Lead Law - we need your help

SteveS
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11/15/2010 6:27pm
Why would the Japanese brands want the lead law?
Mstock wrote:
Um....they don't sell bikes for the under 13 crowd. Just a wild ass guess.
Guess you don't get out to the track much to see all the kids on Japanese bikes riding in the PW50, 65, and 85 classes.
Mstock
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Middleton, WI US
11/15/2010 6:41pm
Why would the Japanese brands want the lead law?
Mstock wrote:
Um....they don't sell bikes for the under 13 crowd. Just a wild ass guess.
SteveS wrote:
Guess you don't get out to the track much to see all the kids on Japanese bikes riding in the PW50, 65, and 85 classes.
Your correct. I have not seen a honda, suzuki, kawasaki or yamaha race ready 50 on the track. Ever.
Never seen a honda or yamaha 65cc race bike in my life.

What else you got?
TJ 755
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11/15/2010 6:47pm
you guys could fuck up a wet dream. Please take your argument elsewhere. This thread is about the impending reinstatement of the dumb lead ban.
mxrose3
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11/15/2010 6:54pm
George Bush signed the CPSIA into law in 2008.
I'll blame him yet again.

The Shop

4mxonly
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11/15/2010 7:26pm
TJ 755 wrote:
you guys could fuck up a wet dream. Please take your argument elsewhere. This thread is about the impending reinstatement of the dumb lead ban.
Agreed. Unfortunately, the old adage "a group of people are only as smart as the loudest person in the room" is beginning to take hold of this thread... and it's pretty clear who the motor-mouth is; I'll give you a hint, his name starts with an 'M' and ends with a "stock".

Mstock, if you want to push your ideological fantasies on people, then start another thread (with a premise on age limits for racing) --don't sabotage this one.
KAWboy14
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11/15/2010 7:34pm
GuyB wrote:
I know how to bring more attention to this issue...

Is Lead Law J-Law's long-lost brother?
if this is going to be a jlaw thread....i'm in!
KAWboy14
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11/15/2010 7:35pm
so your saying jlaw eats lead and paint chips?
mx_momma
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Corinth, MS US
11/16/2010 4:44am
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s

and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it - because riding gear that has a zipper - under the law
boots that contain metal hinges - under the law
brake pads - under the law
battery related parts - under the law
cables - under the law
FMF - under the law

I could go on and on....this is not about what age YOU think kids should start racing. This law WILL affect every rider and family that loves the sport.

If you want more government oversight in the sport, then keep on with your agenda....
flarider
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11/16/2010 5:10am
mx_momma wrote:
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it -...
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s

and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it - because riding gear that has a zipper - under the law
boots that contain metal hinges - under the law
brake pads - under the law
battery related parts - under the law
cables - under the law
FMF - under the law

I could go on and on....this is not about what age YOU think kids should start racing. This law WILL affect every rider and family that loves the sport.

If you want more government oversight in the sport, then keep on with your agenda....
This is correct and where people lose focus.

I do agree with Alphado that once the stay was put in place "it appears" that people and industry stopped caring, as if it was just shelved "for later review"

That was a mistake if that is what went on.

mx_momma is right in that this affects a lot more than motorcycles, but just about every single thing made or sold to or for children 12 and under, motorcycle or not.

mxrose3
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11/16/2010 5:21am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2010 5:21am
mx_momma wrote:
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it -...
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s

and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it - because riding gear that has a zipper - under the law
boots that contain metal hinges - under the law
brake pads - under the law
battery related parts - under the law
cables - under the law
FMF - under the law

I could go on and on....this is not about what age YOU think kids should start racing. This law WILL affect every rider and family that loves the sport.

If you want more government oversight in the sport, then keep on with your agenda....
*OR*
The manufacturers can just stop making anything "intended" for the under 13 crowd and keep everything else the same.
Towelie
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Denver, CO US
11/16/2010 5:33am Edited Date/Time 11/16/2010 5:34am
mx_momma wrote:
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it -...
some of those manufacturers DO make 65s and 85s

and the aftermarket companies that sell to all size bikes is also where you'll feel it - because riding gear that has a zipper - under the law
boots that contain metal hinges - under the law
brake pads - under the law
battery related parts - under the law
cables - under the law
FMF - under the law

I could go on and on....this is not about what age YOU think kids should start racing. This law WILL affect every rider and family that loves the sport.

If you want more government oversight in the sport, then keep on with your agenda....
err no, it directly targets kids under 13, all the manufacturers have to do is put stickers that say "for use of 13 yr old" like they do on 80's, problem solved. Furthermore if you are going to passionately be against something, then you owe it actually know the facts, not just have hysterical paranoia
SteveS
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11/16/2010 5:53am
Mstock wrote:
Um....they don't sell bikes for the under 13 crowd. Just a wild ass guess.
SteveS wrote:
Guess you don't get out to the track much to see all the kids on Japanese bikes riding in the PW50, 65, and 85 classes.
Mstock wrote:
Your correct. I have not seen a honda, suzuki, kawasaki or yamaha race ready 50 on the track. Ever. Never seen a honda or yamaha 65cc...
Your correct. I have not seen a honda, suzuki, kawasaki or yamaha race ready 50 on the track. Ever.
Never seen a honda or yamaha 65cc race bike in my life.

What else you got?
Yamaha makes the PW50. A class run at Loretta's uses them.
For 65's you have the KX65 and RM65. And of course the 65SX
For 85's you have the YZ85, RM85, KX85, 85SX. Honda has the 150R which under-12's can run.

All of those bike models are run in classes for kids under age 12.

If you want bike manufacturers to stop making bikes for the under 13 ages, you are playing right into the hands of the people who want to totally stamp out racing. It would take less than a generation to do so.

flarider
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11/16/2010 5:56am
Towelie wrote:
err no, it directly targets kids under 13, all the manufacturers have to do is put stickers that say "for use of 13 yr old" like...
err no, it directly targets kids under 13, all the manufacturers have to do is put stickers that say "for use of 13 yr old" like they do on 80's, problem solved. Furthermore if you are going to passionately be against something, then you owe it actually know the facts, not just have hysterical paranoia
Then you open up a 2nd issue, don't you?

That issue being a promoter KNOWINGLY ALLOWING children 12 and under racing machines not intended for their age range. Machines registered lawfully with the federal government as being intended ONLY for children 13 and over.

Don't you think that opens the promoter and/or sanction (AMA, NMA or CMC, for example) up to liability?

mxrose3
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11/16/2010 6:51am
Towelie wrote:
err no, it directly targets kids under 13, all the manufacturers have to do is put stickers that say "for use of 13 yr old" like...
err no, it directly targets kids under 13, all the manufacturers have to do is put stickers that say "for use of 13 yr old" like they do on 80's, problem solved. Furthermore if you are going to passionately be against something, then you owe it actually know the facts, not just have hysterical paranoia
flarider wrote:
Then you open up a 2nd issue, don't you? That issue being a promoter KNOWINGLY ALLOWING children 12 and under racing machines not intended for their...
Then you open up a 2nd issue, don't you?

That issue being a promoter KNOWINGLY ALLOWING children 12 and under racing machines not intended for their age range. Machines registered lawfully with the federal government as being intended ONLY for children 13 and over.

Don't you think that opens the promoter and/or sanction (AMA, NMA or CMC, for example) up to liability?

Then, as a racing promotor, you don't allow anyone under 13 to race.
New Jersey had this law for years, except it was 'under 14' I think. Racing did just fine then, whats the big deal now?
flarider
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11/16/2010 7:02am
mxrose3 wrote:
Then, as a racing promotor, you don't allow anyone under 13 to race. New Jersey had this law for years, except it was 'under 14' I...
Then, as a racing promotor, you don't allow anyone under 13 to race.
New Jersey had this law for years, except it was 'under 14' I think. Racing did just fine then, whats the big deal now?
So, you don't think a nationwide ban on motocross racing for anyone under 13, would be detrimental to the sport and industry?

and let me ask this, if we "ban" any rider under 13, would it then be considered illegal to make rider gear, like boots, pants, helmets and jerseys, for riders under 13, since they cannot legally ride?

How do you think that would affect the off-road/dirtbike/motocross industry?

If PC and FMF are no longer making pipes for 85's and under, how much of a hit do you think that would be to their bottomline and how do you think they will make up for those losses?

mx_momma
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11/16/2010 7:26am
I'm not trying to be paranoid or crazed...both of my sons ride and they love it. We are not stupid enough to put them on bikes built for 13 year olds, but how many hundreds will? Even the CPSIA said that the law will have unintended consequences of increased injuries from youth riding machines that are too big for them.

Some of you are obviously not fans of kids, we get it, lol but I find it hard to believe that there aren't more people in the sport today then when "sears made a $250" bike...and if you figure inflation, that's about the same as a PW today

and ALL levels of bikes have gotten faster and more improved, not just mini's.

The law would also make it illegal for ME to sell our bikes, so if the law goes in place, I would be sitting on 20,000 worth of bikes

supercross races and national races are filling huge stadiums with spectators, including kids that dream of riding there one day, too

everyone has their own opinion, mine happens to be that this law WILL be detrimental to the entire motorsports community

Here's a link to Cobra's blog about the issue:
http://blog.cobramotorcycle.com/

It is true that if you take away the youth from this sport, you will disenfranchise an entire generation, and see the eventual demise of this sport. If you want to go back to the "good ole days" then bust out your indian have at it...
Ryno784
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Cambridge City, IN US
11/16/2010 7:28am
Mstock wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that this sport was double it's size when there was not a 50 or 65 class. Why? Because riding a dirt bike...
Everyone seems to forget that this sport was double it's size when there was not a 50 or 65 class. Why? Because riding a dirt bike at age 6 was only about fun. A pull start sears minibike was the shit and parents bought thousands. Everyone could afford them at $250. After they caught the riding bug they got a 80 or 100 and then a 125, 250 and then a 500.
Now we have $3,000+ peewees and people wonder why the industry is taking a shit. For every kid that has the parents who can afford 5k for them to START racing peewee there are 10,000 kids who parents say fuck that. Those kids are lost for life in this sport.
In my opinion competative, organized racing should be reserved for adults who have disposable income to participate.

I will vote FOR the lead law to protect our sport. Sorry. And thanks for the reminder.
Pretty off the wall comment....a PW 50 is $1299, and you can keep it four or five years and sell it for $800...not sure where you're getting 5k from....
B DUB 333
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New Richland, MN US
11/16/2010 8:02am
I can get a new pw for $799-$999 all day long and the bike has a limiter for the throttle.
Its plenty safe. This law is STUPID and needs our attention. I had a cobra 50 for my son when he was 6 and sold it right away, I wont put my kid on one. However, there are kids who do fine with them . I want more choices not less. I believe there are plenty of laws already, we don't need any more. Keep in mind, here in MN if you let your kid use a machine that was intended for a age above his YOU can get a ticket and have charges brought against you by the state for letting your child ride the machine. So putting a sticker on them is NOT the answer. We have to speak up people, this is just the begining and we need to voice our opinions that this law is unfair. If YOU think that minis are too dangerous then dont buy one. Taking away others rights because YOU dont like something is called communism. I personally dont really care what my neighbor is doing, is none of my business......

Erik727
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Spring, TX US
11/16/2010 8:31am
For all you assholes that seem to be for the ban of minis............When this went into effect before.....there were alot of parts that YOU could not buy..that were outlawed ,,for your big bikes...Why ?? because these same parts or like pieces were also used on minis....There were alot of people bitching about not being able to buy cables,throttles exhaust hangers,etc from honda ,yam,ktm,,etc...You get the point,eh ?

Honda may not make a race ready 50 ,like ktm or cobra,,but they do sell 100's of thousands of Crf 50' 70's 100's 150's that are for family fun and learning to ride...When they lose all this $$,,where do you think they'll make it up ?
I agree ,the Mfg's should have been fighting this hard the last couple years and all they've been doing is stepping on their dicks with golf shoes accomplishing nothing..but we need to stand up as a community..the MX community and make our voice heard..

Sincerly,
Erik,,,,, a retired racer that is just a parent of 2 mini racers.
mxrose3
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11/16/2010 12:42pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2010 1:03pm
mxrose3 wrote:
Then, as a racing promotor, you don't allow anyone under 13 to race. New Jersey had this law for years, except it was 'under 14' I...
Then, as a racing promotor, you don't allow anyone under 13 to race.
New Jersey had this law for years, except it was 'under 14' I think. Racing did just fine then, whats the big deal now?
flarider wrote:
So, you don't think a nationwide ban on motocross racing for anyone under 13, would be detrimental to the sport and industry? and let me ask...
So, you don't think a nationwide ban on motocross racing for anyone under 13, would be detrimental to the sport and industry?

and let me ask this, if we "ban" any rider under 13, would it then be considered illegal to make rider gear, like boots, pants, helmets and jerseys, for riders under 13, since they cannot legally ride?

How do you think that would affect the off-road/dirtbike/motocross industry?

If PC and FMF are no longer making pipes for 85's and under, how much of a hit do you think that would be to their bottomline and how do you think they will make up for those losses?

65's and 50's were non-existant in the 70's. Seems to me when they started hitting the market in the 80's, the prices of everything should have gone down... did it? I don't remember the prices of anything going down when mini's started booming...
So that will just be an excuse to raise the prices when they lose that market? Sounds as fishy as gas prices to me.
Sorry, I need more hard proof that this will be detrimental to our sport in the long term...
The parts availability issues would only be short term problems.
By the way, I'm not in my 50's(yet) but have put two kids through racing on 50's, 60's and 80's.
DBerg
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11/16/2010 1:09pm
Whether or not you like 50's and 65's, or even if you care about those bikes, you cannot argue the fact that selling them could be made illegal for stupid reasons that don't make a lot of sense. Because YOU don't like them, a stupid law is justified? There are a lot of people who don't like dirtbikes in general. So because they don't like them, would it be ok for them to make up a rediculous law so that you couldn't buy them anymore? You guys complain about restrictions on OHVs because of air pollution and other dumb excuses, and you guys are more than vocal about it. This law is basically the same thing but instead of limiting where you can ride, it's limiting what you're allowed to buy. Some of you guys need to think a little. Ever heard the expression, give an inch and they'll take a mile? As much crap as the moto community catches from these nuts all the time, anyone in the moto community should fight for us to keep as many rights as we can, regardless if you think it'll effect you or not.
flarider
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11/16/2010 1:15pm
mxrose3 wrote:
65's and 50's were non-existant in the 70's. Seems to me when they started hitting the market in the 80's, the prices of everything should have...
65's and 50's were non-existant in the 70's. Seems to me when they started hitting the market in the 80's, the prices of everything should have gone down... did it? I don't remember the prices of anything going down when mini's started booming...
So that will just be an excuse to raise the prices when they lose that market? Sounds as fishy as gas prices to me.
Sorry, I need more hard proof that this will be detrimental to our sport in the long term...
The parts availability issues would only be short term problems.
By the way, I'm not in my 50's(yet) but have put two kids through racing on 50's, 60's and 80's.
HORSE SHIT

Ever see one of these?


mxrose3
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11/16/2010 1:18pm
DBerg wrote:
Whether or not you like 50's and 65's, or even if you care about those bikes, you cannot argue the fact that selling them could be...
Whether or not you like 50's and 65's, or even if you care about those bikes, you cannot argue the fact that selling them could be made illegal for stupid reasons that don't make a lot of sense. Because YOU don't like them, a stupid law is justified? There are a lot of people who don't like dirtbikes in general. So because they don't like them, would it be ok for them to make up a rediculous law so that you couldn't buy them anymore? You guys complain about restrictions on OHVs because of air pollution and other dumb excuses, and you guys are more than vocal about it. This law is basically the same thing but instead of limiting where you can ride, it's limiting what you're allowed to buy. Some of you guys need to think a little. Ever heard the expression, give an inch and they'll take a mile? As much crap as the moto community catches from these nuts all the time, anyone in the moto community should fight for us to keep as many rights as we can, regardless if you think it'll effect you or not.
this law wasn't targeting dirt bikes. It was targeting EVERYTHING that is meant to be sold and/or used by kids 12 and younger. How do you think the toy/clothing/or bicycle industry is handling this? They aren't taking it very well either. If you think this was mainly targeted at the off-road industry, you've got a bad case of paranoid schizophrenia.
Remember - George Bush (a Republican) signed this into law. It was meant to stop the badly made Chinese toys and stuff from being imported into the US, but it had other effects.
mxrose3
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11/16/2010 1:21pm Edited Date/Time 11/16/2010 1:25pm
flarider wrote:
HORSE SHIT Ever see one of these? [img]http://craigmac215.tripod.com/bikes/74mr50.jpg[/img]
HORSE SHIT

Ever see one of these?


Yes, thats a mid to late 70's Honda MR50. What aftermarket companies made products for those and how many of them were actually raced? maybe a pipe or $50 shocks.
flarider
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11/16/2010 1:25pm
Tons of shit and tons were sold
I'd see dozens at every race
mxrose3
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11/16/2010 1:29pm
flarider wrote:
Tons of shit and tons were sold
I'd see dozens at every race
I rarely saw them at tracks.
Why did Honda quit making it then if tons of them were sold and tons of shit was sold?
flarider
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11/16/2010 2:04pm
How the hell would I know?

Why did Suzuki stop making the PE175 when it sold out every year?
Why did Kawasaki do the same with their crazy successful KDX175?

Honda made the MR50
Yamaha made a YZ60 and still makes a PW50
Suzuki made a RM50
Kawasaki still makes a KX65

Then there's the Indian 50's the Italijet's and all the others....

I am going to assume that you're either laying bait, incredibly stupid or incredibly new to the sport.
mxrose3
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11/16/2010 2:26pm
flarider wrote:
How the hell would I know? Why did Suzuki stop making the PE175 when it sold out every year? Why did Kawasaki do the same with...
How the hell would I know?

Why did Suzuki stop making the PE175 when it sold out every year?
Why did Kawasaki do the same with their crazy successful KDX175?

Honda made the MR50
Yamaha made a YZ60 and still makes a PW50
Suzuki made a RM50
Kawasaki still makes a KX65

Then there's the Indian 50's the Italijet's and all the others....

I am going to assume that you're either laying bait, incredibly stupid or incredibly new to the sport.
I'm just asking questions Dave... well, maybe I was laying a little bait to spark some debate on this subject also.
I just don't see how losing this part of the market would be THAT detrimental to the sport... This sport has undergone so many changes in the past and still come out fine.
This argument will probably be a mute point anyway because, someone will still make a 50 or 65 that will meet the lead obligations, or they will get past this ruling somehow with enough people pushing for it. Sorry, but I'll be over here with Mstock and Alphado watching from the sidelines.
DBerg
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11/16/2010 5:36pm
mxrose3 wrote:
this law wasn't targeting dirt bikes. It was targeting EVERYTHING that is meant to be sold and/or used by kids 12 and younger. How do you...
this law wasn't targeting dirt bikes. It was targeting EVERYTHING that is meant to be sold and/or used by kids 12 and younger. How do you think the toy/clothing/or bicycle industry is handling this? They aren't taking it very well either. If you think this was mainly targeted at the off-road industry, you've got a bad case of paranoid schizophrenia.
Remember - George Bush (a Republican) signed this into law. It was meant to stop the badly made Chinese toys and stuff from being imported into the US, but it had other effects.
Naw I know that, but the offroad market is affected by it. Like you said, it's meant to stop badly made Chinese toys, but the govt decides, hey we'll just target everything blindly with no specifics, and everyone seems pretty complacent about it. I mentioned dirtbikes specifically only because I thought it'd be more relevent here.
Towelie
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11/16/2010 6:13pm
Erik727 wrote:
For all you assholes that seem to be for the ban of minis............When this went into effect before.....there were alot of parts that YOU could not...
For all you assholes that seem to be for the ban of minis............When this went into effect before.....there were alot of parts that YOU could not buy..that were outlawed ,,for your big bikes...Why ?? because these same parts or like pieces were also used on minis....There were alot of people bitching about not being able to buy cables,throttles exhaust hangers,etc from honda ,yam,ktm,,etc...You get the point,eh ?

Honda may not make a race ready 50 ,like ktm or cobra,,but they do sell 100's of thousands of Crf 50' 70's 100's 150's that are for family fun and learning to ride...When they lose all this $$,,where do you think they'll make it up ?
I agree ,the Mfg's should have been fighting this hard the last couple years and all they've been doing is stepping on their dicks with golf shoes accomplishing nothing..but we need to stand up as a community..the MX community and make our voice heard..

Sincerly,
Erik,,,,, a retired racer that is just a parent of 2 mini racers.
no bullshit, dont make things up to support your cause. There were and are many ways around the lead law and many dealers continued to sell shit anyway. It is the manufacturers that need to come into compliance and probably have. Its only a big deal to the paranoid, just about every boot, clothing, etc company instantly sent out letters saying their products were in compliance and said products remained on shelves, Name ONE part from a mini that is used on a big bike? And parts, even though often said, were NEVER pulled from shelves either. The only ones to stop were bike sellers cause they didnt know what to make of the law. This will probably simmer down to a non issue and you will simply see. And I have two kids on 60's & 80's, I was able to get parts just fine when the first ban started

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