I have been waiting to say this

outlaw452
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outlaw452
Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 9:26am
http://outlaw452.com/blog.html

jm
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72kiteboarder
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72kiteboarder 12/26/2010 2:59pm
12/26/2010 2:59pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 3:00pm
Well Said.
824 Dad
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824 Dad 12/26/2010 3:06pm
12/26/2010 3:06pm
I couldn't agree more...
gsxrcr28
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gsxrcr28 12/26/2010 3:12pm
12/26/2010 3:12pm
I agree James. Some may think they are better off not wearing a neck brace and I am not a doctor, but I would not ride without mine. JMO
500guy
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500guy 12/26/2010 3:16pm
12/26/2010 3:16pm
I disagree with what you say about Bailey, He spoke out and he seems to get less air time then before.

I think that is something that is reality in the sport, make some waves and you will be washed overboard.

The Shop

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TeamGreen
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TeamGreen 12/26/2010 3:26pm
12/26/2010 3:26pm
I am lookin' into switichin' to the A-Star as it looks/seems less intrusive.

Still, I'm intrigued by Chad's change of heart...or...is it change of the Dollar-Dynamic? (Is he no-longer "paid" to wear it?)
psychcle
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psychcle 12/26/2010 5:50pm
12/26/2010 5:50pm
Our sport needs to be run by NASCAR... not Circus Entertainers in my opinion... but we hope what you wrote will make a difference... thank you... ;-)
Bronson905
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Bronson905 12/26/2010 5:57pm
12/26/2010 5:57pm
Great post James, inspirational to say the least. I know I won't ride without a brace.
redrider400
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redrider400 12/26/2010 6:38pm
12/26/2010 6:38pm
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad thing.
Sonny
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Sonny 12/26/2010 6:43pm
12/26/2010 6:43pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 6:44pm
James, I too watched that race with a horrible feeling in my stomach. I often wondered about your progress. Its definitely good to see that you are fighting the good fight. BTW, I agree with you 100%.






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flarider 12/26/2010 7:34pm
12/26/2010 7:34pm
redrider400 wrote:
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad...
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad thing.
Not comparable
HANS and Leatt are not similar, do not work in any manner similarly (other that being around neck) and protect against completely different types of cervical injuries.

Not arguing Marshall's comments, only stating that unless you understand what one does and others do, don't compare them

HANS has thousands of hours of inside industry and independent testing, creating a standard.

The same CANNOT be said for the Leatt or any similar device
outlaw452
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outlaw452 12/26/2010 7:42pm
12/26/2010 7:42pm
Thank you all for your support. I would rather my injury be the last and final.

teggers
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teggers 12/26/2010 7:43pm
12/26/2010 7:43pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 7:46pm
Thanks for this post.



When I started learning about the LEATT, I was not convinced until I realized how useless my Foam brace was.... It is a foam piece of rubber that will break down at the forces exerted in a major crash (even a minor one). I always thought that I was being responsible while I was racing by using the most amount of protection I could wear. After actually learning about these forces, by video observation and personal (unfortunate) testing, I was convinced that the Leatt was the next step in my personal protection - and the responsible action to not hinder those around me for the back end actions that I could cause.



I watched my Brother go over the handlebars in slow motion and land on his head. He was wearing a foam brace. His head hit and tucked completely under his body. He broke his neck. I am absolutely convinced that his head would not have tucked under in this crash. Can I predict what the other outcome would have been? Of course not, but I believe he would not have broken his neck. (Luckily, it was not broken where the nerves were damaged. He fused 2 vertebrae and has full functions of his body.) He was a lucky one.



Thanks James Marshall for bringing this subject back to the fore front of racing protection. It never hurts to get up on the soapbox from time to time. My bet is that you have convinced some parents and some riders that the Leatt protection is real and maybe, because of this post, have saved a life and many life styles.



I saw your crash live on TV and saw the same type of crash. I was horrified. I knew instantly it was the same crash I had seen before. I hope you continue to improve and I hope you shout this message from the rooftops - every chance you get!



Having said that, by mandating this use, you might be opening up the sanctioning body to legal issues. There is no way that I can PROVE what I believe to be true. I hope someone has read this post and will believe what you and I believe.



Thank you for speaking up again on this topic.



Tim Eggers
outlaw452
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outlaw452 12/26/2010 7:48pm
12/26/2010 7:48pm
The rooftops is where I'm shouting from. I jusat want the universe to hear me, that's all
CamP
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CamP 12/26/2010 8:00pm
12/26/2010 8:00pm
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still makes sense to me.
sbarrington314 12/26/2010 8:17pm
12/26/2010 8:17pm
justin weeks didnt wear a neck brace
JLong
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JLong 12/26/2010 8:22pm
12/26/2010 8:22pm
redrider400 wrote:
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad...
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad thing.
flarider wrote:
Not comparable HANS and Leatt are not similar, do not work in any manner similarly (other that being around neck) and protect against completely different types...
Not comparable
HANS and Leatt are not similar, do not work in any manner similarly (other that being around neck) and protect against completely different types of cervical injuries.

Not arguing Marshall's comments, only stating that unless you understand what one does and others do, don't compare them

HANS has thousands of hours of inside industry and independent testing, creating a standard.

The same CANNOT be said for the Leatt or any similar device
What is similar is the lack of use of both devices. While HANS is mandatory in most pro level motorsports, the reality is most local level racers don't use the HANS- this is info from the inventors of the HANS.

I began using a Leatt immediately following Bailey's message. I know they aren't perfect, not fully tested, but they will be refined over time. I'm not sure why everyone continues to take the risk of neck injury when this is available. Broken collar bones from the Leatt? Collar bones heal, spinal cords don't.

I applaud Marshall and Bailey for their efforts, and the pro riders who wear them. It's a great example to the up and coming riders. Maybe more restrictive, but we watched Dungey stomp a mudhole in everyone's ass last year while wearing one.
sbarrington314 12/26/2010 8:24pm
12/26/2010 8:24pm
CamP wrote:
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still...
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still makes sense to me.
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury. still might not walk away.
too many what ifs to ever make it mandatory.
redrider400
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redrider400 12/26/2010 8:33pm
12/26/2010 8:33pm
redrider400 wrote:
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad...
I completely agree with you also. Nascar enforces that Hans device or whatever its called. I think that enforcing safety measures can never be a bad thing.
flarider wrote:
Not comparable HANS and Leatt are not similar, do not work in any manner similarly (other that being around neck) and protect against completely different types...
Not comparable
HANS and Leatt are not similar, do not work in any manner similarly (other that being around neck) and protect against completely different types of cervical injuries.

Not arguing Marshall's comments, only stating that unless you understand what one does and others do, don't compare them

HANS has thousands of hours of inside industry and independent testing, creating a standard.

The same CANNOT be said for the Leatt or any similar device
I was making an example, not comparing. Just stating that any extra protection does not hurt.

Pit Row

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CamP
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CamP 12/26/2010 8:35pm
12/26/2010 8:35pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 8:39pm
CamP wrote:
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still...
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still makes sense to me.
sbarrington314 wrote:
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury...
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury. still might not walk away.
too many what ifs to ever make it mandatory.
The brace only transfers a portion of the load through the brace and into your shoulders/ chest. Most of the load is still carried by the cervical spine. So while the load on the cervical spine is slightly reduced, the load on the thoracic spine may be slightly increased. When I broke T7 and T8 in my back skiing, my ortho told me the thoracic vertebrae were the strongest in the spine. Much stronger that the cervical vertebrae. So I would surmise that if you landed so hard on your head with the Leatt that it fractured vertebrae in your thoracic spine, you most likely would have broken vertebrae in your cervical spine without the brace. I would much rather break T7 than C1.
redrider400
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redrider400 12/26/2010 8:38pm
12/26/2010 8:38pm
Of course the leatt and BNS are not perfect, but IMO they are better than not wearing anything. Its weird to me that there is such a clash between people on the pro's and con's of neck protection, yet there is a similar argument with knee braces, but most people, well, pretty much all the pro's use them. I don't understand it really.
redrider400
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redrider400 12/26/2010 8:41pm
12/26/2010 8:41pm
CamP wrote:
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still...
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still makes sense to me.
sbarrington314 wrote:
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury...
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury. still might not walk away.
too many what ifs to ever make it mandatory.
CamP wrote:
The brace only transfers a portion of the load through the brace and into your shoulders/ chest. Most of the load is still carried by the...
The brace only transfers a portion of the load through the brace and into your shoulders/ chest. Most of the load is still carried by the cervical spine. So while the load on the cervical spine is slightly reduced, the load on the thoracic spine may be slightly increased. When I broke T7 and T8 in my back skiing, my ortho told me the thoracic vertebrae were the strongest in the spine. Much stronger that the cervical vertebrae. So I would surmise that if you landed so hard on your head with the Leatt that it fractured vertebrae in your thoracic spine, you most likely would have broken vertebrae in your cervical spine without the brace. I would much rather break T7 than C1.
You are correct, the cervical spine is not nearly as supported as the thoracic spine. I just accept the leatt and the like on the sole concept of dissipating the energy of the impact through the device, even if it is just alittle.
sbarrington314 12/26/2010 8:51pm
12/26/2010 8:51pm
CamP wrote:
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still...
The alternative load path concept of the Leatt made sense to me four years ago when Leatt brought their neck brace to market, and it still makes sense to me.
sbarrington314 wrote:
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury...
so it makes sense to put a load on a lower part of the spine? although its not your neck, its still a very bad injury. still might not walk away.
too many what ifs to ever make it mandatory.
CamP wrote:
The brace only transfers a portion of the load through the brace and into your shoulders/ chest. Most of the load is still carried by the...
The brace only transfers a portion of the load through the brace and into your shoulders/ chest. Most of the load is still carried by the cervical spine. So while the load on the cervical spine is slightly reduced, the load on the thoracic spine may be slightly increased. When I broke T7 and T8 in my back skiing, my ortho told me the thoracic vertebrae were the strongest in the spine. Much stronger that the cervical vertebrae. So I would surmise that if you landed so hard on your head with the Leatt that it fractured vertebrae in your thoracic spine, you most likely would have broken vertebrae in your cervical spine without the brace. I would much rather break T7 than C1.
im not saying the brace doesnt help the cervical part. but more saying that the load path could/should be different. something wider, using more of the back seems like a better answer. hopefully someday the perfect design will come about. but this isnt it.
CamP
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CamP 12/26/2010 9:03pm
12/26/2010 9:03pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 9:12pm
sbarrington314 wrote:
im not saying the brace doesnt help the cervical part. but more saying that the load path could/should be different. something wider, using more of the...
im not saying the brace doesnt help the cervical part. but more saying that the load path could/should be different. something wider, using more of the back seems like a better answer. hopefully someday the perfect design will come about. but this isnt it.
I think there will always be a compromise. The trade off may always be the possibility of a less severe T injury rather than a more severe C injury.



BTW, I don't think I ever heard about the circumstances surrounding your crash. If you don't mind me asking, did you land on your head off a jump?
Ashleymx
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Ashleymx 12/26/2010 9:05pm
12/26/2010 9:05pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 9:08pm
I'd never ride without one. I couldn't bare the regret if I ended up in a chair the day I didn't wear it. I watched your crash over and over James to try and work out what happened, one of my best friends is a C5 quad too, (it happened before braces were invented) Landing on top of the head with a tuck into the chest type of motion (like Danny Magoo Chandlers crash) seems the most common and thats exactly how a Leatt can save you by transferring that force into the chest and shoulders before it all goes down the spine shattering the upper vertebra. Seems like simple mechanics to me. I have no doubt it would have helped my friend. He may not have ridden again but would possibly be walking or at least have use of his hands/arms. I certainly cant see any negatives. The collarbone theory is stupid, USAs top 3 riders from the MXofN literally live in these braces with all the laps they do on a yearly/weekly basis. I think they would have seen the negatives by now if there were any.



The only thing that bugs me a little now is where are the updates for these braces? (besides the colours and cheaper versions) Products naturally evolve and improve but neck braces haven't. Did they really get them spot on first go? I still think they are far better than nothing though.



Simple question: How many Quads are out there right now that were wearing a Leatt or Alpinestar brace when they crashed??

sbarrington314 12/26/2010 9:10pm
12/26/2010 9:10pm
sbarrington314 wrote:
im not saying the brace doesnt help the cervical part. but more saying that the load path could/should be different. something wider, using more of the...
im not saying the brace doesnt help the cervical part. but more saying that the load path could/should be different. something wider, using more of the back seems like a better answer. hopefully someday the perfect design will come about. but this isnt it.
CamP wrote:
I think there will always be a compromise. The trade off may always be the possibility of a less severe T injury rather than a more...
I think there will always be a compromise. The trade off may always be the possibility of a less severe T injury rather than a more severe C injury.



BTW, I don't think I ever heard about the circumstances surrounding your crash. If you don't mind me asking, did you land on your head off a jump?
high speed sweeper, high sided. and yes landed on my head.
and in my position right now, its tough seeing that the brace could have caused the break in my back, but also wondering if it saved my neck. so when reading these posts, it definitely hits home and i think there should be way more testing or research or something before people say this is the answer. but your right, it is a compromise. but i believe it could be better than that.
CamP
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CamP 12/26/2010 9:32pm
12/26/2010 9:32pm Edited Date/Time 12/26/2010 9:39pm
sbarrington314 wrote:
high speed sweeper, high sided. and yes landed on my head. and in my position right now, its tough seeing that the brace could have caused...
high speed sweeper, high sided. and yes landed on my head.
and in my position right now, its tough seeing that the brace could have caused the break in my back, but also wondering if it saved my neck. so when reading these posts, it definitely hits home and i think there should be way more testing or research or something before people say this is the answer. but your right, it is a compromise. but i believe it could be better than that.
Thanks for explanation.



The braces will likely evolve and improve with time but I think Leatt picked the low hanging fruit. There has been some conjecture that the Leatt stabilizer spar has caused some T region fractures such as yours, but I don't believe that to be the case because you can snap the spar off the brace with your bare hands. That is far less force than is required to break a big T region vertebrae. I believe that any brace that effectively transfers force around the neck will ultimately transfer more force down the spine. I also believe the challenge will be to design a brace that distributes that load in a less localized manner and I think that chest protector integration may be the way to achieve that.
race
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race 12/27/2010 12:07am
12/27/2010 12:07am
Maybe a permanent sticky thread that people can add information links, research links, product links, etc ?

I'm also wondering why they don't just make the back spars twice as wide to better distribute whatever load gets put on it?

.
jeffro503
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jeffro503 12/27/2010 12:12am
12/27/2010 12:12am Edited Date/Time 12/27/2010 12:14am
Has any rider ( professional / non professional ) that we know of been paralyzed during a wreck ( broken neck )....that was wearing a Leatte or other neck/spine equipment. I only ask....because I don't know.



And BTW...James....I haven't had a chance to read your entire blog yet. But I will for sure.....I always enjoy reading your insights!
fullfloater 12/27/2010 12:50am
12/27/2010 12:50am
Have not watched that crash and never want to see it. Thanks for all of your writing JM. Have a great 2011.
lastonetoknow 12/27/2010 6:50am
12/27/2010 6:50am
jeffro503 wrote:
Has any rider ( professional / non professional ) that we know of been paralyzed during a wreck ( broken neck )....that was wearing a Leatte...
Has any rider ( professional / non professional ) that we know of been paralyzed during a wreck ( broken neck )....that was wearing a Leatte or other neck/spine equipment. I only ask....because I don't know.



And BTW...James....I haven't had a chance to read your entire blog yet. But I will for sure.....I always enjoy reading your insights!
Harley Quinlan(,severely injured spinal chord, chest down) Luke Bond (c5 c6 t9) were both downed the same day. Both wore neck braces. Google them, happened about a month ago, both were pro.

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