AMA Petition Update

prillernut
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prillernut 9/1/2010 11:16pm
9/1/2010 11:16pm
yeah, thanks OldYZRider, well put observation Smile

With it looking like KTM is getting a very strong asset with Roger DeCoster, it may be interesting to see how things develop...
wired4speed 9/2/2010 3:25am
9/2/2010 3:25am
The nerve of some people blaming the OEM's.
Bucky Wheat
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Bucky Wheat 9/2/2010 4:15am
9/2/2010 4:15am
OldYZRider1 wrote:
Well you can look at the current situation in AMA roadracing and maybe infer things aren't great but IMO you really need to go back to...
Well you can look at the current situation in AMA roadracing and maybe infer things aren't great but IMO you really need to go back to the early 90's to get some more perspective on that situation.

At the the time Ducati was developing their 851/888/916cc 4 valve twin with the Ferracci team. They were building each year seeing better results. At the time the twins were allowed a displacement and weight advantage to try and achieve parity with the 4 cylinder bikes the Japanese OEM's were running. Well Ferracci goes and hires Troy Corser who had just won the Australian Superbike championship and he starts to kick ass. The Japanese manufacturers complained to the AMA that the twins had too much of an advantage. Ferracci was running two riders; Corser and Mat Mladin (yah that guy). Well, while Corser was able to podium with regularity and was leading the championship, Mladin really was only a top ten finisher at the time. Mind you at the time there was only about three Ducati's racing; Ferracci and Jimmy Adamo - a privateer effort. To me the twins versus four formula appeared to be about right for the times but the AMA decided to remove the weight advantage for the twins mid-season! Corser was still able to win the championship and went on to great success in WSBK but the damage was done and honestly Ducati never seemed to be as competitive in the US afterwards. The AMA went on to eliminate the displacement advantage for the twins also. I believe these actions thwarted H-D's to develop their VR1000 twin superbike which many hoped would lead to a US production sportbike (Buell wasn't part of H-D at that time). They really could have used the help but their program floundered and they cancelled it.

Mladin went on to win umpteen championships on Suzuki's and for me it got quite boring and I lost interest in following it. Now DMG comes in and wants to change things and the Japanese OEM's get pissed and threaten to leave, well boo hoo, I for one think its time for a change.

So whats all this blather got to do with mx? Well to me, the 2/4 stroke deal has an underlying matter of who controls USMX, the AMA or the Japanese OEM's. I think KTM's been slighted by the AMA just as Ducati was. When KTM developed the 144SX I understood they all but had the assurance that the AMA was going to allow them to compete in the amateur 250cc class but instead the AMA banned them. The did change the following year but that just seemed like typically AMA BS to me. As the only major manufacturer furthering development of the 2 stroke while continuing to improve their bikes for MX competition, I think the big four want to put a lid on KTM. They don't want any sort of parity between 2 and 4 strokes lest someone on a KTM 2 stroke start having good results and gaining brand recognition.

I believe a competitive big bore 2 stroke in the 450 class would be a realistic choice for a privateer effort but unless a rider's being sponsored by a dealer who sells them and the rules allow them then we probably won't be seeing them.

I have signed the petition though and am hopeful for a change.
I salute you Pelopidas Pictures, Images and Photos
CR250Rider
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CR250Rider 9/2/2010 5:46am
9/2/2010 5:46am
yup

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ccoady454
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ccoady454 9/2/2010 6:37am
9/2/2010 6:37am
"...four-strokes are only competitive because they were given an enormous displacement advantage back in 1998." MXA. 3/11/2008

Even it up. Change the HUGE advantage to just a medium advantage. It'll still be unfair, but opens the gate for more competition. Change the minimum weight for two strokes too.
yota
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yota 9/2/2010 1:42pm
9/2/2010 1:42pm
I keep hearing a voice crying out that its no different than the KTM 50 Challenge. I asked previously if Honda was going to supply the bikes and do the set up like KTM did. If this is so then ok, the precedent is set. If not is this only open to boys who's families are going to pony up for a honda 150 or already own one?

please clarify.
newmann
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newmann 9/2/2010 3:32pm
9/2/2010 3:32pm
yota wrote:
I keep hearing a voice crying out that its no different than the KTM 50 Challenge. I asked previously if Honda was going to supply the...
I keep hearing a voice crying out that its no different than the KTM 50 Challenge. I asked previously if Honda was going to supply the bikes and do the set up like KTM did. If this is so then ok, the precedent is set. If not is this only open to boys who's families are going to pony up for a honda 150 or already own one?

please clarify.
Unlike the KTM 50 Challenge, it doesn't appear Honda is providing anything but contingency bucks and maybe track support. This is from Racer X.


"These special races will feature significant support from American Honda as well as the Honda Riders Club of America (HRCA). The back-to-back competitions will boast some of the most talented amateur motocross riders in the country, allowing the future stars of American motocross a unique opportunity to ride and compete on the same tracks as the world's fastest riders in front of thousands of motocross fans, plus a global television and internet audience.

The rules governing the Honda CRF150 Cup stipulate that all competitors must adhere to AMA-sanctioned Supermini (12-16) provisions, and contains a special stipulation that allows girls ages 12-16 the ability to participate. All riders must be aboard 2007 or newer Honda CRF150R or CRF150RB models.

In support of this exciting competition, American Honda has posted a significant contingency payout for each event, with over $11,000 in Honda Red Rider Rewards contingency up for grabs.

Visit powersports.honda.com/racing/contingency.aspx for Honda Red Rider Rewards program details and payout information. Entries will be strictly limited to the first 30 riders who register. The race schedule includes a practice session and one 15-minute moto."
MotoGuido
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MotoGuido 10/5/2010 12:30am
10/5/2010 12:30am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 11:34am
DC wrote:
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross...
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross and SX. We run them even at our amateur races, but there's never the fear there of Marvin Musquin showing up on a factory 250 KTM two-stroke and smoking the field,

We did the tests, TWMX did the tests, MXA did the tests: the two-stroke 250 still outruns a 250F and by opening the door to help privateers, you just give factory riders more of an advantage in that they could choose which bike to ride when. I know you mean well, but i personally don't see how it could work and not have an effect that hurts the racing more than it helps it.

But it was the guy who wished I had cancer that really ended this fight for me. That one hit a little close to home. Sorry.

DC
MX Sports
I find this whole issue extremely ironic. When the 2-stroke was first introduced it dominated because it was a better design and it was more efficient at the same size displacement as the 4-stroke.

In response the 4T given repeated displacement advantages in the rule books and eventually (the AMA) allow Yamaha to come in and dominate with it's 400yzf. Were people crying foul then!?

And(the AMA) gave them 100% displacement advantage in the 125 class with 250's. And then another bump to 450 against the 250 2T.

These manufactures had to go in and "retool," as you call it, their entire production over to 4T technology in order to compete. And you're worried about them going back and doing something they've already done? So what. If they want to win they will do what they have to do to win.

Why was the AMA rulebook always so focused on making all the favorable rule changes for the 4-stroke DC!?

You mention Marvin Musquin coming in and smoking the 250 class. I say let him. But what you're saying means jack crap in world where that 250 2T has to race against 450 4T's.

And saying that you no longer care about any of our views as fans and racers alike just because one guy on the internet told you to catch cancer!?

Then I'm sorely disappointed in you, that you hold this position in our industry and our sport, and can be swayed by something as petty as that...
JB 19
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JB 19 10/5/2010 12:57am
10/5/2010 12:57am
MotoGuido wrote:
I find this whole issue extremely ironic. When the 2-stroke was first introduced it dominated because it was a better design and it was more efficient...
I find this whole issue extremely ironic. When the 2-stroke was first introduced it dominated because it was a better design and it was more efficient at the same size displacement as the 4-stroke.

In response the 4T given repeated displacement advantages in the rule books and eventually (the AMA) allow Yamaha to come in and dominate with it's 400yzf. Were people crying foul then!?

And(the AMA) gave them 100% displacement advantage in the 125 class with 250's. And then another bump to 450 against the 250 2T.

These manufactures had to go in and "retool," as you call it, their entire production over to 4T technology in order to compete. And you're worried about them going back and doing something they've already done? So what. If they want to win they will do what they have to do to win.

Why was the AMA rulebook always so focused on making all the favorable rule changes for the 4-stroke DC!?

You mention Marvin Musquin coming in and smoking the 250 class. I say let him. But what you're saying means jack crap in world where that 250 2T has to race against 450 4T's.

And saying that you no longer care about any of our views as fans and racers alike just because one guy on the internet told you to catch cancer!?

Then I'm sorely disappointed in you, that you hold this position in our industry and our sport, and can be swayed by something as petty as that...
When you say "you" are your refering to Davey Coombs? Do you not realize that Davey has only been running the show for 2 years? (maybe 3?) ..........and only outdoors at that............
MotoGuido
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MotoGuido 10/5/2010 1:18am
10/5/2010 1:18am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 1:25am
Obviously not. The AMA is what we're talking about. Which he represents. So that's what I mean. I do realize that. I suppose it is misleading. I'll edit it.
DC
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DC 10/5/2010 3:35am
10/5/2010 3:35am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 3:36am
Just get SX and all five factories and all the teams that have invested in four-strokes to make the switch too. That's where I lost steam on that mountain. I can take the cancer letters, and people like you who pile this all on me. I was a Cycle News stringer in 1997, not the AMA. And right now, I only work on the 12 outdoor nationals, which utilize an AMA rulebook.There is also a SX series you know. I can't quite change that all on my own, and most of the professional racing establishment do not want to change right now either. But no one asks or blames them, just me. And that's what's disappointing, MotoGuido.

And welcome to Vital.



DC

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JustMX
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JustMX 10/5/2010 3:47am
10/5/2010 3:47am
two sayings come to mind:

The problem with mud wrestling a pig is that you will soon realize that the pig is having a good time.

and

Never argue with an idiot because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience
DC
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DC 10/5/2010 3:59am
10/5/2010 3:59am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 4:15am
That is a great point JustMX that I forgot this morning getting ready for school. Back to the future.

Or maybe just the present.



DC

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Kinetic1
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Kinetic1 10/5/2010 4:08am
10/5/2010 4:08am
Maybe we should let Roger Edmonson write the rule book...

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Weeks381fan
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Weeks381fan 10/5/2010 4:12am
10/5/2010 4:12am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 4:13am
Were people raising hell years ago when there was nothing but two strokes at the tracks? I don't ever remember a debate about people crying to bring four strokes into the picture. The racing was awesome, the bikes were awesome, the sport was somewhat affordable, etc. Why did they have to go screw it up in the first place? Everything was great! I pray that one day the two strokes will take over again. Paying 7-8k for a four stroke that has major maintenance costs attached to it is not reasonable for most people.
JB 19
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JB 19 10/5/2010 4:56am
10/5/2010 4:56am
I'll say it again........99.9% of us who ride and race dirt bikes can ride or race a 2 stroke whenever we want.

The other .1% of the sport that it affects don't seem to mind that they are racing 4 strokes.

More choices and cool stuff to play on than ever before.......but lets all fight and bitch about it.
Flesh206
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Flesh206 10/5/2010 7:28am
10/5/2010 7:28am
I'm proud to say that none of the manufactures have gotten a cent from me when it comes to 4 stroke bikes.
couchdriver412 10/5/2010 7:59am
10/5/2010 7:59am
DC wrote:
Just get SX and all five factories and all the teams that have invested in four-strokes to make the switch too. That's where I lost steam...
Just get SX and all five factories and all the teams that have invested in four-strokes to make the switch too. That's where I lost steam on that mountain. I can take the cancer letters, and people like you who pile this all on me. I was a Cycle News stringer in 1997, not the AMA. And right now, I only work on the 12 outdoor nationals, which utilize an AMA rulebook.There is also a SX series you know. I can't quite change that all on my own, and most of the professional racing establishment do not want to change right now either. But no one asks or blames them, just me. And that's what's disappointing, MotoGuido.

And welcome to Vital.



DC

MX Sports
So are you saying all 5 manufacturers were on board in 1997. No. Make it fair, that's all we ask. Until you do that, this will continue, sales will drop, and people showing up at tracks will dwindle. DC in effect you represent at the highest level all the folks that own your mom and pop tracks that continue to fail because of noise and cost.
Triton
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Triton 10/5/2010 8:59am
10/5/2010 8:59am
There is no light switch for DC to flip. The fight to the top is not always the most direct route...

There could be a back door to all of this and has been indirectly hit upon in other ways. I'll explain. 5 OEM's, 2 championships. Add a third as the talked about 125 support / pro-sport class. Give it full entitlement like the other 2. This would give KTM and other 2 stroke players a championship to own, how long do you think it would take for the other OEM's to want a piece of a premier championship on the pro level. That's stage 1. That get's 2 Strokes back on the board. Stage 2 get 250 / 250f parity going. Stage 3 send the 450's the way of the 500's.

Like I said there is no light switch, so start smart, it will not happen all at once, that is proven and even shown by the 400 to 450 transition.
gaines1016
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gaines1016 10/5/2010 9:01am
10/5/2010 9:01am
quite honesty, i am appalled at the methods some of you choose to try to make your points.

the idea that you could make positive changes in your favor with this kind of negativity and disrespect is laughable.
in2mx
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in2mx 10/5/2010 9:39am
10/5/2010 9:39am
This is dumb cant be competitive on 2 strokes. even if u had 250 2 stroke against 250f. 250f is way better!
mx-frog
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mx-frog 10/5/2010 9:40am
10/5/2010 9:40am
Signed 2563, the Japan companys with do every thing in there power to stop this! You will never see a small up-start company in MX ever again,the cost to produce and R/D and competitve 4-stroke motor is out of anyone's league. This cost us fans/racer jobs and excitement! Race promotors by letting the J-companys rule the sport are intern ruining it.Angry Follow the money$$$$$$$$$$$
mx_563
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mx_563 10/5/2010 9:49am
10/5/2010 9:49am
DC wrote:
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross...
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross and SX. We run them even at our amateur races, but there's never the fear there of Marvin Musquin showing up on a factory 250 KTM two-stroke and smoking the field,

We did the tests, TWMX did the tests, MXA did the tests: the two-stroke 250 still outruns a 250F and by opening the door to help privateers, you just give factory riders more of an advantage in that they could choose which bike to ride when. I know you mean well, but i personally don't see how it could work and not have an effect that hurts the racing more than it helps it.

But it was the guy who wished I had cancer that really ended this fight for me. That one hit a little close to home. Sorry.

DC
MX Sports
Somebody help me out.....does the petition suggest putting a 250 smoker up against a 250F??? That seems to be the crux of DC's argument (see quote, above). Everything else in this thread seems to be a finger pointing session with regards to the extinction of 2-strokes (off topic if you ask me).

I sympathize with DC for all the heat he has taken in this thread. I do not hold DC responsible for the "demise" of the 2-strokes. But coming back to the topic of this petition, I contend that Marvin Musquin on a factory built 150cc 2-stroke is not going to be any worse for the privateer than Marvin Musquin on a factory built 250F. Villopoto on a factory KX300 is not going to be any worse for the privateer than Villopoto on a KX450F.

I gotta believe that most of the 2-stroke tooling, and all of the knowledge, is still in the hands of the factories. Surely it would not be such a huge investment for Kawi (for example) to build up some KX250s....assuming they would even want to.

Come on DC, just sign the petition and all this "DC bashing" will go away.....
seth505
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seth505 10/5/2010 10:23am
10/5/2010 10:23am
in2mx wrote:
This is dumb cant be competitive on 2 strokes. even if u had 250 2 stroke against 250f. 250f is way better!
I bet you someone has passed you while riding a 2stroke before.
ktm125
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ktm125 10/5/2010 10:36am
10/5/2010 10:36am Edited Date/Time 10/5/2010 10:36am
DC wrote:
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross...
I do care but after being berated for not getting it through last time, I have kind of given up on the idea for pro motocross and SX. We run them even at our amateur races, but there's never the fear there of Marvin Musquin showing up on a factory 250 KTM two-stroke and smoking the field,

We did the tests, TWMX did the tests, MXA did the tests: the two-stroke 250 still outruns a 250F and by opening the door to help privateers, you just give factory riders more of an advantage in that they could choose which bike to ride when. I know you mean well, but i personally don't see how it could work and not have an effect that hurts the racing more than it helps it.

But it was the guy who wished I had cancer that really ended this fight for me. That one hit a little close to home. Sorry.

DC
MX Sports
mx_563 wrote:
Somebody help me out.....does the petition suggest putting a 250 smoker up against a 250F??? That seems to be the crux of DC's argument (see quote...
Somebody help me out.....does the petition suggest putting a 250 smoker up against a 250F??? That seems to be the crux of DC's argument (see quote, above). Everything else in this thread seems to be a finger pointing session with regards to the extinction of 2-strokes (off topic if you ask me).

I sympathize with DC for all the heat he has taken in this thread. I do not hold DC responsible for the "demise" of the 2-strokes. But coming back to the topic of this petition, I contend that Marvin Musquin on a factory built 150cc 2-stroke is not going to be any worse for the privateer than Marvin Musquin on a factory built 250F. Villopoto on a factory KX300 is not going to be any worse for the privateer than Villopoto on a KX450F.

I gotta believe that most of the 2-stroke tooling, and all of the knowledge, is still in the hands of the factories. Surely it would not be such a huge investment for Kawi (for example) to build up some KX250s....assuming they would even want to.

Come on DC, just sign the petition and all this "DC bashing" will go away.....
Because that would be like asking someone on Honda's payroll to sign the petition...
newmann
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newmann 10/5/2010 11:17am
10/5/2010 11:17am
DC ,you should take a good bit of all this as a compliment as to how highly most of us think of you and what you do for motocross. I can't see you letting one idiot (or a dozen) ruin it for the whole bunch. Also , it points toward how little confidence most all of us including myself, AMA Life Member # 649559, have in the AMA. They were the first ones to tell me that they had nothing to do with rules and class structure in your events. Of course it's clearly stated that the AMA rulebook applies but they do not realize that.

I'll request it once again, a six round 125cc National Championship that takes place on the weekends that the WMA events don't run. Bring them back, you know they are needed. And once again, I'll sponsor a $500.00 Holeshot Award for each event as well as provide a bike for one deserving rider. Just give us fair time to prepare. Why would any OEM's complain about a 125 class??

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