5639 1
2
Kenny Banyan
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Seattle, WA US
6/6/2026 3:42pm
ShellyMX wrote:

Kevin, just shut up and take the L.

BONK! 😂

2
1
Kenny Banyan
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Seattle, WA US
6/6/2026 3:43pm
Chance1216 wrote:
Battle of the graphs 😂 

Battle of the graphs 😂 

IMG 5639 1

This thread is pure gold! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

4

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