Traction Control-Read and Discuss

RaceFace
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Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 6:57am
From MXA:

The following AMA rule is so poorly written that it doesn't actually ban much of anything. Read it carefully. Part 1.14 a says that "electronic devices specifically designed for traction control are prohibited." Does that mean that an electronic device that monitors fuel and the ignition and also has traction control would be legal? After all, it isn't specifically designed for traction control?

The second half of part a says that "This includes sensors that can determine front wheel speed, and any electronic control to the brake system." In fact, most traction control systems don't measure front wheel speed, but try to determine wheel spin at the rear wheel. They do this by monitoring rear wheel speed or runaway revs at the ignition box. The 1997 Honda CR250 had traction control installed stock in its black box. Honda touted it in their 1997 press literature. When it was pointed out to them that admitting you had traction control was a no-no, they never mentioned it again. But, do you think they removed the microprocessor that monitored runaway revs every 1/35th of a second and haven't used it, or improved it, over the last 14 years?

Traction control is banned because allowing it will raise the cost of racing and put the privateers at a bigger disadvantage. NASCAR has banned most electronic trickery...and to solve the problem, NASCAR supplies the black boxes to each team on race day (and the teams can't touch the black boxes). The AMA could pass a rule similar to this by providing each rider with a stock black box (plus a spare) each week and only allowing its limited electronics to be reprogrammed at the track. The black boxes would have to be returned after the race. This is the NASCAR method—but does the AMA or MX Sports have the gumption to do this?

It should be noted that data acquistion is not illegal...only transmitting back to the pits is not allowed. It can still be gathered and downloaded later. The modern electronics use GPS data to measure everything from speed to the height of jumps and all the data can be overlaid on a map of the track along with rpm, gear, fuel amount, throttle position and a myriad of others bits of info.

Additionally, rev limiters...even rev limiters that can be activated at the start to limit rpm at launch are not technically traction control...thus, holding the rpm down to 8000 rpm on the start and kicking it back to the normal map after the first shift is just a rev limiter. Perfectly legal under the AMA's porous rule book (which was only been weakened since it was written for the 1986 season—never strengthened).

Having different ignition and fuel maps for each gear is not illegal. The 2008 Honda CRF450 had different maps for each of its first three gears. Maps are not traction control...and if they have traction control built in, it is the AMA's job to sort that out. Good luck with that.

As far as the spirit of the law goes, most factory teams cheat (for example, they have neutral cut-off switches that retard their ignitions during sound test to keep their bikes quieter...but, in fact, the 2011 Yamaha YZ250 comes stock with this switch, so its not just on works bikes). However, the teams aren't cheating under the letter of the law because the AMA rules are subject to interpretation. History has proven that the AMA will not stand up for its rules...or if they do, it is only until someone powerful, like Ricky Carmichael, gets caught—then the punishment and eventually the rule itself are neutered. It's funny how fuel tests and sound tests mysterious disappeared in the last year or so?

So there you have it in a nutshell: (1) No one is cheating. (2) Everyone could get away with cheating if they wanted to. (3) The AMA rule is a third grade attempt to stop expensive technology from getting out of hand. (4) We have provided a solution that works. (5) No one will do anything because that is how they do things. (6) If the teams persist with their electronic tricks, you can expect rule 1.14a to fade into the sunset...unless we have the AMA and MX Sports confused with someone else.

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1/18/2011 9:16am
does it really matter? there wasnt traction control on the bike. nor where the electronics. so really this is pointless.
moto726
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1/18/2011 9:20am
This is pretty pointless, even if Stewart had "Traction control" it sure didn't help him win at all, he said it himself on the podium.
253
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1/18/2011 9:24am
does it really matter? there wasnt traction control on the bike. nor where the electronics. so really this is pointless.
Agreed.
CR250Rider
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1/18/2011 9:46am
How would the AMA know if a bike had it or not ?
Honda already admitted it in way back in 1997

"AMA Rule Bans Traction Control, But Doesn't The AMA Know That This Horse Has Already Left The Barn?"

The Shop

grover738
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1/18/2011 10:10am
So my POS 1997 CR250 had traction control? That's f'n cool. If only it could have cornered, I'd have been unbeatable in the C class!
3D
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1/18/2011 11:36am
They can't even fix a stupid ass displacement rule for 2 strokes. It's an obvious and somewhat easy fix and they can't do that. Computers are so far advanced and tunable in these bikes, the AMA doesn't have a chance. Just add this to the list of shit a privateer can't afford. I say fuck it, bring back the works bikes and let them run what they brung. It's basically like that now for the teams that are good at hiding trickery.

1/18/2011 11:38am
blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
RealityZ
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1/18/2011 11:53am

What would be the point of San Manuel running a rear wheel sensor in practice and then taking it off for the race?

pmcc
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1/18/2011 12:44pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 12:45pm
RealityZ wrote:

What would be the point of San Manuel running a rear wheel sensor in practice and then taking it off for the race?

I would think they could use the sensor to gather data so they can have the mapping adjusted for each part of the track, then during the night the computer bit could automatically adjust it to the part of the track you are riding on, as long as they left the gps on. Though how well does a gps work in a stadium anyway????
RealityZ
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1/18/2011 1:06pm


Gotcha, thank you.
sbowlden111
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1/18/2011 1:09pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 1:11pm
jeez.
sbowlden111
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1/18/2011 1:10pm Edited Date/Time 1/18/2011 1:11pm
sorry.
sbowlden111
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1/18/2011 1:11pm
Wow, I really do suck at this
RealityZ
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1/18/2011 2:12pm
sorry.


The horse aint dead yet so....

STFU........
Craze
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1/18/2011 2:15pm
For the bizillionth time.......4 strokes are traction control
MXTR
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1/18/2011 2:25pm
Finally...... that was actually a non-biased piece of journalism. Great job Matthes!

It pointed out all sides of the issue. This should put to rest most of the speculation.

Now.......the AMA needs to outlaw all data collecting and also needs to be more informed of all forms of electronic traction control.
`ol Ger
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1/18/2011 2:51pm
Traction control FOUND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RaceFace
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1/18/2011 3:45pm
Jmracer wrote:
MXTR wrote:
Finally...... that was actually a non-biased piece of journalism. Great job Matthes! It pointed out all sides of the issue. This should put to rest most...
Finally...... that was actually a non-biased piece of journalism. Great job Matthes!

It pointed out all sides of the issue. This should put to rest most of the speculation.

Now.......the AMA needs to outlaw all data collecting and also needs to be more informed of all forms of electronic traction control.
Matthes article was good. MXA's point, since people apparently don't bother reading, is that teams have probably been using it in different forms for years. The whole system can be confined to the ignition box and run off RPM's (no need for sensors anywhere on any wheel). The point of this was not to accuse Stewart's team of cheating but rather to point out that many others probably have been cheating as well. An example is how some teams get around the sound test with an iignition switch that retards it just for the test. The whole point is almost every factory team is bending the rules all over the place and the AMA rules are pointless in trying to regulate anything. The rules are so lame that they might as well just be ignored.

For the record this is not a dead horse, it is more like the horse is just being born. JGR doesn't sound like they are up to speed on what others are doing and I doubt they are going to just accept it. This just came up Saturday night, major magazines are just now referencing it on their websites and it's already a dead horse?

I guess in Webworld it is, since important questions like which radiator graphics are best remain unanswered.


MXTR
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1/18/2011 4:29pm
RaceFace wrote:
Matthes article was good. MXA's point, since people apparently don't bother reading, is that teams have probably been using it in different forms for years. The...
Matthes article was good. MXA's point, since people apparently don't bother reading, is that teams have probably been using it in different forms for years. The whole system can be confined to the ignition box and run off RPM's (no need for sensors anywhere on any wheel). The point of this was not to accuse Stewart's team of cheating but rather to point out that many others probably have been cheating as well. An example is how some teams get around the sound test with an iignition switch that retards it just for the test. The whole point is almost every factory team is bending the rules all over the place and the AMA rules are pointless in trying to regulate anything. The rules are so lame that they might as well just be ignored.

For the record this is not a dead horse, it is more like the horse is just being born. JGR doesn't sound like they are up to speed on what others are doing and I doubt they are going to just accept it. This just came up Saturday night, major magazines are just now referencing it on their websites and it's already a dead horse?

I guess in Webworld it is, since important questions like which radiator graphics are best remain unanswered.


Hey, I agree with the MXA point of view. You have to give it up to Jody, when the AMA screws up, he's going to jump all over them.

I also don't think this is a dead horse. Things need to change and be more specific with the rules regarding data collecting during race day, all electronic traction controlled devices, electronic start switches, electronic clutch switches, ....ect.

Like I said before, and was also pointed out by the Matthes article, all of this is creating a "slippery slope" for the future of this sport.

Will racing be better or worse if all of the big teams have these technologies?

Will the smaller teams be able to come close to all of the resources needed to get it dialed in properly?

It pretty much killed road racing in the US, do we want that to happen in SX/MX?

BTW, I bet he JGR guys are well aware of what other teams are doing, that is why I believe they took a stand before this got out of control. .
GuyB
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1/18/2011 4:34pm
MXTR, I'm curious how they took a stand? Via the talk over the team's radios? Or some other means? Smile
MXTR
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1/18/2011 4:48pm
GuyB wrote:
MXTR, I'm curious how they took a stand? Via the talk over the team's radios? Or some other means? Smile
According to the Matthes article, it sounds like they went to the AMA to express their concerns.

"I spoke to JGR MX manager Jeremy Albrecht on Sunday and he expressed that they never said James is cheating, but they are concerned (and again, have spoken to the AMA) about where this could go in the future. Albrecht believes it’s a slippery slope and they themselves are a “big-money” team and can do whatever the others are doing, but they don’t feel it’s right from a competitive standpoint."
GuyB
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1/18/2011 4:54pm
Gotcha...I hadn't seen that one. Thanks. Smile
TeamGreen
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1/18/2011 5:04pm
Gibby,

Can we get an emoticon with a HUGE pistol...

That he's using to shoot himself in the fckn head with?

Thx

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